By Orson Scott Card
It has truly been a pleasure to converse — or at least take turns speaking — with Dr. Mohler. His attitude of quiet analysis is a refreshing change from the vitriol and slander that I’ve seen from so many of his denomination when they talk about my religion.
His final message is reassuring in many ways. First, his assurance that Mormons can be good citizens and should not be deprived of their right to an equal place in the American political scene should be adopted as the guideline for people of all denominations.
It is hard to think of any religion that is not persecuted somewhere. The world is full of religions because people do not agree about the nature or even the existence of divinity; yet America was founded on a commitment to the idea that differing opinions about God should not be factored into a person’s eligibility for public office.
When Dr. Mohler quotes Paul’s warning that the Church of Christ should reject “a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you,” we Mormons wholeheartedly agree. We believe, and history supports, that the “traditional Christianity” that Dr. Mohler so able explicates is remote indeed from the gospel that Paul taught.
So I am happy to accept the formulation suggested by Dr. Mohler’s last sentence: “Mormonism is not just another form of Christianity — it is incompatible with ‘traditional Christian orthodoxy.’”
Amen! Absolutely correct! We send out missionaries to every country that will allow them to enter precisely because we believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ is incompatible with “traditional Christian orthodoxy.”
At the same time, we recognize that “traditional Christian orthodoxy” represents a sincere desire and effort, on the part of millions of believers throughout the world, to teach and live by the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Despite our deep differences of belief over the nature of God and his plans for his children, we recognize that those who believe in the other Christian faiths have taken a giant step closer to fulfilling the intentions of our Lord. They are, in heart and mind, Christians.
We ask only the same favor in return. Let’s take that word “traditional” and make use of it. Instead of saying that we are “not Christian,” which is an obvious falsehood by any rational, widely accepted definition of the word Christian, let us agree that Mormons are “nontraditional Christians.”
We’ll live with that label quite happily, because it’s true. We are Christians, but nontraditional ones. And if we ever become traditional, we’ll have no reason to exist as a separate religion!
Meanwhile, history provides reason for optimism. The pope, while proclaiming that the Catholic Church and, despite defects, the Orthodox churches, represent the only authoritative Church of Christ, he still allows room for the “nonapostolic” Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Pentacostalists, and others that proclaim the name of Christ to be considered “Christian communities” and to have value.
It took less than 500 years for Protestantism to graduate to a “tradition” instead of a “reformation” or, in the former Catholic view, a “heresy.”
Baptists, who were once viewed as a wild-eyed sect of the American lower classes, have now been around long enough to be “traditional” right along with the older Protestant denominations.
Now we live in a world where all believers in Christ — traditional or non — are assailed and persecuted. There is no shortage of atheists in foreign countries and in America who would like to limit the ability of any believer in a revelatory religion to achieve full participation and leadership in American politics.
The intense criticism, both public and whispered, focused on President Bush precisely because he believes that God has intervened and continues to intervene in his life should be the wakeup call to all of us.
Born-again Christians and Mormons agree on this: God is alive and working in the world, and his Spirit touches the lives of the faithful, offering guidance, comfort, and even miraculous intervention. This earns Baptists and Mormons the ridicule or hatred of the anti-religious extremists, who declare that our beliefs are a form of madness and proof that we are unfit for public trust.
Call us “nontraditional Christians” and continue to encourage your communicants not to believe our doctrines; we’ll happily continue to call you “traditional Christians” and teach people why they should believe our doctrines.
But when it comes to politics, let’s make common cause to maintain the full participation in American political life of believers in a living, active God whose Spirit touches the lives of all his children.
Let’s work together to try to end the persecution of Christians throughout the world, for the enemies of Christ make no distinction between “traditional” and “nontraditional” Christians when they’re looking for targets of their fear and hatred.
On these issues, we are on the same side.
And every “traditional Christian” who, like Dr. Mohler, will include us nontraditional Christians as equally entitled to participation in all aspects of American public life, without encouraging people to vote against Mormon candidates because of their faith alone, will find that we Mormons are good friends to have in a world that is increasingly perilous for followers of Christ.
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Dennis: "Anything is possible" is not an argument and not much of a professional position in one's field of knowledge. But it is the ground that the Book of Mormon stands on.
And you might as well stop with your cutting and pasting what you think is your ironclad argument for the existence of the precolumbian horse. Is there one non-mormon scientist that takes this stuff seriously? No.
Your argument is liking asking someone to disprove a Sasquatch finding. Your argumentation is analagous to the following:
"Several possible sasquatch handprints were documented in Oklahoma. The prints did not appear to be artificially manufactured. They exhibited comparable characteristics with casts of hand impressions made in the Pacific Northwest. Insofar as these similarities exist, the contemporary prints provide a degree of support for the validity of the casts, made decades earlier.
