A Pagan's Blog

A Pagan's Blog

On the Limits of Science

posted by Gus diZerega | 1:28pm Thursday July 9, 2009

I want to return to a discussion of the scientific method that arose during discussions following my post on animal morality. That will be also set the stage for part 2 of Paganism and America’s Future, as well as keeping a promise to Franklin.


The modern world has been so transformed by science that many people have come to believe either that the scientific method provides the gold standard for knowledge, or that any question can be answered by intelligent application of scientific reasoning.  Both are mistaken beliefs.

Scientific methods arose to try and find as impersonal as possible means by which very different people could agree about something.  Measurement, prediction, and a repeatable experiment all proved very effective, and helped lay the groundwork for a huge mass of knowledge people could rely on in transforming the world.

But there is a hidden metaphysics in treating this approach as adequate for approaching truth as closely as we are able.  It assumes that the most fundamental aspects of the world are amenable to these methods.  This is why for many years mind was treated as an epiphenomena, not really ‘real,’ or perhaps some kind of fluid or something.  It is why modern western medicine assumed for a long time that good treatment focused only on the body. It is why when I was an undergraduate in college my psychology textbook, written from a “behaviorist” perspective, described us as emitting behavior.  We did not do things – which suggests some kind of mental phenomena as basic, we emitted behavior and with appropriate conditioning, we would emit different behavior.

Lots of good and complex critiques of this stuff and its contemporary equivalents have been written and it’s a subject too complicated for a blog to describe in detail.  So I want to make a different point:  How could sane people ever come to believe such things?

If, as Richard Dawkins put it in The Selfish Gene: “We are survival machines — robot vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes,” then why should anyone care about anyone else?  The answer “because we are programmed that way” does not work very well once someone faces a real dilemma between what is personally advantageous but requires hurting another, and refraining from doing so and not hurting another.  

Because so much of what we perceive is ‘theory impregnated,’ what we perceive is shaped by what we expect to perceive.  This has been demonstrated over and over again.  If I believe I am programmed to serve my genes, that belief will influence what I notice about myself and others, and what I do not notice.  If I believe it strongly enough, I will not see counter evidence. 

This is why I always taught my students to hold their beliefs lightly – so they would be open to new insights.  This is also why I have long said becoming a Pagan made me a better social scientist: I knew the world was far beyond my understanding – so while I do the best I can, I know I am almost certainly missing some important stuff, and had better keep my eyes and ears open.

But for those wedded to the scientific method as our only or only reliable means to knowledge, given that  they ‘know’ that consciousness is not a fundamental factor in the universe, thry have two big dilemmas.  

Everyone ‘knows’ that he or she is conscious and it plays no role in science, so if awareness is unique to us, then we are fundamentally distinct from the world.  Yet we evolved within and from it.  There is a disconnect here, but I think this explains why so many scientists who accept Darwin still try so hard to find a qualitative distinction between ourselves and other life.

Second, this distinction between us and the non human has to be observable for that to be true.  So over and over people have tried to find a distinction between ourselves and animals – only to have those distinctions break down.  Do we make tools?  Well they some of them do as well, as we now know.  Do we have language?  Now we know that some animals can learn English,   and others have complex means of communication we do not understand. 

But morality long remained a human preserve even though in a very real sense, from the standpoint of PURE scientific methodology, it could not be measured or predicted or experimented because it refers to our unobservable motives. 

The experience of consciousness is not measurable.  And here is a paradox: science matters to conscious beings, but has nothing beyond the highly speculative to say about the consciousness that makes it matter. Indeed, all of scientific methodology presupposes other minds who can rationally evaluate the evidence I bring to make my case! It presupposes what it cannot prove exists by the use of its own methods, because the methods have to be convincing to another mind.  That is their entire rationale.

When we look for moral behavior in the natural world we are looking for conscious behavior.  Ants cooperate, but so far as we know there does not seem to be enough awareness there to call them moral because ants do not seem able to choose a course of action based on it helping another when it could have chose another course that was not.

But when we see a monkey or elephant act in a way we would regard as moral, we do not use scientific methods to make that judgment any more than we do when we judge another person as moral or immoral.  We look at what they did, the context of their actions, and whether they are enough like us to make that judgment.  We interpret what we see.  Interpretation is an act of consciousness, and is essential in recognizing consciousness in another, whether it be an animal or a person, and is equally essential, and I think in the same way, in judging whether an action is moral or immoral.  It requires us to be able to interpret the MEAING the action had for another.

