I so want to wrap my arms around you and be your Aunt Cully (((Therese)))
You KNOW that G-d does not make “Cuckoo Bird” mistakes… if there is any bird genes in you (and in this case I believe there are), the genes belong to the Phoenix. You are Beautiful, your heart is strong, your love is pure, and you are a light in this world – we (Eric, the kids, and us here) have (at least in part) hope and dreams and hutzpah because you have come back to us (risen) time and time again out of the dark night.
Blessings, hugz, and here’s a pinch to grown an inch
Aunt Cully (LOL)

Therese-
How do you feel about your husband having a vasectomey when it is considered a grave mortal sin in the Church?
When my husband had his, as we left the office, him dopey with Valium and me leading him out to the car, bawling my eyes out, I couldn’t understand why I was so affected by it. I think I realized at that moment I had helped him commit a grave sin and I was an accomplice and that there was no going back.
We were having difficult struggles in our marriage and had just had our second child. In my husband’s opinion, if we had another child, it would be the decimation of our marriage. I did not want to go back on birth control (another grave sin) and the fear of having another child possibly breaking up our marriage was too great. We decided he would get “snipped”, as it were. That was almost 10 years ago and I still feel terrible about it. I felt even more awful when I said to my husband, several years later, “You know that having a vasectomey is a mortal sin, don’t you?” to which he replied, “No, I didn’t know that. Why didn’t you tell me?” (and him, a cradle Catholic of the staunch variety).
I still feel that I need to go to reconciliation and confess my part in it. Looking back, 10 years later, I don’t think that adding another child would have been the downfall of our marriage. Rather, it would have been due to the lack of skills we both had at fixing what is not working right. Things we continue to struggle with to this day. Maybe we were just getting tired. But when you start your family at age 30, it’s harder to be the vibrant young parents that our parents probably were. That’s why they could have 4 or 6 kids and still live to tell the tale of raising a multitude of children.
I think the area of birth control is perhaps, at least to me, the most difficult thing to accept about the church. I’m torn by it.
I was born into a family history of severe alcoholism. It was rampant on my mother’s side and on my father’s side. My father was an alcoholic nearly all his adult life. Genetically, my siblings and I were pre-disposed to becoming alcoholics. By some miracle, not one of us (and there are 4) have any difficulties with that issue. Did we totally escape the predisposition to compulsions and depression that are so often the earmarks of ‘isms’? No, we did not. But was that a reason for us not to be born? I think not. Just like George Bailey, if we could see the number of lives we touch, the relationships we’ve developed that are dear to us, no matter how troubled or hard they may be, we still were determined by God to be put here. Even if only for His purpose. I don’t fully understand it. I can’t always wrap my brain around it. But something inside me, the Holy Spirit perhaps, is always quietly whispering to me that I’m here for a reason, and that I am loved by the One who made me.

