Hey! Way cool info – especially to me because my birthday is August 12th.

You have written that Jupiter and Venus were conjunct, then bring in the sentence saying that Saturn was considered as protector of the Jews. Was Saturn then also conjuct Venus and Jupiter at that time?

The serious flaw to this latest theory is that ancient Magi combined the astronomical with what today is considered the astrological. A credible celestial pattern for Jesus would need to show something of his fate and be testable against his life and even
Christ events and controversies historically.
This June pattern focused on Jupiter and Venus would better fit lifestyles of the rich and famous, not someone who will know serious tragedy, be crucified and not, politically, arrive at kingship.
Because scientists are respected and astrologers mostly aren’t this latest theory is heard and publicized no matter how improbable it is. As a published author in religion and a doctor of religious studies and a qualified astrologer I have now for years suffered the indifference and what is sometimes the dismissive arrogance of publishing and media when I propose I have discovered the true data of Christ’s birth. Members of the astrological establishment are hardly more helpful – one runs against objections like the one that no astrologer should practice rectification which in this instance one has to do to reach a birth time.
Whatever, the pattern I have is so accurate and sensitive the horoscope of Christ works to this day for Jesus issues such as even this latest report. And because all time is one even modern name/place/concept asteroids (I’ve applied 350) work retroactively with the chart. Names of Christ’s ancestors appear in his family and origins house and much else about him is remarkably shown though one might need to be into theology to catch all the messages. (Some features like Part of the Father conjunct Aeternitas (Eternity) or Part of Brothers conjunct James are easy enough for anyone to grasp and all against statistical probability like much else in the pattern).
The burden of proof is so overwhelming and extraordinary, exact as a fingerprint I often say, that if anyone actually troubled to look into the matter instead of dismissing astrology with a wave of the hands – “why not take your Jesus myths to a theosophical publisher” was the comment from one house – there couldn’t be much question this is the solution to a 2000 year old mystery. But who cares? The same story that supplies us the mystery of Christ’s birth star also tells us about “no room at the inn”. So still today there may be purely spiritual and psychological issues to be overcome in getting to the truth of the matter.

I think the story of Jesus, if he ever existed, has been so intertwined with the mythos of the multitude of Sacrificed Gods who died or were killed for the good of their people, that extracting any truth is a hopeless task. The Star is a nice story, but keep in mind that it also appears at the Roman god Mithras’ birth, complete with angels and a stable.
Like the Arthurian saga, the Christ story has many interpretations, variations and links to other myths. I find it rather liberating to see the greater picture rather than cling to a literalist view.

It’s that time of year again when all sorts of theories are published about the Bethlehem star.
Here in the UK, David Hughes, Professor of Astronomy at Sheffield University has discovered that there was a series of conjunctions between Jupiter and Saturn in 7BC and believes that may have attracted the attention of Zoroastrian priests in Persia indicating that the time had come for the “old king” Saturn to be replaced by a “new king” Jupiter (the royal star) Would this really have been enough for them to make a 500 mile journey from Babylon to Jerusalem?
While David Reneke may be right about his Jupiter/Venus conjunctions his timing may be out as Herod is recorded has having died in 4BC. And as he is one of the main figures in the Jesus story who knows what the “real” truth may be.
We even have an astronomer at the European Space Centre suggesting they witnessed a star entering its supernova phase. This would have resulted in a massive surge of energy and matter and would have caused a great deal of interest on Earth as it would have been unique.
Maybe it’s better that we are never quite sure so that we can retain some of the mystery that makes the story so special.

I once saw a TLC program on this subject. In this documentary, a group of astronomers aksi did the cosmic rewind thing and theorized that the “star” was a supernova and they approximated that Jesus’s birth occurred in September which would make him a Virgo. I thought was plausible given his life work focused on service, healing and teaching, all Virgo atributes.