Perhaps the information and comparisons presented here may serve to facilitate an increased understanding of sasquatch biology, especially by those with backgrounds in primate anatomy, and prompt further study of the Washington casts. Field investigators should be encouraged in their awareness of sasquatch handprints as a potential area of research and evidence collection."
Now Dennis, if you can't disprove these Sasquatch findings, then the Sasquatch exists. That is your "anything is possible" line of argument, without, of course, your patronizing and gratuitous, ad hominem shots.
Anonymous: And you might as well stop with your cutting and pasting what you think is your ironclad argument for the existence of the precolumbian horse. Is there one non-mormon scientist that takes this stuff seriously? No.
Dennis: Of course! You have proven yourself to be such an expert on Mormon Scientists and Mormonsism. (Not!) I have given you LDS scientists that do agree and take this data seriously. (I even offered you contact with one, but you declined). Then you have the non-LDS Canadian researcher Yuri Kuchinsky, who has also offered substantial evidence on the survival of the pre-Columbian horse. M.F. Ashley Montague (a late British Anthropologist who taught at Harvard) taught that the horse never became extinct on this continent. So yes, there are non-LDS scientists that take the survival of the Pre-Columbian horse seriously. As a linguist, I can state in my professional opinion that name-sharing occurred for certain flora and fauna but I'm afraid that you would have difficulty understanding the explanation. You have trouble even understanding plain facts laid before you.
You seem to get a bit perturbed when you are losing an argument that you have no hope of winning and when you cannot provide any evidence to the contrary. Testy, testy, testy. Have you ever read the book, "How to Win Friends and Influence People?" I didn't think so.
As for your sasquatch, have you found bones of the sasquatch that have been dated to any era? How would you know it was a sasquatch bone? Sasquatch have always been a mythological creature while horses are native to the American continent and according to all scientists, evolved here. The question is to whether or not they ever became extinct. Well, Native American floklore of the Plains Indians say that they have always had horses and Kuchinsky and Montague concur. That fact of the matter is that bones have been found dated to the Book of Mormon era (Dr. Sorenson gives specifics of these findings in his book). All of the evidence I have posted hereon also gives tangible evidence of horse bone from the Pre-Columbian era.
Again, you can not win this argument. You have not done the research and are not knowledgeable enough on the subject to make any informed or intelligent argument concerning it.
Furthermore, I will continue to cite these evidences until such time as you can find empirical evidence refuting the findings. If there is such a thing it should be a relatively easy task as each of these evidences are found in peer reviewed journals. So again here are the evidences that you have refused to address. Address these and I will post another list. This is just the tip of the iceberg but why should I continue to give evidences when your only defense is rhetorical and not in the least substantial?
"Relics were discovered, July 1918, in an excavation made by the Canada Car and Foundry Company about 80 feet north from the turning
basin. Westforl. About twelve bones of a mammal and a finely made copper spearhead were found together about 40 feet below the surface of the ground. The materials found were submitted to the Geological Survey and Harlan L. Smith, archeologist, reported the results of examination as follows, "According to Mr. Lawrence I. Lambe, vertebrate paleontologist of the Geological Survey and Mr. Sternherg, preparator of paleontological specimens the bone marked B 11 . . . is of a cloven-footed animals, possibly a buffalo, or a specimen of domestic cattle....Bones marked B 10 and B 12 to B 13 inclusive, Mr. Lambe and Mr. Sternberg both pronounced to be those of a horse and not petrified. Mr. Sternberg is convinced that most of them belong to the same individual. The point with the flanged tang made of copper marked C 1 is characteristic and typical of prehistoric Indian handiwork.' (horse and mettalurgy from prehistoric indians?).
Further evidence of renegade horses in the new world was found in a burial mound in Wisconsin. A horse's skull was found buried with other
indian. artifacts which were subsequently dated to around 700 AD " (Chuck Baily, Louisiana Mounds Society Newsletter 31 March 15, 1990
Page 4)
"Survival of Pre-Columbian Horse?" Holland Hague has written to inquire if anybody has information about the possibility of the pre-Columbian horse having survived in this hemisphere. He included documentation of horse bones radiocarbon dated to A.D. years prior to Columbus that were then not followed up by the scholars involved. The pre-Columbian horse was supposed to have become extinct about 10,000 years ago, when the sabre-toothed tiger, mammoth, giant ground sloth and other large mammals in this hemisphere died out." (Lousiana Mounds Society Newsletter 29 January 1, 1990 page 5).
And then of course we have carvings of the horse found in Chichen Itza, in Peru, and rock art from the Anasazi period depicting the horse.
And then there is the evidence that you presented from "Canadian Geographic" placing horses to the time period of the Book of Mormon.
The information that you took out of context from FAIR and now the evidence presented from your post from the National Science Foundation
saying the exact same thing that Ash did in his article about the usefulness of the horse for food and nutrition.
And lets not forget Olsen’s article about the great similarities in Indian Horsemanship compared to those on the Eastern steppes and her
bafflement of the same. She couldn’t explain it.