This stuff makes me very theological and philosophical, and there are big fights about it on Bnet forums and groups on occasion.
In Genesis, Adam and Eve could have had no free will and obedience, and a pretty happy, eternal life, or free will and disobedience and eventual earthly death. We know what they chose, whether they meant to or not.
The question is (however literally or metaphorically you believe in the Garden of Eden), when G-d cast out Adam and Eve, said they would die — and promised Eve rough pregnancies in the bargain — was the curse of free will simply death itself, or did it include the WAYS people would die?
In other words, are chronic diseases just random if unfortunate agglomerations of DNA in those sperm and ova, or are they a curse either placed on us by G-d or (worse, and some Bnetters believe this) placed on **ourselves** as the human species by Adam and Eve.
Whether the story is real or (almost certainly) a legend or myth, the fact remains to me that Adam and Eve were choosing to choose — but had no real idea of what the consequences, for themselves and their descendants, of that choice to have a choice (outside total obedience) would be.
And there are parallels to everyday life. The future alcoholic who is not fully aware of his or her family’s addictive tendencies doesn’t know the full consequences of getting drunk for the first time. The woman who is juggling kids, a job and a (so-to-speak) crazy schedule and tries to get by on less and less sleep at night is not fully aware she may be triggering an underlying bipolar disorder.
You can say someone who smokes regularly should be (and probably is) aware they may get lung cancer and/or emphysema. But most triggers aren’t quite as direct or obvious.
So do we blame ourselves? Do we blame G-d? Do we just say it’s bad luck? I don’t like any of those three explanations. (To say the least.)
I’ve been told by many Bnet friends, though, that maybe the “answer” is to forget the answer, to just deal with the hand you have and play it the best you can, without wishing you didn’t get the bottom of the deck.
(That’s why we cited “The Gambler” on this very blog, after all.)
PS — Paula, I have empathy with your struggles — BELIEVE ME. My desire not to have children contributed greatly to the end of my marriage 8 years ago.
That said, was today of all days the right one to condemn Therese and Eric for their decision? (Especially when Eric is, to my understanding, and forgive me if I’m wrong Therese, not a practicing Catholic.)
It’s also my understanding that if one can document that one has a serious disease that can impair one’s parenthood (or further parenthood), or that parenthood conversely would aggravate one’s chronic disease, a Catholic can get an exemption from the requirements of Humanae Vitae. Of course, it’s also my understanding that officially getting that exemption is like getting an annulment — easy if you’re rich, next to impossible if you’re not.

Larry
My question to Therese was NOT a condemnation, it was a QUESTION posed to her: “how did she feel” about it? I know she is a Catholic as I am. I wanted to know if she struggled with that decision or if it wasn’t that hard for her to make it given the Church’s teaching on all life being sacred.
Perhaps you did not read my blog with the same mindset in which I wrote it. The vasectomey decision was one my husband and I made without theological underpinnings, otherwise I may have decided that it wouldn’t be worth the sin on my soul. I thought about it afterwards, as so many of us do when we are desperate to make a decision about something. We just “do it” and think about the ramifications later. Especially those of us who are ‘feeling-types’ and not ‘thinking-types’. I typically make decisions based on how I feel and not how I think, which I know can be dangerous. Anyway, if Therese reads my blog as I intended it to be read, I think she will understand my question to her. In fact, I would think this would be a good topic for her next posting. It’s a hot topic to be sure, but one that will be forever struggled with if one is struggling to maintain adherence to Church teaching.
By the way, I’m a fairly new reader/poster, but I can see you are a regular. Why do you refer to God as g-d? Are you agnostic? Atheist? Not sure? I was just curious.
Paula

Paula, children are certainly precious gifts from God, but let’s be realistic; they are also an awful lot of hard work. The more children a couple has, the more work they are, and some children certainly take more work than others. We love our children very much, but they are all my wife and I can handle. At the time when we were contemplating whether we should have more, a story came out in the news about a mother who killed all of her own children. We have a history of clinical depression; when we heard that story, we realized that if we had more children, we could get more work than we could handle, and we had the potential to end up like that mother. We chose to love and protect the children we already had by not having more. I had a vasectomy, and I do not consider that to be a sin. Risking my mental health while my children need me would be a sin. Having more children than I can properly care for would be a sin.

Rereading my own post, I realized that it could also be interpreted incorrectly. I was not intending to criticize or condemn; I was intending to comfort. Paula, you said you struggled with guilt over your decision. I believe that our consciences can be bent to the point at which we may FEEL guilty over things that are NOT actually wrong. I just wanted to point out that by choosing not to have more children, you may have been making a very wise and honorable choice, and you can take comfort in that knowledge.