Dave Reneke’s reply:
This is in reply to the large number of inquiries I’ve had on this story. As I thought,it evoked considerable response, but PLEASE read it correctly!
One person who replied here but apparently doesn’t have enough faith in their convictions to identify themselves- preferring to go by the name of “Your Name’- says: “A credible celestial pattern for Jesus would need to show something of his fate and be testable against his life and even Christ events and controversies historically.” I tried to find a recorded biblical starting point but, as you’ll read below, I couldn’t find any consensus of opinion, no dates, times etc that I could rely on. Everyone, you included, have their own dates as ‘proof’ of when he lived, died etc… so who the heck is right?
This person also goes on: “Because scientists are respected and astrologers mostly aren’t this latest theory is heard and publicized no matter how improbable it is.:” PHOOEY, open any magazine at the supermarket or grab any newspaper and you’ll see a half page, and soemtimes a FULL page devoted to a whole lot of made up garbage called “your Stars”- try and get thenm to print a few lines of a major astronomical discovery and see how you go!
Look, I didn’t intend to validate anyone’s birth date. The story was simply an ambitious scientific exercise, using modern astronomical software, to go back and reconstruct the night sky of biblical times to either validate or refute the existence of a “Xmas Star.” What it actually implied was not tantamount to my research, and neither do I claim my work was unique. I simply followed on from previous speculation and investigation from other similarly confused souls (err, no pun intended) like myself attempting to puzzle out another ‘fact’ or ‘fantasy’ story.
We take too many things for granted today because we’ve become complacent. Here’s a tip – question everything, it’s called ‘curiosity and it’s what made us stop chiselling round wheels out of square blocks of stone and start building spaceships. I have a simple philosophy. Fill what is empty. Empty what’s full. And scratch where it itches?
The chronological baseline I used was Matthew’s version of the bible, the first book of the New Testament. Among all the conjecture, confusion, hyperbole, and general misinformation it’s the only one that has all the key players assembled in the same place in (generally) the same time.
For the die-hards out there, here’s some of the text. Oh, and don’t shoot me, I’m only the messenger, OK?
“Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him… After listening to the king, they went on their way. And behold, the star that they had seen when it rose went before them until it came to rest over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy.” Matthew 2
The Christmas Star, or the Star of Bethlehem, is mentioned only in chapter two of the book of Matthew. But this story of a bright star leading the magi, or wise men, to the birth of Jesus Christ has become an iconic symbol of the Christmas season. It sounds fantastic, and even has miraculous or divine overtones, but it could have happened.
The French scientist, Descartes once stated, “In order to reach the truth it is necessary, once in awhile, to put everything in doubt… as far as possible.” This rule seems to be very applicable to the discussion of the evolution of Christianity in our tragic time. I realised this story would become an emotive issue. It cuts to the very core of our existence and questions our very place in this amazing and complex Universe.
I’ve received hundreds of emails from all around the world on this story with mixed and insightful sentiments. I’ve been featured on some of the biggest programs in the world, from a live spot on Romanian TV complete with interpreters (really!) and dozens of global radio stations to prime spots on major U.S. networked breakfast programs, like GMA – Good Morning America.
The number of websites my story has appeared on is countless. I chuckled at a few abridged versions – one has me as a research “team leader” using “complex computer software” (its Starry Night guys) and another claims I’m trying to change the day Xmas is celebrated to June 17. Oh, I almost forgot the one where I declared Jesus to be a Gemini! Go figure.
I must say, in researching this story, I’m surprised how there is no absolute, undisputed record of Jesus’ birth date and the date of his death. Indeed, many accounts place his existence in the 2nd, 4th and even 6th decades BC! There is so much disagreement and general discord among students of the Bible about everything from actual dates key figures lived to whether in fact they existed at all. For instance, the biblical ‘Magi.’
There is, I believe, no mention at all of December 25 in the Bible in connection with Jesus. Apparently it is an arbitrary figure laid down by the church, perhaps a dozen centuries ago, to celebrate or align with various religious festivals. I’m not a theologian, I’m not even scholastically gifted when it comes to biblical prophecy or the strict application of biblical verse, but I have my beliefs. In trying to unravel history the more simple anything is, the less liable it is to be disordered in my view.
For arguably the most important person who ever lived, and someone who started a column of progress that still exists today with billions of followers, nobody can tell me with absolute unchallenged certainty when he walked the earth. It’s sad for I want it to be true! For most it is – but I just wanted some little bit of proof… can’t blame me for that, I’m human.
I do however firmly believe this type of retrospective investigation, archaeo-astronomy if you will, is a minefield so badly populated with hidden traps, turns and disguised meanings it would be impossible for anyone to get to the truth. There are simply too many loose ends!
OK, so what do we do with all this? So what if certain dates don’t relate to certain figures. It’s still a great story. We should stop right here and remember the reason we celebrate as we do this time of the year and ponder over the meaning of it all. For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who don’t understand … no explanation is possible.
Merry Xmas.

