Hello All~
Do any of you hide your depression? When I’m at work or around others, I tend to put on a smile on my face and pretend I’m happy…seems like I’ve always done that. Then, when I come home, I’m exhausted from “acting” and am snappy with my family, as they know the “real me”.
Don’t you wish that you could be yourself and stop the pretending?

Thank you for this wonderful piece, explaining the difference between “spiritual” depression and clinical depression. Having experienced both, I know they are not, in any way, the same.

Hi, lap! So good to see you here.
Sadly, I have to disagree with you, and Therese — at least somewhat.
Now far be it for me to challenge Therese’s demonstrated overall expertise on these matters. But the way you write THIS PARTICULAR BLOG ENTRY, Therese, the “dark night” and depression don’t sound that different to my ears.
If you’re asking me whether those in a “dark night of the soul” can maintain relatively normal relations with family, friends, work, etc. even with their profound doubts about G-d, sure, I can believe that. (Clearly Blessed Mother Teresa kept up her incredibly taxing work in Calcutta for decades.) If you’re noting that many of those with deep, even paralyzing depression maintain a deep and abiding faith in G-d/a Higher Power through it all, of course! (I run into such folks every day both on- and off-line.)
But what about someone like me, who has deep depression and whose depression has caused him to fundamentally question the nature of G-d? Is that both depression and the “dark night”? And what about the fact that, at least sometimes when I have the strength, I can “fake it” in public like someone “only” (I hardly mean to minimize it) going through a “dark night”? Does that mean I’m not depressed? (Highly doubtful.)
I’m picturing one of the old “Venn diagrams” of overlapping circles from math class. I believe you when you say they are two separate concepts; I believe you (to say the least) when you acknowledge they overlap at times. But sometimes, IMHO, the circles overlap to the point where they virtually eclipse each other — making it impossible to tell which one, or what mixture of both, is actually going on.

I’ve experienced both. At least I can hear the inner voice when it’s a “dark night”. When it’s garden variety depression I’m pretty much flying solo. (except lately thanks to Beyond Blue) I understand when God says He is at His strongest when we are at our weakest. Only then can He really affect changes in our spiritual maturity. God can’t use us when we are so entrenched in the mundane, and too focused on ourselves. The other difference is when it’s God at work…it makes us better. When is only our everyday difficulties it makes us worse.

To Cindy’s comment about pretending to be happy at our best and brightest around everyone else but our families, that is me allover. I’m sure my colleagues would be floored to hear I am bipolar and have been severely depressed for years! It is exhausting and I am beginning to get frustrated about the need to be secretive about my condition because of the stigma attached. My husband left me because of my angry outbursts and hopelessness. My misery must’ve rubbed off on him and he just couldn’t take it anymore. Sadly, we did not recognize it for what it was and now he treats me like I have leprosy and he might “catch it” if he even talks to me. I read somewhere that it is common for people to shun people with mental illnesses because they are afraid of their own vulnerability, kind of like the way AIDS patients were treated when it first came to our collective attention. I miss my family as it was. I am so lonely and feel guilty for the havoc my behavior has wrecked on my loved ones. But they are so angry and bewildered now they consider my behavior abusive and think medicaling it as just an easy excuse. I am afraid to let my co-workers and others know more, my dark secret, because they will fear me, keep me at arms length and turn away from me as I have experienced from the people closest to me have done. It would be professional suicide if I were to say I have a mental illness. It’s one of the reasons I am so frustrated about my diagnosis. It has not brought me cloer to God…quite the contrary. I just don’t feel Him/Her/Other when I pray any more. So many folks on the depression blogs I have read have spoken about some wonderful experience they’ve had where they knew God was with them. I just feel abandoned and completely alone. I am working very hard at finding peace , but it doesn’t seem to be.

To me, that excerpt did nothing to differentiate between the dark night and the modern diagnosis of depression. The affliction seems just the same; the difference being in how the individual reacts to it.
But having spent some years under the diagnosis of Major Depressive Disorder, I cannot say that it is any “fault” of the individual why he or she suffers under such pain and darkness that seem to be so unproductive. For me, there came a time when God finally freed me from the craziness of it, the crazy dysfunction and life-wrecking mess, though the pain does remain. God must be the one who gives us the grace to react to these afflictions according to His perfect and loving will, and I guess all we can do is keep crying out to Him.

Hi ALL, I’ve been bouncing between Beyond The Blue and Conversations With God (today they are discussing conversation between God and teenagers), which to me, both are dealing with the same problem.
We are creatures of words (or the Word) We are the only beings on this planet that deal with intellectualism and ego, which is defined and controlled through the Law, both religious and societal. On top of all that, the words we use to define what we are very erroneous and misunderstood. An example, the word “consecrate” means- against the sacred… the word “prohibited” means -for to have.
To “understand” means – to stand under. That word, originally from Shakespeare, meant in today’s vernacular “Thick as a brick”. How about “adult” finds its roots in – a dolt! We assume the meaning of words (or Word) because we are too lazy to look them up. Worse yet, Webster, rewrites his dictionary to reflect the “evolution of words”, which as far as I’m concerned is absolutely wrong (when you look up words, check the root meanings in the parentheses).
How in the Hell can you not be depressed in this world, when everything you try to believe in goes against everything that dwells in your heart. Oh yeah ! The words “de-pressed”, and “re-pressed” are rooted in “pressed” as in – to hold down. To be de-pressed is an innate revolt to free yourself from the bondage of those who would hold you down … ”I came to set you free” (Yeshuah). That feeling can, and will result, in all kinds of con-flict and turmoil in your Life, that will manifest itself in pain, anguish, anger, anxiety and suffering. There are all kinds of ways to medicate these problems, drugs, alcohol, sex, work, music, etc. etc. For me the best is God/Love
Can you imagine how much bi-polar, Yeshuah/Jesus had to deal with … His answer “Come to Me as a child !” (He had a serious problem dealing with adolts)
We are born smart and grow up to be stupid
Love conquers ALL (but only if you surrender to it)
LUV 2 ALL
Wisdum