Daniel, I do appreciate all your comments, but I have to believe that in her wisdom the Church is correct. It doesn’t matter if we consider something a sin or not, it’s if God considers it a sin. If we choose to follow the church, then we must abide in her wisdom, no matter how difficult.
I’m not saying it’s easy.
I’m not saying that we oftentime choose to take the road with less struggle.
But I know God is a compassionate God. That’s why there is reconciliation.
I totally understand your struggle to decide that having more children might be, in your case, dangerous to your current children and/or yourselves. I have no desire to sit here, pointing my finger and saying you were right or wrong in your decision. Ultimately we all have to stand before the Lord, and he knows our hearts and our minds….especially as we struggle through these kinds of decisions. But if we start deciding for ourselves what we think is a sin or is not a sin, then we are making our own religion. We might as well not be Catholic. (Maybe you are not Catholic anyway). It’s always easy to point the finger at something and say it’s a sin…until it’s our very own sin….then we start to look at it as though maybe it’s not really quite a sin…after all, God will understand why I’m making this decision, won’t He? I think I did that when I chose to take birth control or when we chose the sterilization route.
Look, I made a decision 10 years ago that I regret. It was a sin. Perhaps for us there might have been a better answer. In looking to God for guidance about our decision, I have to say I believe that the struggles we continue to have may very well be due to the fact that we blatantly went against Church teaching and are now not in any position to be receiving the graces offered to those who are in communion with God. I still need to go to confession. I haven’t been in 30 years….and that’s a whole ‘nother blog, let me tell you….
but to wrap this up, I do understand where you were coming from and I appreciate your trying to understand me and make me feel better.
Peace

I love Cully’s response. I felt the same way when I read your post, Therese. You are beautiful. God made you beautiful and vibrant and intelligent, and God gave you special challenges. We all grow through your honesty and generousity in sharing your journey.
Paula, I read your question in a nonjudgemental way. I think it’s tremendously interesting to learn how people navigate a path through their chosen religions. What doctrines guide your life? Which do you ignore sometimes? Which challenge you? Which parts do you secretly refuse to believe or abide by? Why? It’s fascinating.
We all have to make choices in order to live meaningful lives. Sometimes we make compromises in order to cope.
I also can understand why you cried when your husband got a vasectomy. That’s a big change, and it carried emotional and spiritual ambivalence for you.

I am finding this blog posting very enlightening. My husband and I are comtemplating this very dilema. We are both Catholic, have been married for 14 years and decided to NOT have children. That said, you would think this would be a no-brainer for us. Little would change except my ability to not regulate my body with hormones any longer.
I think there are some issues where the best choice is clearly outside of a religious context. For me, this is one of them. If I were to completely and utterly abide by my religion, would there really be a reason for intimacy (beside selfish pleasures) if you had already determined that you did not want children? Procreation notwithstanding, where do you go from there?

Cathy, thanks for your comments. We are all truly navigating our way thru life, considering our religious beliefs, our families of origin, our current situations. Sometimes it’s easiest to just not think about it and go about our business. But then we would be no greater than the 4 legged creatures on the earth….ha ha
Janette, the more I learn about my Catholic faith, and I have been learning alot in the last 10 years or so, the more I see how God’s plans for us are perfect, and that we are the one’s who wreak havoc by deciding for ourselves to go against His will, either wittingly or not. I’m not passing judgement on you or your choices, I’m just saying that for me, I don’t think there ARE decisions that can be made outside a religious context. After all, we are created solely for God’s purpose, not for our own. So if we choose to follow our own willful path, then we suffer the consequences of being outside of His will. And just because I recognize this doesn’t mean that I always follow what is right or what the Church teaches. After all, I’m a fallen human like everyone else. Perhaps the difference is that I’m given the grace to see it for what it is (sin) and have been given the gift of a desire to seek reconciliation with God. I just have to work up the nerve……
Peace to you all

Paula,
Go to reconciliation, confess, and allow yourself to be forgiven. Leave the sin in the confessional. What was done is done. To not forgive yourself is to place yourself above God. Forgive your husband, too. It sounds like you need to experience God as the Mercy Seat.