My apologies I see that I seem to have slipped and not put my name to comments above re my researches on the star. The intention was not to throw out sensational ideas while taking no responsibility for them. I’ve entered my name here before on less controversial issues.
I stand by everything I’ve said, I repeat my case is overwhelming and Reneke has no conception of what I mean about the difficulty, despite being published, of dealing with media and publishing on the Christ theme. A little idea of it with serious critique of Australian media is given in a lead feature article published this month in New Zealand’s Investigate Magazine and even this article cut out much I had indicated re purely celestial signs making my points. Reneke speaks from a position of almost dismissive privelege and I am not dealing with or trying to rival popular sun sign astrology and astrologers for attention in this area.
Apart from Reneke’s reply I am rather intrigued, though, by the kind of non response to my claims which immediately interposes that perhaps it’s best not to know the truth, it’s good to have the mystery. Would we say that about even Shakespeare who has spawned a whole industry in search of his origins and the biographical facts about him? It is the rarest or rare historians who proposes Jesus never existed, it is simply assumed by almost all scholars that he did exist; therefore it seems almost incumbent upon us and useful in many ways if possible to get to as many facts as possible and I do believe I have come across many things worth knowing.
While obviously it isn’t proof positive of being right it’s interesting from the astrological point of view that among other things I first came to my conclusions, since then much expanded, many years ago with Uranus, the astrologer’s planet, conjuncting the Galactic Centre, which is supposed to register events in religion which I believe this was.

What a great discussion, and Dave thanks for coming onboard for the discussion.
Rollan, I find your comment on the conjunction of Uranus to the GC very interesting but of course that’s something that will happen every 84 years as Uranus makes the rounds of the zodiac. I believe it was 29 AD when Pluto entered Sagittarius which was around the time that the mission of Jesus was supposed to have occurred.
The lack of historical evidence that a person such as Jesus existed is compelling, and you’ll certainly find lots of information from the skeptical point of view in this blog. But people want to believe what they believe, and this is the power of religion.

I just wanted to add that everyone should know that Jesus Christ was NOT born on December 25th! How long must we go on celebrating the greed of our society and relieving the long cold winter sales drought? I wish more people would celebrate his actual birth in the Spring (in March or April) around Easter. The Greek’s celebrate his birth then, why doesn’t the rest of the world? Please comment and have a nice holiday anyway. Doesn’t really matter to me as I will be working, just as I did on Thanksgiving and New Year’s Day.

