I’m with you Lynn. Surprised this article found its way into the Mountain Astrologer.
“Is it possible that the pervasive presence of depression in our nation arises from the inevitable voices of Saturn and Pluto trying to be heard in a culture bent upon endless growth while denying both decline and demise?” Yes, absolutely? But one can experience deeply the darkness of Saturn and Pluto yet still use those experiences for personal growth and ultimately the ability to walk in and out of the dark realms without getting stuck there. ”
Author sounds heavy Virgo/Sagittarius with a dash of Scorpio. This guy really needs to get outside more and experience playful Gemini.
To me, fate is what we make it, rather than an inevitable outcome regardless of choices made.
Life is an individuated journey (we come in alone, leave alone) filled with an amazing amount of human interaction. These mirrors remind me of the many masks or roles I play. The appearance of sorrow plays its part by reminding me of what needs to heal in any given moment, especially in the family genetics.
Beyond the apparent heaviness sorrow brings, the life quest in part is to elevate the body vibration to higher frequencies by literally embracing the sorrow felt (the way out of something is to go into it). Yet, experiencing the heaviness is just one piece of this journey. The more expansive side is to experience the joy and freedom that comes with the release of sorrow. If people avoid sorrow, then depression eventually sinks in to the psyche. Not a very appealing path and certainly fated with “decline and demise.”

Ah, sighhhhhhhh. It’s so simple, really. Astrology is a language. It is a way of understanding. It is a tool. We use tools to advance our missions. Astrology is particularly poetic, particularly descriptive. But it’s still the medium.
The message, now, that’s critical. Would you (I mention reluctantly) join with Rush Limbaugh and seek failure? Would you seek joy? You can use astrology to either end.

In our anthropomorphic attempts to make the universe somehow set up for our direct benefit (or detriment, or attention at all), we tend to forget what an observational area astrology fundamentally is, and that the entirety of what we observe predates us and has formed us and our views of ourselves and it, not the other way around. The common concept that if you stride positively forward, the Sun will rise, is truly ludicrous. It will rise anyway until, someday, it doesn’t. Just so interesting to be a part of it, experience it as it happens, do what you can with it…

John, my dear friend, I don’t really know of anyone who believes that we make the Sun rise through positive thinking. To me the question is, will we be paying attention when the Sun rises? Will we be awake when its warm rays infuse our lives with grace and energy? When Jupiter brings opportunities will we be aware and ready to walk through the doors when the open? Under a Saturn transit, will we do the hard work that Saturn expects? Under the influence of Pluto, will we surrender that which we need to let go of? It is my experience, both in my own life and with thousands of clients, that we can create change in our lives that bring us more into harmony with our planetary alignments, not less.
It does occur to me that this argument is nicely represented by the Saturn/Uranus opposition in effect right now.

I actually agree with alot of what he says…but I don’t think Fate defines us. And I don’t think there is anything wrong with asking the Universe for what you want. It’s just that sometimes you have to accept that the answer is no. All of our desires represent something we really need, it’s just that we don’t always understand what it is we’re really asking for. And sometimes, things just happen and we have to deal the best we can and make the best of what we have. That’s my understanding. But I have Pluto opp my Sun natal and a current Pluto sq Sun. So who knows?

Having read Brad Kochunas’ article in TMA ,I think he has identified the shadow side of the humanistic healer/helper syndrome.BTW ,I am a psychotherapist and psychological astrologer,so I’m not standing outside and pointing finges.
Increasingly I find myself wondering how ,if our Western so-called cosmic weather forecasts are accurate and therefore helpful to individual clients,then how do the vast majority of people on the planet manage to live their lives fully without them ? They have their own ways of scrying the universe.
This personalisation of the cosmos is a fiction that serves to sooth ,rather like religion.
I also have a question mark as to why your own buttons have been pressed by this article.

All of our desires represent something we really need, it’s just that we don’t always understand what it is we’re really asking for.
I’m not talking here about The Secret, which I have never even read for just this reason. I’m not talking about using the Universal powers to get what we want. I’m talking about taking the challenges of our chart and realizing the gifts that are offered there, rather than deciding that it’s our fate to be miserable.
The medieval astrologers believed in fate, but they also believed in alchemy where lead could be transmuted into goal. This is an alchemical process, well understood by Jung and other visionaries.
I also have a question mark as to why your own buttons have been pressed by this article.
Because I can’t tell you how many clients have come to see me in tears after a visit to a fatalistic astrologer, feeling they were doomed to (a) never have a successful relationship, (b) always attract violence, (c) die young, etc. etc. Helping people to transform their lives and rise out of the ashes of a challenging chart as I have done has become a passion of mine and I feel very strongly about it, which is one of the main reasons I started this blog.

My religious beliefs are entirely different from yours, but I would say that it’s dangerous and unproductive to accept anything is “fated” in any religion or philosophy. It encourages laziness and helplessness and despair and it is an utterly wicked thing for someone to do to an emotionally vulnerable or even mentally ill human being.
I don’t think the planets or moons or asteroids are gods. I think it quite likely that they are affected by the ENERGY of God, perhaps left behind when the universe was created, and it’s possible that their movements might tell us something about human personality variations or climate changes or things happening at a certain time. Maybe each has its own guardian spirit or guardian angel.
But human free will is required to make things happen or not happen and they are not directed by the planets.