Janette, I meant to make one more comment. God wants the union between a man and a woman to be intimate, there’s no question about that. After all, the examples He gives us of Christ being the bridegroom and the Church being the bride, and of His giving himself to us fully in the Eucharist: Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, how much more intimate can One get?
I don’t think intimacy was merely given to us for procreation, but as a testament to God’s very love for mankind in giving us pleasure in intimacy…it is not a selfish act. But being open to life is a big Yes to God. I think when we are saying No to God about having children, though, it is a bold move. I said No when my husband and I went the vasectomy route. I think I’m suffering spiritually because of it. But that’s my issue and it will be mine to deal with when I finally face Him…unless, of course, I get to Reconciliation before I die! I really mean to say more meaningful things about marriage and children, but I’m at work and I have to run now. Perhaps if I have more to say tomorrow I will add to this post.
Thanks and Peace

Barbara, Once again your wisdom and depth speak to me. “Putting myself above G-d is something I would have hotly denied EVER doing until seen in the context you shared. that’s going into my “WISE WORDS FILE (a diffwewbt kind of WWF (sorry, Hulk!)right along thside the words of a dear family friend/clergyman who accused me of being selfish (ME???(me? I’M THE ORIGINAL POSTERGIRL OF GENEROSITY!) because my reluctance/inability?) to receive robbed others of the opportunity ro experience the good feelings that my giving to others provides me. O’m wording this poorly; hope youcan get the gist. It was a truly profound epiphany for me,one which sent me on a quest to let others once in a while be the giver, thus expanding not only my own spirituality, but theirs as well. Am I there yet? Not 100%, but as Larry recently reminded me, “Progress, not perfection.” I have at least learned to examine myself when confronted by a giver and at least open myself to the possibility of receiving. IMHO, what you said about “placing oneself above G-d is another “Aha!” moment for me and I thank you for once again sharing your wisdom with the rest of us. This quest will undoubtedly be another one with many potholes in the road, but I’m certainly going to at least ATTEMPT to walk down it anyway,

Just went back ad reread ALL the posts, ans feel compelled to adde on (Yes, once again…sigh) Since i’m not nor ever have been Catholic, perhaps my input isn’t grounded in the same place, but let’s get real, folks! how many of us would have ever gotten past the “opposite sex have cooties and”kissing is gross” mindsets if G-d hadn’t made sexualintimacy so enjoyable? “Go Forth and populate the earth? IMHO, Eden itself would have suffered from a dearth of citizens if it hadn’t felt good, to say nothing of the EARTH! tHE bIBLE ALSO TEACHES THAT “the marriage bed is honorable in all (NT, not sure of the book, chapter or verse)AND EXHORTS HUSBANDS AND WIVES NOT TO DENT THEIR SPOUSE INTIMACY EXCEPT FOR SPECIFIC reasons that are amenable to both parties (THAT one is in Ephesians where instructions on the marriage/ familial roles/behaviors are discussed (ITHINK that’s chaoter 5) maybe I need to get up off my lazy duff and go get my concordance if i’m going tobe so bold as to quote scripture, but it’s not a good pain threshold day, so I’m going to stay right here in my semi-comfortable computer desk chaor. After all, many of you probably have access to a concordance or two of your own, right?
I also wanted to say (Yes, i’m ALMOST done!) that having been an unwanted child and havin observed so man others during my teaching career, I can’t help but agree that G-d counts the sin of destroying a child’s self esteem as equal to preventing an unwanted pregnancy in the first place. After all, in Proverbs, I think, it warns parents to take care of their children or expext “woe into them” and spiritual.emotional needs are at least as as important as physical ones. Again, not being Catholic, perhaps my view is such that I shouldn’t have ventured into this discussion. Apologies if i’ve offended anyone; it wasn’t my aim.