Rollan,
I’m sorry you consider my response to the post about the Christmas Star to be a non response because I suggested that some people may prefer not to know the truth about the story (by which I meant the whole thing, not just whether or not Jesus existed and when) because they are happy to have a mystery. Not everyone will want to know the “truth” and surely on many levels religion was “invented” to explain the inexplicable to those who needed an explanation. For that which could not be explained, faith was the answer.
As for Shakespeare, at least we have not only contemporary reports of his existence but also his own writings, namely his plays. Also they are clear about the times in which they were written by the style of language used, references to actual historical figures of the times, places etc. And of course we have the Globe Theatre where his plays were performed. Actual proof? It may not be complete but is more than circumstantial.
Unfortunately as far as I’m aware there are not contemporary documents that have been proven to have been written by Jesus himself. There are a myriad of “books” written by disciples both included and excluded from the Bible. Part of the problem is in the fact that the Bible is not a contemporary source having been written 4 centuries after the time Jesus is believed to have lived. Like all archaeology, a picture can be built up about the life of people from over 2000 years ago but until we can travel back it time and witness it for ourselves then proof may be questionable.
Saying that, I am not religious in any sense, but I am interested in what you have to say as it is clearly something you feel you have a lot of evidence for and would love to read and understand more about your research. You have mentioned publishing but I don’t know where to find your work. If you read this and would be prepared to give more info or a link, then I would like to follow it up further.

I believe it was the King Maker Formation of Jupiter conjunct Saturn in Pisces (the sign of Israel) which occurred only once every 800 years (the previous conjunction in Pisces produced the birth of Moses). I believe this is what drew the Magi’s attention (Jupiter rising opposite the Sun while conjunct Saturn in Pisces), i.e., they knew a King was about to be born in Israel.
This conjunction occurred in 7 B.C., and repeated 3 times that year (May, September and December). This conjunction was also foretold 10 years in advance via the Almanac of Sippur written on a cuneiform tablet in 17 B.C., which the Magi were likely aware of.
Nobody but the Magi were aware of the formation in the sky. There was no brilliant supernova in the sky or Herod and his priests and scribes would have seen it. Jupiter and Saturn are conjunct every 20 years, but not in Pisces.
In May of 7 B.C. this conjunction would not have been visible because these two stars traversed the sky in the day time and were on the other side of the earth from Israel at night.
Four months later in September the Magi, who were still in Persia, would have seen Juiter and Saturn rise about sunset, opposite the Sun, “we saw his star in the east at it’s rising” (Matt. 2.2). This is an astronomical term called “acronycal rising” or this object was rising right after sunset on one side of the earth (Isreal and Persia) while the sun was setting on the other side of the earth. This only occured on Sept. 15, 7 B.C.
Another clue that Jesus was born after sunset was the shepherds tending their flocks by night when the angel appeared to them and told them the Christ child had been born that same day (the Jewish “day” starts at sunset). Notice that the Shepherds didn’t see anything unusual in the sky either. It was the angel who announced Christ’s birth to them.
The wise men came to see the new King at the 3rd conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn in December. We know it wasn’t at Christ’s birth because Joseph and Mary were living in a house in Bethlehem by then and shortly after the Magi came and warned Joseph about Herod, Mary and Joseph left immediately for Egypt. There are two things that had to have occurred first before they left: Jesus circumcised on the 8th day and presented in the temple on the 40th day after birth. So the Magi could not have arrived at Christ’s birth but at least 48 days after his birth.
As the wise men left Herod’s palace in Jerusalem, in the evening, heading towards Bethlehem they would have seen this formation in the sky and knowing how stars travel across the sky they would have known that Jupiter would reach it’s Zenith (highest point–signifies authorities or rulers) in a few hours above Bethlehem (see Matt 2:9b) and they would be able to use it as a guide find the child.
There was only one day when the stars were in the right position to portray the birth of Christ (Sept 15, 7 B.C.–2nd conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn with Jupiter at it’s rising) and only one day when the Magi Visited the Christ Child (December 7.B.C.- when Jupiter and Saturn reached it’s Zenith over Bethlehem).
All of the above is corroborated by Rollan’s studies on the birth of Christ. You can find his book by searching for “Signs for a Messiah” by Rollan McCleary.
Jupiter/Venus conjunctions would not have drawn the Magi to Isreal.