“Because I can’t tell you how many clients have come to see me in tears after a visit to a fatalistic astrologer, feeling they were doomed to (a) never have a successful relationship, (b) always attract violence, (c) die young, etc. etc. Helping people to transform their lives and rise out of the ashes of a challenging chart as I have done has become a passion of mine and I feel very strongly about it, which is one of the main reasons I started this blog.”
Right on, Lynn. Someone came to me last year. Her first remark “Other astrologers have told me I have the worse chart”. My response “I never met a chart I didn’t like”. (the blanket statement is her words, personally I know wonderful, competent astrologers who would never view a chart that way).
Her chart intention was literally a shift (leap of faith) from an old perspective to a new one. Until the time of her session her choices were dedicated, focused, aligned with the old perspective (something employed in her family for at least 4 generations). Understanding her chart in the light of a new perspective (e.g. taking care/nurturing herself first vis-a-vis being the caretaker of others) was liberating. This set her off in a very different direction in life, one that has been very generous to her. Fated? Hardly. Opportunistic? Absolutely. She finally took her power back and decided to be pro-active with her life, instead of passive/aggressive.

“Increasingly I find myself wondering how , if our Western so-called cosmic weather forecasts are accurate and therefore helpful to individual clients,then how do the vast majority of people on the planet manage to live their lives fully without them ?”
Given the current state of the world, and the tremendous adverse impact on the planet, I’d say the “vast majority” may be living their lives “fully” at the expense of everyone’s well being.
Effective chart interpretation ought to focus on creating healthy, holistic lifestyle choices. Knowing your chart from this perspective makes all the difference between “living fully” and “living consciously in a healthy way”.
Understanding the cosmic weather forecast is a wonderful tool for planning, and realigning life intention and direction. Essential to living a meaningful life? No, but it sure helps in the choice/direction department when you have a map in front of you.

Not to denigrate your perspective Lynn, but I think there is plenty of room for his. I like his comments, they are a needed reality check, a valid perspective.
“I might argue that life is too precious and brief to exhaust it seeking enlightenment.”
My brother is like this. A great guy, who I love but completely bankrupt at 54, goes from one enlightenment guru to another. He’s been jumping ships since the 1970′s. It all started with Eckankar and he has been thru dozens of others. He’s always attending some kind of seminar and speaking about some new revelation that has “changed everything”. It’s engaging but it’s some kind of delusion. Enlightenment is in my morning coffee.

We are not so much pondering the question of fate here, but how we define it. Also to some extent, what limits we put on the pondering of it. Kochunas supports the view that “the fate of the moment is complete as it is and in perfect accord with the heavens”. His other comments remind me of “take the good with the bad”, “there are at least two sides to every question”, “don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater”. Also that one way to recognize light is in the presence of darkness. There’s something to learn even from the more negative influences in life. Even Saturn and Pluto.
I don’t think he’s saying that we shouldn’t try our best to grow stronger and more spiritually aware. Just perhaps that if we strive only for only greater joy and happiness, we are looking out the windows on only one side of the bus. There’s more to life than greater joy and happiness.
In looking at a chart, we need to look at the whole chart, not just the nice parts. Timing is important – if I had known that Saturn in the fifth house tended to “no children”, I probably wouldn’t have tried IVF for two years before giving up. Then I wouldn’t have appreciated my husband’s adolescents as much when they came to live with us. I know I would have regretted not trying to have kids at all. But now that I am aware of Saturn’s effects in the fifth house, I am content with that part of my life, the actions I took, and know that things worked out the best they could.
When interpreting a chart, you see the complete chart. How much of the information you pass on depends more on your people skills, to attempt to pre-judge how or what they might do with the information. Some clients seem to take it as gospel, you might wonder why others asked at all. Some astrologers are “fatalistic”, mentioning everything they see and leaving interpretation up to the client. Other astrologers filter the information they see in the chart according to their perceptions of the client. Still others sugar-coat the information, providing only information that is bright and positive, guaranteed to produce a happy client. For the moment anyways.
I liked Andrea’s comments. Fate is what you make it. It should not be an excuse. For the moment, I would agree with the point that human free will is not directed by the energies of the planets, but I think is is most definitely influenced.
I also agree with Kouchunas’ comment “ But one can experience deeply the darkness of Saturn and Pluto yet still use those experiences for personal growth and ultimately the ability to walk in and out of the dark realms without getting stuck there.” I have been experiencing a Saturn conjunction of my natal Pluto while Pluto has been conjuncting my natal Saturn for years now. Almost done.
Thanks for reading!

Lynn, Thanks for your excellent commentary on my most recent piece in TMA. I appreciate you taking the time to share them. I’m pleased the piece could evoke the deep rumblings in your response. I might only suggest that Fate is not found in the future but in the given of the moment so I hope no one would ever predict a life pattern of events for anyone from their chart either positive or negative as it distracts us from the work of the present.
Regards,
Brad Kochunas

Thank you for joining the conversation Brad, and for not taking offense at my remarks.