Well, I have experienced both, as others have shared. Unfortunately, having been misunderstood when going through the “Dark Night” by my Pastor and others, it led to major depression…and then a heart attack. Then, the heart attack led me to start questioning my DN experience and even God.
Currently, I think I’m okay…I think.

For all the compassion and empathy you show for those who experience depression, you do yourself and everyone else a dissservice by not doing the necessary research that would yield more insight into the truth that depression is a real experience but NOT a medical condition with biological causes.
Read Loren Mosher, M.D., Joseph Glenmullen, M.D., Peter Breggin, M.D., Ty Colbert, PhD, and Elliot S. Valenstein, PhD, just to name a few.
Douglas C. Smith, M.D., a former psychiatrist who now practices general medicine in Juneau, Alaska, says “One hundred years from now, people will read current psychiatric textbooks with the same incredulity we have about blood-letting and snake oil.” On a web site which he no longer has the time to maintain, he said “I no longer recommend psychiatric medications to anyone” and lists his “General Principles:”
– Psychiatric drugs don’t work as well as generally believed. At best, they are only marginally better than placebo.
– Psychiatric drugs don’t work in the ways they are generally believed to work. They are nonspecific. They never correct imbalances. They never improve the brain. They “work” by impairing the brain and dampening feelings in various ways.
– Psychoactive drugs (including alcohol) provide at best, temporary relief, but make things worse in the long run. They make things worse directly (chemically) and indirectly by distracting from the real issues.
– All psychoactive substances have rebound and withdrawal-related problems. Psychiatry misinterprets these problems as more mental illness and evidence that more medicines are needed.
– Changes in thoughts and feelings can lead to measurable changes in brain biology. Psychiatry interprets this backwards, as biology driving thoughts and feelings, which robs thoughts and feelings of their meaning and humanity.
– “Mental illnesses” — even severe ones — are relational and spiritual. Biological psychiatry is irrelevant

“For all the compassion and empathy you show for those who experience depression, you do yourself and everyone else a dissservice by not doing the necessary research that would yield more insight into the truth that depression is a real experience but NOT a medical condition with biological causes.”
As I have said to other comboxers, if you agree that this is a site for compassion and empathy, for goodness’ sake please do not stigmatize those of us who strongly disagree in our reading of the research and who have, frankly, seen improvements in their lives with their medication.
And IMHO, your blithe comparison of booze to lithium, Prozac et al. tends to “impair” your credibility.
PS — To my mind, you are also mischaracterizing Breggin. My reading of him is not that he disagrees entirely with psychiatric medication, only that he disagrees with the **overprescription** of psychiatric medication, particularly by general practitioners rather than psychiatrists. I don’t think many of us with disagree with him on that count.