Thanks for the lively discussion folks. It really is enlightening to see a small piece I wrote travel so far and evoke such a response.
To date I guess the replies on forums and various web-pages numbers in the hundreds – BUT here’s the worrying part. I have at least … not about – at LEAST 10 differing accounts of Jesus’ birth. All place him at varying times in history from 7BC to 2BC … and all these people say theirs is “proof” – I have now 9 different “proofs” of what the Xmas star “really was.” I’ve been sent/given mountains of scripture verses to go and look at and dozens of faxes with more biblical verses extracted for me to “look at.” What are they saying? Well, try this: I have a comet “I have Proof…” I have another person with “proof” it was a joining of venus, Jupiter, Saturn and soem obscure star years before. I have exploding star and meteors, I have … Oh well, you get the point.
I also have proof” from one fellow who tells me now there were not three wise men at all … he has “proof” it was a voice ” an angelic announcement” only that led followers to Bethlehem.” Another guy has “Real Proof, Please believe me” that the star was really a hovering UFO because it started to move in the sky.(Oh Really!!!!)
What worries me is that if Matthew, being closer than you or I to the actual event, got it wrong (as some have suggested) by 20 years then … what hope has anyone got now?
My conclusion? You’ve got a real problem on your hands. PLEASE don’t reply to this with more “PROOF” – you haven’t got it, sorry. All you have is your own interpretstion of multi-written accounts of an event that was written centuries/decades after it occurred?

BUT here’s the worrying part. I have at least … not about – at LEAST 10 differing accounts of Jesus’ birth.
No worries Dave, most of the people who hang out here are right there with you.

I believe it was the King Maker Formation of Jupiter conjunct Saturn in Pisces (the sign of Israel) which occurred only once every 800 years
Interesting points. The conjunction of Jupiter to Saturn occurred in Pisces about every 60 years between 125 bce and 54 ce. The 60-year cycle of Jupiter/Saturn in Pisces occurs every 675 years or so which would have placed the previous conjunction in Pisces at around 800 bce and the one before that at 1475. I believe most bible historians place the birth of Moses at around 1400 bce, so I suppose the conjunction in Pisces could have occurred around then.
Still, there’s no proof, as Dave says, that the events that are said to correlate to the astrology/astronomy actually occurred. The astronomy does not prove the events.

Rossa, and also Reneke if he is still in correspondence ,
Socrates like Jesus wrote nothing but we know about him and believe he existed. Also the gospels certainly weren’t written four centuries after Jesus. In fact, if you read Carsten Peter Thiede’s The Jesus Papyrus (1996) you will read evidence for a fragment of Matthew’s gospel that may be very early indeed, certainly well before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. Even skeptical scholars don’t put the latest gospel, usually considered John (though some theories are now making him the first) later than around 100 AD.
You ask about my work. The previous correspondent, Stella, has mentioned a book of mine published in New Zealand and called Signs for a Messiah. I regard it as a little old fashioned in relation to the information I now have and it is more specialized in a traditional astrological way than the sort of material I am currently trying to get put out. However it will provide some solid enough ideas if you want to follow them up. If you go to Google books at
http://books.google.com/books?id=LPveAAAACAAJ&dq=Signs+for+a+Messiah
you will see where the book is available and also read a couple of reviews of it – very favourable from a reviewer of The Mountain Astrologer who however gives the wrong details of the specific chart. This the magazine later apologized for though never, despite the mixture of great review and embarrassing for me disinformation, allowing me any feature or interview on my work nor subsequently any exposure for my Pentecost chart for Christianity, data which works to this day and should be known and used throughout the astrological community.
One of the problems with the astro community is it is often so neo-pagan and out of touch with, or just disinterested in, biblical and historical scholarship it has blinkers on regarding what can reasonably be known. If its members ever get round to testing data for Jesus’ life they don’t understand enough about matters like Passover datings or how people’s ages were counted in Israel (like “Jesus was about thirty” can mean between 30 and 35) and various historical problems to be able to erect proper tests. Thus for example you will almost always have tests for a crucifixion in 33 AD.
Reneke, or so it seems from latest correspondence, doesn’t want “proofs” because he doesn’t believe they’re possible. (In which case one wonders why bother to offer speculations). I am truly weary and with reason of the high handedness of the astronomical establishment. Reneke should, for example, go and talk with David Hughes, whose ideas I radically developed and who has never answered questions or acknowledged me despite his publisher and the Australian Society of Authors requesting him in past years to do so and the English editor of my last book (A Special Illumination) who knows him in Sheffield speaking to him about me. I emailed Hughes most recently last Christmas without one word of response. We take it this gentleman just won’t dirty himself with talk of astrological proofs or risk his reputation as a scientist having dealings with anyone into astrology.
But the final proofs in the case of the Bethlehem star if there can ever be any ARE astrological combined with the statistical, i.e. in terms of what is statistically probable. Endeavour to produce as I have done material like a super-conjunction of Jesus’ names or as I mentioned coincidences like Part of the Brothers conjunct James and innumerable other revealing items of information and then also make the chart transits work to this day and then assure me this is not the chart of Jesus and exact as a fingerprint. Especially when one is offering data in line with what we know Magi were looking for and good historical facts. If people still feel there is no case it might then seem that the real problem is that there are none so blind as those who will not see.