Mike – I do completely agree with you about the search for enlightenment if it never results in any kind of change. I have a dear friend who is always into one type of healing modality or another ,but it never seems to solve his problems. We have to face our issues head on, there are no magic bullets.
Wendell – you write I don’t think he’s saying that we shouldn’t try our best to grow stronger and more spiritually aware. Just perhaps that if we strive only for only greater joy and happiness, we are looking out the windows on only one side of the bus. There’s more to life than greater joy and happiness. I completely agree with this and you’ve bridged the gap quite nicely.
However, the verbiage that you attribute to Brad was actually my own.

Lynn, I agree this is such a rich topic of discussion. I can’t wait to get TMA and read the full article.
I guess what it gets me thinking about from your post here is how we learn to discern in a chart what we see as Human Fate as distinguished from Divine Fate. I mean, I do agree with you that the Universe is a kind and loving place, but how do we account for the notion that Divine Love can be completely different than what we typically perceive of as Human Love? Sometimes it’s the most loving thing when we have our house destroyed by a tornado because the Gods need us to be somewhere else and they know we wouldn’t possibly make such a choice by ourselves, and no astrologer is justified in insisting on such guidance. Oftentimes such Divinely-fated events are completely out of the scope of an astrological chart, except perhaps in hindsight. That’s the sort of path I’ve been contemplating lately, and seems a bit connected to this post.

Shane, you are exactly right that our personal desires are not always aligned with the Divine Intention. Mars in the chart represents the Will of the individual self – the part of us that desires, that wants certain things. Pluto, the “higher octave” of Mars, represents the Will of the Higher Self. The One that says, this is the experience that will benefit you right now. This is why we typically will find Pluto transits during the darkest times of our life. Not everything is sunshine and light and we can’t will our way out of tragedy.
My argument isn’t that we should always be happy and have good things. My argument is that we can transform the karma of the chart. Our Fate is the chart we are given and all of its inherent gifts and challenges. Our destiny is what we do with that Fate, in my view.

I read the entire article by Brad this afternoon, and agree with him. It’s right in line with what I’ve been studying and awakening to myself over the last, oh, year or two.
What I hear him saying amidst the article is not that accepting the Fate of a moment guarantees enormous gloom, or unending sadness, but it requires us to acknowledge and listen to the sadness or the melancholy when it appears. A Natal chart is not the indicator of every moment of a life, but the over-arching path. Melancholy touches us all, whether or not we have a natal Sun-Saturn or Sun-Pluto, or however it’s figured. We do have a cultural fear, or perhaps naivety is a better word, about the necessity of the darkness in life, and respecting healthy boundaries. Lynn, you’re right with the notion of gaining “the ability to walk in and out of the dark realms without getting stuck there,” but there’s a huge dominant focus in the U.S. culture to strive for the light, the happy places and do everything humanly possible to avoid melancholy and sadness at all costs, and that is what I hear him addressing in the article.
The picture you chose to accompany this post is interesting, like the woman’s in prison. It’s so reflective of how our culture sees the idea of limits and boundaries, and has so much to do with the cultural imprisonment of the Sacred Feminine and the symbolism therein. Unlimited boundaries in life might seem like true freedom, but seems to ultimately lead people to their respective forms of self-imprisonment, be it in their obesity, dependence on prescriptions, or loveless marriages (etc.). Add that into the formula of the insistence on being more enlightened, and it makes for quite the messed-up culture that would rather choose addictions and medications than slow down and perhaps feel sad for a little while.

I’m reminded of the natal chart I’ve seen for the USA that has Sagittarius as the Ascendant, and in that light the nation’s seeming resistance to the Saturn/Pluto side of life makes sense. I’m somehow not surprised that, being Jupiter-ruled, there’s an issue around accepting melancholy in this place. Why would we? I’m suddenly thinking of the USA’s Aquarian Moon, too. Again, not surprised.
I also remind myself, though, that Scorpio preceeds Sagittarius, and that given the way the cycle works, one can only fly to Olympus after one has traversed through the dark, the depths, and the muck that Scorpio embodies. It’s like there’s a built-in progression to this process. The meaning-making function enters in after the blood and guts experience of the dark. I suppose troubles arise when one tries to skip right to what Sagittarius represents and circumvent the actual process of grief. But who can blame us? I’m not gonig to go skipping merrily into the void, even with a Scorpio Sun and Moon-Pluto conjunction!
I’m reminded of Liz Greene’s work in Dynamics of the Unconsicous where depression gets a chapter. I think it’s well done and probably has some bearing on this coversation.
I understand both sides of the coin, as I am a melancholic with all my Scorpio, Pluto, and Saturn stuff, but I also have the Sagittarius Ascendant thrown into the mix with a heavy dose of Uranus. I’m just going to keep working along and hold on to my ability to laugh at myself and life…that’s about the best I can do with it for now!

Thanks Jared, I particularly like this line: ” The meaning-making function enters in after the blood and guts experience of the dark. “