… “many of us WOULD disagree with him” …
Whoops

Larry,
Do you strongly disagree in your reading of the research, or have you done no research at all and simply accepted the word of others who accept the word of others (whoever that might be)? I gave you several names. Look each of them up on Amazon and see what kinds of books they have written. They are all, without exception, well credentialed professionally. Dr. Breggin’s “Toxic Psychiatry” is a good bit stronger than you suggest.
Dr. Smith was a practicing psychiatrist and it was HIS words I quoted. Given the fact that there isn’t ANY research that can confirm the biological origins of depression, only desirable changes in mood in response to medications (and those results would be laughed out of any serious scientific discussion given how close to placedbo results they are), the comparison to improved mood in response to known mood elevators, such as booze or other drugs, is valid.
Suppose, for example, you had a headache due to having a power nail driller drive a nail into your head. You could take medications that would lessen the pain, even make you ignore what the real cause is, and stay on medicatios rather than address the real cause, which is a nail in your head. IF the “depression is caused by biology” hypothesis is wrong, then you’re harming yourself in the long run by believing what is false, but giving yourself some temporary pain relief that will distract from the real cause(s).
You are not depressed “for no reason at all.” Find that reason, whatever it is, address it, and don’t use your brain as a convenient excuse and yourself as a human guinea pig.
Speaking the truth, even hard truths, to another person who is harming themselves with good intentions and misplaced trust, is not a lack of compassion or empathy. It’s loving that person enough to give them the truth of how to cope with their condition, which is real but NOT biological in origin.
Depression isn’t “cured” by medications. What other “disease” requires counseling and therapy to effect full remission of symptoms? The comparison often heard between “insulin” and “antidepressants” is so conveniently untrue and inappropriate that the comparison itself ought to expose our self-deception.
If you’re feeling helpless and hopeless, it’s not because there isn’t help or hope. It’s a false perception of reality, and the “cure” comes when you confront, understand and respond to reality as it really is, not as you currently do when depressed.
No one except people who stand to make money off the assertion will state that depression is biological in origin. Why? Because there’s absolutely no proof. Nothing! You can’t even measure serotonin in a living person, and serotonin affects the entire body, not just the brain, which explains some of the horrific side effects experienced by some who try to withdraw from these medications. (See MSNBC article http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14126142/)
Finding out that you’ve been believing a deception or outright lie can be very disheartening. But you have a greater chance to get better if you know the truth.
I understand depression from the inside. I’m part of the depressed community. Unlike Therese, I find that depressed people make the best of friends because there’s so much we understand about each other’s feelings that we don’t have to explain. Such relationships are VERY therapeutic. Work on a Suicide Hotline, as I have, and you will find that your gift of understanding depression can be a gift to others. The gift is NOT that “there’s medications out there;” the gift is, as Dr. Smith said, you give thoughts and feelings meaning and humanity. Medications rob you of that gift because they don’t improve but actually harm your brain, and in doing so you don’t even know it! You’re now able to feel happy in a situation or setting where the appropriate response is sadness.
How is any chemical supposed to give you “good judgement,” as in “grieving for the appropriate amount of time after a loss,” or dealing with a situation that should change but the absence of pain ministered via medications makes the change seem less necessary?
All of us who have experienced depression to a serious degree have a serious problem. We may need help in working through those problems. Medications have absolutely nothing to do with whatever the solution is. Just show me some research that says more than “approximately 55 percent of people who took the medications for six weeks felt better, as opposed to 45 percent of those who didn’t and, oh, by the way, we excluded from our test group anyone who was seriously suicidal.” “And when prescribing, don’t expect any results for about four weeks, even though our tests weren’t any longer than six weeks, which gives us two weeks to evaluate results.”
It’s helpful to have places where depressed people can share how they cope, and to find fellowship in a community which has something in common. But if a huge percentage of us are guilty of “The Emperor’s New Clothes” syndrome, we enable each other to stay depressed rather than get better.
I’m depressed but, like the TV character “Monk,” I’ve learned to deal with it along side of my strengths. I will probably never not be diagnosed as depressed. But, wonder of wonders, I have a life that assumes that and I function effectively where I can. “Monk” went on medication and discovered he was no longer himself, and no longer any good at his specific gift. So he decided it was better to NOT be medicated, even though it made him more like a “normal” person. A fictional character, yes, but so was the Prodigal Son. Stories can teach us.
I’m not sorry this was so long. The problem of “believing what is false” is so pervasive and serious that it deserves better than abrupt dismissal by someone, anyone, without the ears to hear. You believe an untruth. The sooner you realize that, the better.

Re -Larry Parker
“As I have said to other comboxers, if you agree that this is a site for compassion and empathy”
** This is not only a site for “compassion and empathy” as you put it, it is also a site for deliverance. You may choose drug deliverance (and if that works and satisfies you, more power to you) There are others that find it in Spirituality (not necessarily religion, especially not religion !) …you might want to respond to my post, to your last post on Facts About College Depression. You may have noticed a whole lot of data related to Mother Teresa and Depression here, have you not gained anything from all of that ? Let me give you a clue, the Pope himself sent out a warning to all the clergy “Do not mess with Mother Teresa” . . or in other words to put it bluntly “She will kick you a** big time !” You can fight the system or you can wallow in self pity … it is all freewill and your choice … I choose to “Go with God”
LUV 2 ALL
Wisdum

Wisdum:
I hardly think the Pope said that Blessed Mother Teresa’s job in heaven is to “kick people’s @$$e$” back here on earth. What, to let out the frustration from decades of being depressed? C’mon.
Frustrated:
I read Toxic Psychiatry, as it happens, and I stand by my characterization. (Maybe I should have added that Breggin thinks the drug companies are greedy, but again, that’s not exactly an out-of-the-mainstream statement.)
To both of you:
(And despite your self-description, Wisdum …)
Yes, many people with situational depression and even mild unipolar depression can get by without formal medication, or with herbs such as St. John’s Wort and kava kava. And GP’s overprescribe SSRI’s such as Zoloft, Prozac, et al. to people who say “I’m a little down lately” without referring them to a psychiatrist first as they should. And, yes, they can have serious side effects, including withdrawal side effects. (As do many non-psychiatric medications, of course.)
But severe unipolar depression, bipolar disorder, and schizophrenia are of another magnitude altogether. Particularly with bipolar and schizophrenia, people who are unmedicated WILL DO HARMFUL THINGS TO THEMSELVES AND OTHERS. That is documented scientific fact (and documented personal experience).
When people say creative visualization or the laws of attraction are “The Secret” (pun intentional) to bipolar disorder, my response is that if I try to creatively visualize something on a manic jag, I will either hurt myself, someone else — or end up dead as a result.
There are vulnerable, lonely people in terrible crisis reading this. I’m strong enough not to take your perhaps well-meaning, but IMHO disastrous advice. The least you owe is a moment to think about those who throw away their lithium or Depakote thanks to reading these posts — and what they may do to themselves or their loved ones as a result.