My argument does not mean I think scientific methods are flawed.  Not at all.  It only means it is a mistake to claim these methods are an adequate way for encompassing ALL genuine knowledge, or for eliminating all false belief.  

I think this point is an essential step in recognizing the reasonableness of a Pagan view of the world as a place of intrinsic value, indeed, as a sacred place.



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Comments read comments(5)
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Meical ab Awen

posted July 9, 2009 at 8:19 pm


Another excellent post. Damn! I’m starting to sound like a brainless fan…
>>The modern world has been so transformed by science that many people have come to believe either that the scientific method provides the gold standard for knowledge, or that any question can be answered by intelligent application of scientific reasoning. Both are mistaken beliefs.



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Thomas

posted July 9, 2009 at 11:02 pm


@Meical ab Awen
I agree. I see no reason why there should be any discord between any sufficiently self-examining faith and science.
There is, however, one sticky point here. As Gus mentioned at the top, science is the best method for discovering objective data and drawing conclusions from that data. The scientific method, when properly applied, produces firm, reproducible results that expand the body of human knowledge. What many people fail to internalize is that science wins any applicable argument. If a theological precept is contradicted by a scientific discovery then, precisely because of its objectivity and reproducibility, we must concede to science.
Science, of course, is not the only way of addressing, understanding and knowing the world. It is, however, the only one that is not solipsistic. One can make a spiritual discovery, feel a divine presence or have a religious revelation and under exactly the same circumstances another person might experience nothing at all. Given this, there is no way to know for certain whether the person who feels nothing is somehow spiritually stunted or whether the religious person is delusional or whether both experiences are completely legitmate. Both are possible and indistinguishable.
The real problem lies when a person, or billions of people for that matter, come to believe something that is demonstrably false. Young Earth Creationists are the most obvious example but there are a number of Pagans, a minority but a significant minority, that believe patently untrue things. Many Pagans believe that they can dowse for missing objects or precious substances with lengths of bent wire. Many believe that there is an additional planet on an orbit of 3000 years that will collide with the Earth in the next decade. Some pagans legitimately believe that they can turn into animals.The examples go on and on.
Science and spirituality are not at odds. Each can profoundly enhance the other but we must make a distinction between truth and fact. One exists within us and one es extrinsic to us. Failing to tell them apart can be outright dangerous.



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Makarios

posted July 10, 2009 at 1:45 am


I’m not sure that it’s possible for a scientific discovery to contradict a theological precept. Science and theology operate in different universes of discourse. To use the matter of evolution of species as a case in point: a theory of evolution that confines itself to empirical science must be agnostic about the existence or non-existence of a divine designer behind the observed phenomena.
Where problems arise is in cases where believers attempt to use theological precepts as a base for supposed scientific theories (as do the young-earth creationists); or where scientists (or others) attempt to use the scientific method to prove or disprove theological constructs.



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Apuleius Platonicus

posted July 10, 2009 at 10:10 am


I agree completely with Gus’ main point, but it also needs to be emphasized that there is nothing inherently “modern” about science, including “empirical” and/or “experimental” science.
Galileo Galilei learned the value of doing experiments from his father, Vincenzo, who, in turn, was one of the leading musical theorists of his day. Central to music theory is the branch of physics called acoustics, a science in which Vincenzo conducted meticulous experiments on the properties of vibrating strings – just as the earliest Pythagoreans had done two millennia before then. Vincenzo was part of the resurgence of interest in Pythagoreanism that was going on at the time.
Johannes Kepler was also a Pythagorean, and Isaac Newton was a Hermeticist and a practicing Alchemist who produced his own English language translation of the Emerald Tablet of Hermes.
Apuleius



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Franklin Evans

posted July 11, 2009 at 1:04 pm


I have a low-intensity, ongoing annoyed feeling around science and how it is discussed. I offer this view here not as a personal reaction to any posts so far, but as a general complaint… okay, and it may sound a little like whining. ;-)
I believe that examination of the gestalt for any topic is critical for a clear understanding of it. When that gestalt encompasses a significant chronology, then the historical record surely must be examined. However — and this goes to my previous comment to you about context, Apuleius — comparisons to the past are too often presented as straw man arguments, and usually actually are made of straw.
Referring to modern science is like referring to modern paganism. The connections to the past are there, the importance of those connections cannot be denied, but there is mostly no basis for even the most superficially detailed comparison between then and now.
You may now return to your regularly scheduled discussion. This message brought to you by a pagan who used to frequently hit modern Christians over the head with the Inquisition, the Crusades and a mythic conquest of Europe. ;-D



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