Therese,
Your reference to your twin at the end sounds like a Jacob/Esau moment:=)

As I read Therese’s post and then the many comments, I have my own opinions on this topic; however, the only reason I am typing now to to do an AMEN! to Barbara’s post.
That is entirely it. What Paula is expressing is what was explained to me as a “pride in reverse”. I’m not going to get into a dialogue about it, but when I read Barbara’s post, my head was bobbing up and down like a bobble-head doll.
There was a time in my life when I was going through my separation/divorce in 1991 where I truly could only see my hurt and my pain (and the children’s pain, who were young – ages 3 & 6). Having said that, through therapy and working with another women from the church, I came to see my part of wrong doing (to put it VERY mildly), and I felt as though I was hit by a Mack truck. I had sinned, and regardless of the “reasons”, it was a big one.
I then proceded to hit myself with the bat of guilt over, and over and over and over and then some. I had made a verbal “amends” to my then ex-husband, and I was in a very deep depression. I went on a retreat with a good friend of mine. There was a Priest on the grounds who was available to speak with anyone who wanted to seek him out.
Not being Catholic, I didn’t think I had the right to talk with him, but my Catholic friend convinced me that, that was not the case, and I should go to him. So I did, and I spewed out my garbage of sin and self-recrimination through a veil of tears.
When I was done, he quietly replied to me, “God has forgiven you. Who are you then to not forgive yourself? Are you better than God? Let it go.” It was one of those moments where it finally kicked in.
This is not to say that I have since then used that as an escape hatch for committing sinful acts (or whatever you want to label them) and not holding myself accountable, but it brought me to a sense of humility. Humble myself before God, ask his forgiveness, receive it and do the best I can.
With all this written, it again comes down to what Barbara so well pointed out as a suggestion to go for reconcilliation and be done. It may not be a magical moment, but a process.
Nancy L.

Ok – now off the topic of sinning, etc. – Therese, I love the authenticity you bring to us at Beyond Blue. You are truly a gift from God.
I too wonder about my “origins”, and when I reflect back on my parents and their lineage, my brother did not exactly hit the gene pool lottery.
Not too long ago I told my mother that she and my father should have never been allowed to procreate, as the results were not going to be favorable no matter how well my father’s swimmers swam. This was said in humor at the time and not in a harmful way, as we were kidding around about our idiosincrices (my nickname for my brother!!) – and actually that my brother and I didn’t have much of a chance of turning out “normal” given from whence we came.
Anyway, the origins of all this stuff. I believe I was born with certain propensities, and sometimes the “nurture” part of the process doesn’t always help the “nature” portion reflect in it’s best light.
One thing I want to write about, especially since I see her everytime I open up to beliefnet is this next new thing with Oprah. Okay, so now Oprah’s moved on to the next new “real” thing on how to find ourselves. So be it; live and let live. That was until I heard her read of few of her viewers emails on her show regarding their up to the moment experiences with this new book she’s promoting. One reader wrote, “By the time I reached page 51, I could understand and see so clearly how I had invited chronic and serious illness into my life.”
I thought I would go through the television set. Everyone has their opinion, and yes, Larry, I’m sure most of them would tick me off, but this crap about inviting illness in. UGH!! I do not remember sending off an invitation to me/cfs/fm these last 7 years. Do I not see how I can do things to help myself in whatever way I can to reduce it’s impact and be proactive and responsible to the best of my ability in reducing it’s effects on my entire being – yes. But I am not going to do the blame game on this one, and I wish Oprah would just go back to picking out some novels and getting off the “new age band wagon”.
Thanks, Therese, for providing a place where I can spew my stuff and move on. Thank you also for the image of you running around with the swimmers in the Owl bag – excuse the pun, but what a “hoot”!!
Nancy L.

I hate to say it but I got screwed on both accounts. The genetics in my family on my mother’s side were,shall we say, emotionally challenged. I remember my grandmother “Nanny” saying “I wish I was dead.” Of course she eventually got her wish (so be careful what…)old age and cancer from years of smoking etc. took their toll. My Dad’s genes were somewhat better but I think Grandpa was hitting the sauce pretty good. My maternal grandfather was also an alcoholic aggravated depressive. So much for the Friday Night Family Fights…(and monday,tuesday,wednesday…) Come to think of it I really don’t know how I managed to be as intact as I am. (sometimes not so much) Lately I’m having some real anger self management issues that I guess are depression related. It’s a struggle to repress but I’m working on it. Durring my family’s thankfully short visit my Mom and Dad got into the inevitable row about something really stupid. It set my pulse racing and the first urge I get is to cut myself. I did’nt, but I know all this CRAP is just below the surface and it scares me a little. I’m considering finding some counseling a little closer to home. I think I’m kinda overwhelmed right now.