The badgering, combative tone this blog has taken is something that I am sad to see develop. A little restraint would be much appreciated.
Conversation is not what is happening now — preaching and prosletizing have taken its place. The “in your face” tone in these letters isn’t going to convince anyone of anything.
There are a lot of people who write this blog to have someone to listen to them. They don’t need know-it-all problem solvers whose only interest is their own agenda. Some people use medication — some don’t. Get over it!
Start a blog and see how many want to read your rants about the drug conspiracies and bi-polar Jesus. Having a provocative point-of-view is fine with me, but the shouting and repetition is a huge turn-off.

Re – Larry Parker | September 9, 2007 3:29 PM
“I hardly think the Pope said that Blessed Mother Teresa’s job in heaven is to “kick people’s @$$e$” back here on earth. What, to let out the frustration from decades of being depressed? C’mon.”
** As I’ve said before it’s a difficult, if not impossible, task to communicate, since it’s all perception (and perception is everything). This is how it played out with Mother Teresa and the Roman Catholic Church. The churches attitude toward the Moslem religion was “Why do you bother, they are not of us, and they don’t believe in our God”(sound familiar)Mother Teresa laid it out in no uncertain terms, that for her it was all about Uncompromising, Unconditional Love. That means to transcend the petty bigotry that is prevalent between religions, reminding the Pope (not God, but a mere mortal like the rest of us) about What God is all about (as if the Pope shouldn’t know?) By the Way, if there is only one God, then everybody’s God is the same God ! (hello !). The Pope was not about to get into a public debate with Mother Teresa, when the entire world already knew what she was about ! By the Way, she also laid it out to our President Clinton, who was trying to use her for his own political advantage, I Love her quote “It is a poverty, that a child must die, so that you may live in a manner to which you’ve become accustomed”
God does not dictate orders to anyone, this is all about freewill. I don’t know how to explain it any simpler than that. There is indeed clinical depression, but it is really not any different than any other depression, only the treatment you and your doctor decide will work for you. There is no argument about that. The question is how do you treat it and does it work. Whatever works for you, works for you, and is no problem with me. I was under the impression here that we ALL, were evaluating the various possibilities. I only speak for myself and how I deal with it…That may not work for you, I have no problem with that either. I don’t know where you get the idea that I am trying to reform you or drive you into some sort of spirituality that you don’t care for. I am a firm believer in freewill, and would not deny it to anyone. For me the drugs drove me deeper into depression, to a point that I could not get out of bed, not even to go to the toilet. If it wasn’t for my wife, not accepting that behavior from me, and dragging me out of the bed and force me to motivate myself (I think they call that Love) I probably would be dead or a vegetable today. As far as I can tell, I am fully functional today, but I have to admit I am still a royal pain in the ass!
LUV 2 ALL
Wisdum

Larry:
You said: “There are vulnerable, lonely people in terrible crisis reading this. I’m strong enough not to take your perhaps well-meaning, but IMHO disastrous advice. The least you owe is a moment to think about those who throw away their lithium or Depakote thanks to reading these posts — and what they may do to themselves or their loved ones as a result.”
I’ve been told, more than once, that I will be held responsible by God for the suicides of those who take my “disastrous advice” seriously.
I am not opposed to medications. I am opposed to the hypothesis that depression is caused by biology. Medications can and do, for many, manage symptoms and enable “non-destructive functionality.” That is an unqualifiedly good thing.
I once had a discussion with someone whose past life had countless issues that could easily be understood as having contributed to her chronic depression. She has been on Paxil for as long as it has been available, which is over a decade. In response to my “disastrous advice,” which is really nothing more than stating that depression is not biological in origin and, therefore, should be treated with far more than medications, she continued with Paxil because she “doesn’t have the time to sort out all those issues.” “I have a husband to love and a family to raise, and Paxil helps me do that. If there are more fundamental causes, I don’t really care. I need to function effectively more than I need to understand why and how I became the way I am.” I have no helpful response to that. Why fix what’s broken if it works?
I never tell people to stop taking medications. For one, the withdrawal process can be worse than the condition being treated. I’m simply trying to raise awareness to something that may never have been considered, that you are not necessarily a “victim” of something like diabetes or cancer, over which you had no control, but you may be a “victim” of various life experiences that have distorted your ability to respond in a happy, holistic way.
When I meet someone who is clearly depressed and not seeking help, I encourage them to do so, but I also encourage them to seek help from a professional whose first choice of treatment will not be medications. Having worked on a Suicide Hot Line, I’ve talked to people both on and off medications, and I had to deal with the crisis at hand without resort to medicine. In a sense, *I* had to BE medicine, in that moment, for that person. If that works (and it almost always does), then general, ongoing therapy which takes a similar approach CAN be a better form of therapy than medications that do nothing more than manage symptoms and buy time.
Again, I’m not opposed to medications. I’m opposed to the seeming corollary belief that medications treat causes and that, as Dr. Smith said, robs thoughts and feelings of humanity and dignity.
Ty Colbert, PhD, wrote a book titled “Broken Brains or Wounded Hearts.” He has had great therapeutic success by taking the “wounded heart” model of understanding most mental illnesses rather than the “broken brain” model. Whether he has discovered some universal truth is legitimately debatable. *I* find it more true than not.
If any individual experiences positive results from medications, I think they should continue. I don’t, however, believe that is GENERALLY the place to start. Some person to person human exchange, such as is found in friendship, can be enormously therapeutic. Just knowing that someone truly understands you can be therapeutic. As a depressed person, you can be a therapeutic friend to another depressed person, and not necessarily less effective than a professional.
I’m only concerned with the belief that depression is a “disease” or an “illness” over which you have no control OTHER THAN medications, as is true with diabetes. Medications may help you, but YOU are the primary resource in your recovery. The same can’t be said for diseases like diabetes, where your primary responsibility is to remember to take your insulin and, probably, watch your diet. With mental illness, your participation in the process of healing and recovery is far more integral.
If people take my “disastrous advice” seriously, they won’t just stop taking their medications and inflict those consequences on themselves and others. They will read far more widely than just what *I* have to say, will consider alternatives to medication, wean themselves responsibly if that’s what they conclude, and pursue a non-medical model of therapy with someone who is competent to lead them through that.
So, no, I won’t take responsibility for what people do in response to what I try to share from my experience. Individuals are responsible for their own actions.
I spent three years on every imaginable antidepressant, anti-anxiety, mood stabilizer and anti-psychotic medication you can name, usually several at once. The experience, for me, was so bad that I frightened my wife, who didn’t recognize me as the person she married. Withdrawal was a several month agony. But I’m “drug free” today, for over eight years, still diagnosed as depressed and undergoing therapy for it, my wife recognizes me again, and I’m making progress. Some, who can’t accept what I say, conclude that I must not have been really depressed. As someone who “therapeutically writes,” I can document my depression very convincingly, and have done so for every professional I have consulted.
I am very much part of the community of the depressed. I am no longer ashamed of it. And I don’t ever expect to graduate to the community of the normal. But that’s okay. I’m quite pleased to be me, the clearly dysfunctional person that God loved into being.