THis is an interesting thread but the story that prompts is the usual sort of seasonal speculation that crops up from year to year. I’m sure Dave Reneke wasn’t out to “prove” anything about the Christmas story at all but engaged in an exercise to see what the skies were like around the turn of the era. Mind you, all he has done is highlight the spectacular visuals because I he is not the first to suggest the Jupiter in Leo conjucntions as being behind the Bethlehem star
The only problem is that the date does’nt fit the Matthew narrative which is our only source for the Magi/Star story. In Matthew the events all occur in rhe reign of Herod who most historians now agree died in 4 BCE ie. two years before this Jupiter Venus conjunction. Herod of course is a crucial character in the narrative and so we have to look for something else within Herod’s lifetime
As Stella Lynn and Rollan have pointed out the best event is likely to be the Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions in Pisces in 7BCE. As Lynn pointed out there was a series of such conjucntions over the 125BCE to 54Ce period. I beleive an earlier one heralded the birth or coronation of one of the great Hasmonean kings of Judah/Palestine but I can’t at the moment recall which
And yes astronomical data needs to be evaluated by astrological meanings because regardless of what one thinks of astrology, it was part of the thinking of people in the ancient world both Gentile and Jew (there is long established Jewish use of astrology). Pisces in the ancient world represented the Jews (I don’t know why). The Magi (which is the term used in the Greek text of Matthew) were Persian astrologer priests so if there is anything to matthew’s story we must look to astrology to udnerstand the references
The astromoner David Hughes suggested the Jupiter Saturn in Pisces conjunction back in the 80s but it had already been suggested by astronomer over the last few centuries – I think Kepler being one of them. Rollan took on the idea of Hughes and others to do the astrology and see what came out – and wrote a book about it as has already been pointed out
I think another point of the story which no one has picked up on much is that 2000 years ago did mark the turning of the era, not only of the age of Aries to age of Pisces but the ending of one Great Year and the start of the next. The astrological Great Year of 24000 odd years of the precession of the equinoxes starts with Pisces and goes backwards throiugh the zodiac to Aries. The Magi being astrologers would have known that and I suspect such thinking was rife in the ancient world. We can find it used in Virgil’s 4th Eclogue and also perhaps behind Josephus accliming Vespasian as the world leader prophesied to come from Palestine/the East during the 1st Jewish War in the late 60s of the first century CE
Jesus himself is born around the beginning of the Great Year to mark the religion based on him as the religion for the new age. I think that might be one of the reasons Matthew includes the story in his gospel (regardless of whether or not it actually happened which is a separate question). If it wsas known that Jesus was born in the year of the Jupiter Saturn conjunction then Mathew could be seen as trying to highlight the cosmic significance of Jesus’ birth