No pun or other funny intended but the conception thing hit close to home. Being factual and not trying to say anything bad, some women are better engineered for being child bearers than others. My mom could get pregnant but there after it was misery for everyone involved. The first child made it to birth but expired within a day. I was child number two. Although I was there, I don’t recall the details so I have to go with what I have been told.
First, at the time of my birth, Mom and I were both UGLY sick. My Dad had to “push” to get the nurses to accept us. A doctor later told him that in a few hours we would have been dead. So we have birth. The doc’s figure mom has about a 50/50 chance. Me, they write off. Something about my throat. “Wait a minute Guys! Reconsider this!” Then one of them rethinks it and decides to try something. Part of me would really like to know the details and part of me thinks maybe I am better off not knowing.
That all took place fif(mumble, mumble) years ago and I am still breathing. But then there are genetics… and environment. By the time I was starting grade school my dad was listing as 100% disabled by the VA. Being on the front lines of WWII, having people getting blown apart all around you will do strange things to a person. Plus, his genetic material was already set for depression and all things related. Oh, that was the part that got passed to me. I really can’t recommend growing up in an environment with a crazy person.
Hey Nancy L., what you said about nurture and nature, and especially about Oprah’s current insanity; I second the motion. Otherwise you have to believe that every group ever “set aside for cleansing” just were not thinking the right thoughts!
Lastly, and belatedly, Hippo-Birdie to you, Theresa.
Take Care
Richard M.

Paula:
Again, I not only have deep empathy for your situation, I HAVE BEEN THERE MYSELF. I certainly wish you comfort and self-forgiveness for your own pain.
But I still can’t help but feel that specifically noting Therese and Eric are in “grave mortal sin” IYHO (at a time when Therese is desperately struggling) was piling on. (IMHO.)
To answer your other question — in my initial Beliefnet forays, I was on some forums where Orthodox Jews were active and, in their belief (google Rabbi Shmuley Boteach’s article here on Bnet for the full explanation) my spelling out the full name of G-d was blasphemy.
Obviously most Bnet readers are not Orthodox Jews. (Nor am I — lapsed Catholic is more like it.) But I have kept the appellation in recognition of the fact G-d is a Mystery we humans can never fully know.

Good theory. Very humorous. It brings to my mind a post I wrote (which I hope you don’t mind promoting) called “My Bipolar: A Socio-Historical Perspective 1963-64″ that can be found at -ttp://pistolpete.wordpress.com/2008/02/10/my-bipolar-a-socio-historical-perspective-1963-64/
Thanks for the post. I like what you’re doing.

I made a mistake “My Bipolar…” can be found at http://pistolpete.wordpress.com/2008/02/10/my-bipolar-a-socio-historical-perspective-1963-64/
Thank you.

I know what happened when I was conceived!!! My dad was an alcoholic (sperm was drunk)my mother was always depressed (her egg not normal) and I ended up with both counts!!
All kidding aside…it isn’t so much “just” our screwed up brains causing the problems but the environment we are raised and the morals and values we receive.
Years of brain washing along with our genes make it easier to have mental issues later in life.
I can’t remember how many times my mother tossed out my father over drinking…and for years I tossed out otherwise great guys over small little stuff. Now I realize it was a power struggle my parents were having and I found myself repeating what I was taught.
I was just talking with my cousin earlier today about the “good old days” when we were all under 15 and the family get togethers and how even back when we were around 7-9 years old the family “mental” battles our Aunts would have with each other and continue to have.
We don’t know exactly how we avoided turning out like them (at times we find ourselves thinking like they do) but thankfully we support and encourage each other when the other is falling apart by reminding each other that we don’t have to repeat the mistakes from our parents past.
Nancy aka sixlittlekitties