Describing Mother Teresa spiritualess moment as depression should not bother anyone. Many of the prophets experienced similar moments do to human desparity,Elijah a classic, Jeramiah, Samson, David, Joseph, lastly Jesus. Anyone who is a true servant of God knows what it means to become spiritually dry. The diference as I see it, the depressing moment is overcomed by a renewed spiritual awakening. The true servant does not need Prozac or counseling, just a moment to reflect what it is all about, then you can overcome the feeling of helplessness. It is a shame that Mother Teresa was not seen as a human doing what the Holy Spirit led her to do.

Mother Teresa; God let her soul rest in peace and if there is a hevean she is there.
My thoughts are that Mother Teresa was a human being with strong feelings to help the poor and she gave her life to that cause.
Like any other human she had the right to moments of doubt.
Even Jesus himself had doubts about God Almighty when he was on the cross. ” Abba Abba why has thou forsaken me”. Mother Teresa was no different she was overcome with all the despair around her;watching people die,and starvation and sickness and she was not able to help them overcome death and the wreatched life but she did the best she could do to make them comfortable in there last hours of death. Why is it that folk have such a hard time to understand that. She was not God and even God was not perfect for if that was the case we would not have sin, death and wars and there would not be any need for salvation.
Let us get real give her the proper praise,she was a great human being doing the best she could in her belief in Christ Jesus.
Long live the memory of the sweet and gentle lady who was in the sacred heart of Jesus.
Manu Salah Mateus

Mother Teresa’s dark nights were truly Spiritual. As one only has to look upon the effaicy of all she accomplish in the nam of God. I understand why people think if one is lost and can’t feel God means they are depressed, In all reality one has to look at your life and discern just how you are functioning and how and if you are following God’s path for yourself. It is sad to see the ruminations regarding the wonderfulthings a tiny little human being accomplished and not see we are at times looking for an excuse to find something wrong w/ the person rather than accepting reality for what it was… I hope this makes sense I’ve had several strokes and I have written aphasia. Just my thoughts and feelings on the matter

Mother Teresa’s experience is as old as the writer of the Psalms: Consider Psalm 22 “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me” quoted on the cross by Jesus. After this Psalm of dispair, we read a psalm of faith and confidence in Psalm 23 that “The Lord is My Shepherd.” Our lives have both ups and downs, and a variety of emotions give richness to our lives, not dullness. Psalm 42 and 43 would be another example of David’s feeling “blue” – “Why are you downcast, O my Soul?” “Why have you forgotten me?” Psalm 42:9-11. Other examples may be found in the Bible as well. I agree with the caution that bi-polar problems are more than “spiritual problems”. Allowing both faith and science to work together is to view prayer and medicine as partners, not enemies, to help bring health and wholeness to people’s lives.

I have suffered from both and thank you for pointing out the importence of contemplative prayer. While i don’t discount medications, i take them, i am looking for a type of therapist or spiritual advisor to sort out the darkness of my nights. What would you recommend?

Frustrated:
I still strongly disagree with your views on medication, but I cannot dispute your right to hold those views for yourself. BTW, I wasn’t implying you might be causing people to jump off bridges, only that your advice might cause them (IMHO) unnecessary suffering.
But now you’ve turned it around 180 degrees — and say that people with depression cause THEMSELVES unnecessary suffering. In other words, you are saying that depression is a mere (mere?) character flaw. Or, ironically as we discuss Blessed Mother Teresa, that it is the result of guilt from our sins.
I thought blaming people for their own psychiatric (or is that neurotic? hysteric?) conditions went out with Freud’s couch. But I guess not.
I do find it utterly, utterly shameful, though.
PS — My sister has diabetes. I assure you, it takes a lot more than injecting herself with a needle (or a pump, as the case may be) to keep her healthy. And she still struggles — just like her brother with his condition, despite his attempts to be proactive.

There’s one thing about the “Dark Night”- here it is assumed to be depression. Who am I to judge that the blessed Mother Teresa merely experienced a depression? Who knows what other experiences are related to a “Dark Night”? Depression alone doesn’t define the experience of a “Dark Night”, which is altogether a whole other topic. I wouldn’t dare fathom the true depth of the second part of the Dark Night described by St. John of the Cross. Perhaps this was the rue experience of the Blessed Mother.

Cathy — You point is well-taken and clear.

If I can’t feel the love of God, then I am depressed. And if I am depressed, then I can’t feel the love of God. And I don’t feel the love of God when I don’t experience LOVE in my life, and God doesn’t seem to be doing anything about it.
How I feel is not a reliable guide to what is ultimately real, but feelings are what I have to deal with on a day-to-day basis. I think my experience is typical of many depressives. Mother Theresa didn’t belong “in the ward” with us, but I can see her coming “onto the ward” to be with us in her compassion.
Incidentally, I am finding that practicing the presence of God and owning my longing for FELT oneness with God add immeasurably to the effectiveness of psychiatric treatment. We should neither reduce Mother Theresa’s experience to “just a psychiatric problem,” nor overlook the profound spiritual truths in psychiatric illness.

Larry,
Our mutual inability to hear or understand each other is pretty clear, so let’s just “agree to disagree” and assume the best of intentions and sincerity. Maybe our paths will cross in another, more productive, context.
I sincerely apologize if I have caused you or anyone else harm or pain. I will refrain from future commentary on this issue.

Extreme opinions expressed in good faith are still extreme.

There is a mamoth difference between the dark night of the soul and depression. To me the dark night of the soul is when one can not feel the presence of God in their lives. When I’m depressed the total lack of interest in anything of this world overtakes my whole being. The only consolation is to know that there is a God who is with me and knows this feeling in me and it is so easy to feel His presence with a certain peaceful peace not felt at other times due to the ability to speak with God because nothing else matters. It is total abondonment to this earthly life and a deep union with God and the peaceful ability to trust Him and so easy to pray, a silent speaking of the soul to it’s Creator.
Edward F. Nadau du Treil
Dallas, Texas

Thank you for separating the two. I am tired for feeling, and being guilted for an illness, for my spirit of depression. I am barely functioning out of the black hole, and would so much rather crawl in for good.
Lori

I think there is a mammoth difference between Mother Teresa’s lack of connectedness to her God (dark night of the soul???) and depression, too. Maybe people need to stop interpreting her words/ reading between her lines and just accept what this very intelligent, articulate woman was representing. She clearly was torn between her commitment to her faith and her personal belief system which I think might have been vastly more interesting to the world had she allowed herself to really feel at ease with/allowed herself to explore what she was experiencing.
I think she was a very spiritual, giving woman by nature. She happened to be raised in a certain faith and I think the restrictive nature of that faith just wasn’t answering all that she was experiencing. Her mind was creative enough to adapt and to question but, she seems to have been very wary of letting this new way of thinking take shape. This certainly could lead to depression.
However, there are very many people in this world that have found that the confines of their particular organized religion just doesn’t hold all the answers. And, these individuals allow their creative thought to flow…to find new solutions rather than allow themselves to be restricted.
Mother Teresa was a positive force for this world. But, in this regard, she just wasn’t the beacon of light.

One needs to delinate between the dark night and depression. Again i say severe depression paralzes you and one can become non functional. Dark night of the soul means one is struggling in one’s beliefs and still continues to do the work of God even though feeling abandoned by Him. Truly one who suffers from depression needs help and medication but also a struggling spiritualty is one thing to hold onto because being without some hope is diastrous. Keep plugging even though it is difficult and trying and get the help needed but don’t closeoneself off from the helping hand of God.. He can carry you when things are the toughest and knowing He truly understands your struggle unconditionally makes it easier to get up in the morning.. Cathy

I am so grateful for this article. I have had both, the dark night, and clinical depression. I have reached for help, medically, and spiritually, and for me the combination, not only helps me press on, but has given me so much more insight into others, which has made me feel not apart and isolated from everything, and everyone, which is one of my many treasured gifts. Thank you and God bless.

At some point in this lifetime we will all have a dark day or two or maybe hundreds or maybe even thousands! For some of us, years of dark days.
Even Jesus Christ had a few dark days REMEMBER???? The point being, never give up hope!
In the darkest hours and in the greatest need God gives us some kind of sign or feeling to let us know that he is ALWAYS with us. Never give up hope. As for Mother Theresa, may she have a seat at the right hand of God in Heaven, as she so deserves. Even she was human, however, did not give up hope!

Thank you for this insightful exposition on the differences between a ‘dark night’ and clinical depression. Six and a half years ago I was diagnosed with a benign, slow-growing astrocytoma and subsequently had surgery. Since that time, I have experienced bouts of emotional unpleasantness which I assumed were manifestations of clinical depression. I now realize that I have been experiencing popcorn bursts of dark nightedness (if that’s a word). I never had any feelings of hurting myself, but I experienced spells of severe unhappiness. I now realize that these ’bouts’ were/are probably just dark nights. My doctor put me on prozac (a very light dosage) to address the ‘depression’; I now realize that the surgery destroyed the part of my brain responsible for neurotransmitter generation and regulation. Suffice to say, I was/am not clinically depressed, however, I am biochemically unable to generate and regulate seratonin. Reading your article educated me to the difference between dark nights and clinical depression. Thank you for your blog, it has made a scared woman in Michigan realize that she still has a lot to learn about this thing we call depression.

When I was a teenager, I attempted suicide several times, always because I was in terrible pain from depression. I wanted desperately to go to heaven and be with God. When I finally landed in an adolescent psychiatric hospital, I found myself alone with nothing to read but the Bible. Although I have continued to struggle with severe depression ever since, I have never again attempted suicide because of two revelations that I had from reading the Bible. The first was that life is a gift from God and that He would not have given it to me if He didn’t want me to live it, and the second was that I didn’t have to die to be with God. Perhaps what I was experiencing was both “spiritual darkness” and clinical depression.

Often times in a regular mental physility too many of the doctors have no religous beliefs what so ever and then diagnose people with depression or some other mental condition when they really don’t have a problem. I wish there were still many people in the medical field who believed in God and the things he does.

Thank for a most helpful and informative article. The insights and distinctions that it clarified will be very useful in my work as a college counselor.

Frustrated:
Did you change your username on the comboxes?

I want to cite this feature on the relation between The Dark Night and clinical depression in my writing; this likely WILL appear on the Internet, but consistent in all ways with BeliefNet Rules/Conduct I shall not here name these Web-sources.
That said, I would like to commend the writers– apparently two counting the quotations of the Confessor of the Church here– regarding the sometimes subtle distinctions one must make differentiating and comparing the Dark Night to (major) depression, the “blue blues.” This is an important consideration for ME, who am coextensively an avowed hermit (Anglican persuasion) and a person subject to (bipolar) major depression. It is likewise abundantly clear to me that there is a profound discrepancy between my emotional troughs and the testing-of-the-spiritual/noetic-null-hypothesis which is the substance of my Dark Night in Spirit. The latter– the putting-in-abeyance of rationality and artifice to experience LOVE — actively and passively– in a wordless, not-intellectual way — with the Will/Won’t of desiring-the-good-for-the-existential-Other– not displaced Intellectualizations– THIS TO ME TOUCHSTONES WHAT I WOULD/SHOULD IDENTIFY AS A GENUINE MOTIVATIONAL PROCESS– WHEREAS WHEN THERE IS DEPRESSION– CLINICALLY DEFINABLE AS SUCH– THERE IS ALWAYS SELF-ABSORPTION AND THUS “SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS.” ONE NEEDS TO OVERCOME SUCH LACK OF VISION TO DO THE EXPERIMENT-WITH-TRUTH (M. GANDHI’S TERM FOR SATYAGRAHA-TRUTHFORCE ACTIVITY) REQUIRE TO “LIVE” THE DARK NIGHT– CLEARLY IDENTIFIED AS A WALK-OF-FAITH BY JUAN DE LA CRUZ– AND IS NOT FROM DESPAIR.
I am profoundly grateful that I may be afforded the opportunity both to read your clinical observations as to what the Dark Night REALLY IS/IS-NOT, as well as to express here my corroborating sentiments on this subject. I indeed shall follow this Website– by making it a “bookmark” (favorite) as a consequence of this reading, and this subsequent opportunity to express on this topic.
–Vernon Lynn Stephens, Quantum Culdee, MSSW
D.S.M. IV-TR # 296.44
7p EST (USA)– Thursday, January 17, 2008

Hi Therese
I’ve read your article and although I suppose it should distill the situation for me, I find myself still struggling to determine from what it is I suffer. I have sought a multitude of guidance and treatment and am devoid of discernible progress.
If you have any suggestions, contacts, etc. I would appreciate your input. I am in the South Florida area.
Regards
DG

This is a meaningful post! Out culture for the most part discounts the classic dark night of the soul experience – and we have to learn to embrace it for what it can teach us…

Well personally I thought the posting was helpful in getting a better handle on the difference between the two and if nothing else it did certainly generate a lot of discussion both positive and negative. A few of the posts I believe even helped clarify it a little further for me. For me they have seemed to be entangled in my mind a lot of the time but after reading this there seem to be some real distinctive aspects that I might be able to work with to help untangle the mess and clear up some of the confusion. So thanks. LOL

Thanks for bringing this to the Light.
I have experienced a lot of ‘dark nights’. Through these experiences, I have had a a ‘closer walk with Thee’. The ‘dark night’ can be the forerunner to clinical depression. However, Jesus Christ is the great physician who heals all wounds. ‘Walk in the Light of His Love’ helps us confront the cause and helps us to understand the effect it has to our being. There is a time and place for medication but never discount the power and love of Christ.

Is there a word that means more than beautiful? That is what i think of your artical and those that took the time to comment. All too beautiful and gracious are you. Peace unto you

Why invoke god at all? there is no evidence of any sort of deity or deities. how about realizing the fact that we are going to die and there is no after-life. it makes no sense to invoke superstitious beliefs in the face of a clinical depression. it often blurs the line, because one could say ‘oh god will cure you, so just pray and everything will go as plan’. when we get rid of the crutch of god and realize this is our only life, then one can surely say they have beaten the black dog of depression. absurd article is absurd.

To yoj:
If you are not Christian, then don’t come onto a Christian blog. This topic is very openly on Christian values, as it talks about Saints, Mother Theresa, and says it is filed under Catholicism. By saying the things you said, you have torn down some people’s only reason for living. If you really want to help people in their depression, then quit taking away their hope. I know many people who have suffered from severe depression and have completely recovered from it through their faith. Also, this article is not encouraging people to just say, “Oh God will cure you, so just pray and everything will go as planned.” It is pointing out the fact that what some may think is depression may partially or completely be because of a darkness in their spiritual life. There is a God, whether you believe it or not, and He is working in your life whether you allow yourself to see it or not. Anytime somebody does a favor for you, it was the power of God that led them to do that. Also, this article does explain that the symptoms and feelings people are experiencing may truly be clinical depression, it points out some of the ways to differentiate the two, points out that a person can experience a spiritual darkess and clinical depression at the same time, and this article encourages people to seek medical attention as well as focusing on their prayer and spiritual life. Please, for the sake of all of us who’s life truly does depend on our religious and spiritual beliefs, quit denying the presence of God, and quit killing us.

I believe I have experienced a combination of both for over 30 years. The reason I feel this is that the “Dark Night” began with a series of spiritual consolations prior to a great “fall” from the ordinary spiritual “light of day”. Associated with the intensity of the first part of the trial that lasted 10 years was some symptoms of depression that I agree are real, but also see as a repercussion of intense spiritual suffering and attacks. In fact, I have lead a happy, healthy, and productive life on a certain level with my family; capable of joy in the midst of what I would consider to be a terrible trial. After the tenth year of this trial i experienced an intensification. I went to Medjugorje, and then a few months later prayed a novena for 9 days to the Divine Mercy. Shortly after the novena was complete I experienced another consolation from God- in a flash of spiritual light I received an interior healing. This “illumination” was different than the ones i experienced a decade earlier. This time I could actually sense the presence of Jesus Christ, and the light that filled my soul seemed so much purer and holier. I could tell that this healing was partial, but I said a prayer- “Lord, whatever you are doing with me, keep doing it.” I still experience terrible darknesses; almost strangulating at times. And I usually feel that this trial won’t end. But i remember the consolations that Christ gave me. Also, for some reason God didn’t place me in a monastery, although I tried early on. Instead, he lets me find comfort and joy in family and friends in ordinary life. The most important things that comfort me are the Holy Rosary, which actually releases this sort of suffocating darkness and nourishes my soul instantly. Going to Mass and receiving Holy Communion, and especially offering communion up for various souls seems to bring relief and joy to me as I feel their relief too. If anyone can get anything out of this entry, I’d just say believe in God, and that although the undercurrent of life seems to be misery and darkness, that is the “Big Lie” of the devil and the world. What is really happening is that this poor world is being quickly surrounded and conquered by the love of God.

I believe there is a HUGE difference between depression and Dark Night of the Soul.
I have been going through DNOTS since Feb 2008, and I realized after I got over the shock that something weird was happening to me that THIS was different than any other depressed state I have been in.
I have always been one whom was able to talk myself out of depression by stating ” This too shall pass”. So I would go through it knowing it would pass.
But this Dark Night is well……very different……….you are correct….it does not really interrupt your sleeping habits….it does at first, but eventually you settle back into sleeping properly….in fact most nights I sleep like a baby. I meditate too which helps. I started awhile after my initial awakening.
I did not meditate before Feb 2008, in fact I never thought about God or included spirituality in my life what-so-ever until Oct 2008.
So you don’t have to be spiritual to have the Dark Night come over you. What I DID notice though is prior (2007) to my Dark Night Initiation was that I had a profound sense of THIS is NOT my life………there’s got to be more to life than THIS…..and I had a HUGE dissatisfaction for the dishonesty I was seeing in the world and how I felt that my REAL self was not allowed to shine through and I resented the fact that I could not just BE myself (professionalism). Then at some point ALL the methods I used to accomplish things that always worked in the past, they suddenly did not work anymore. Someone changed the rules and forgot to tell me. LOL
So I really think it is the feeling of WANTING to BE yourself in this world and feeling like you CANNOT show it because society rules do not allow it. Or at least YOU think society will not accept the REAL you. I was only doing what I thought was acceptable to survive in the world so I CONFORMED. Not really my style though. I have friend going through the same thing. We were not close before her awakening, but we are now because we are each other’s support.