Then we also have the finds in Wisconsin, Louisiana, 13 sites in Illinois according to the Illinois Archaeological FAUNMAP database.
We still have the sites in the Yucatan and in Peru.
The evidence is overwhelming. You have not refuted any of these and cannot! The facts are the facts.
Maybe its time you concede that you don not know what you are talking about when it comes to the survival of the North American horse in small pockets on the American continent.
Dennis: I have spent more than two weeks trying to find some peer review of the evidence you cite to support your argument and it doesn't appear to exist.
Then look at the journals I have cited from. You actually have to leave your seat at your computer and go to the library to find peer journals. These usually aren't available online, unless you subscribe to JSTOR, MUSE or other online archives.
Here are some for starters:
American Anthropologist"An Inquiry Into the Nature of Plains Indian Cultural Development" Vol. 65. No. 2 (April 1963) pp. 355-369.
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, "Mitochondrial DNA and the Origins of the American Horse" Vol 99 No 16 (August 6, 2002). pp. 10905-10910.
Journal of Mammalogy, "Pre-Columbian Horses from Yucatan" Vol. 38 No 2 (May 1957) p.278.
American Anthropolist, "Where Did the Plains Indians Get Their Horses/" Vol 40 No. 1 (Jan-Mar 1938) pp.112-117.
American Antiquity, "Major Revisions in the Pleistocene Age Assignments for North American Human Skeletons by c-14 Accelerator Mass Spectrometry" Vol 50 No. 1 (Jan 1985) pp. 136-140.
Journal of Archaeological Science "Radiocarbon Dating of Bone by Accelerator Mass Spectrometry" Vol 11 (1984) pp 165-170.
Science, "Accelerator Mass Spectrometry for Measurements of Long-lived Radioisotopes" Vol. 236 No. 4801 (May 1, 1987) pp. 543-550.
Southwest Journal of Anthropology "Western Prehistory in the Light of Carbon 14 Dating" Vol 7 No 3 (Autumn 1951) pp. 289-313. (Notice the Dates given to the Mount Mazama eruption).
The American Antiquarian and Oriental Journal "Elephants in America" Vol 9 (Jan-Nov 1887) pp. 202-203.
Science, "Paleo-Indian Remains from Laguan de Tagua Tagua, Central Chile" Vol 161 No 3846 (Sep 13, 1968) pp. 1137-1138.
Bulletin of the Massachusetts Archaeological Society, "An Osseous Find at Follins Pond" (Vol 18 No 2) Jan 1957.
The Journal of Southern History, "The Indian and the Horse" Vol 21 No. 3 (Aug 1955) pp. 421-422.
The Modern Language Review, "The Polyglot Vernacular of the Canadian North West" Vol 10 No 1 (Jan 1915) pp. 88-89.
Science, "Geologic Antiquity of Man in America" Vol 93 No 2422 (May 30, 1941) pp 505-514.
That should keep you busy for a while and are all from the bibliography that I am utilizing in the composition of my New Book (as of yet untitled) that I am writing. The book deals with all aspects of the Horse and its survival in America which deals with the evidence in all of its aspects: Archaeological Evidences, Dating Methods, The Indian Pony (with emphasis on the Appaloosa, Pinto and the Mustang), Folklore of the Plains Indians, Native American Horsemanship and its relationship to that of the Natives of the Asian Steppes, and Linguistic Evidences.
After you are done with these I will give you many more references. As previously stated, this is an argument that you can not win. I have spent years in my investigation and have read more about this topic than you can even imagine.
And as yet you have not addressed these evidences that I have given time and time again. How are we going to ever move on until you do your homework? You need to give answers based on substance, not rhetoric.
"Relics were discovered, July 1918, in an excavation made by the Canada Car and Foundry Company about 80 feet north from the turning
basin. Westforl. About twelve bones of a mammal and a finely made copper spearhead were found together about 40 feet below the surface of the ground. The materials found were submitted to the Geological Survey and Harlan L. Smith, archeologist, reported the results of examination as follows, "According to Mr. Lawrence I. Lambe, vertebrate paleontologist of the Geological Survey and Mr. Sternherg, preparator of paleontological specimens the bone marked B 11 . . . is of a cloven-footed animals, possibly a buffalo, or a specimen of domestic cattle....Bones marked B 10 and B 12 to B 13 inclusive, Mr. Lambe and Mr. Sternberg both pronounced to be those of a horse and not petrified. Mr. Sternberg is convinced that most of them belong to the same individual. The point with the flanged tang made of copper marked C 1 is characteristic and typical of prehistoric Indian handiwork.' (horse and mettalurgy from prehistoric indians?).
Further evidence of renegade horses in the new world was found in a burial mound in Wisconsin. A horse's skull was found buried with other
indian. artifacts which were subsequently dated to around 700 AD " (Chuck Baily, Louisiana Mounds Society Newsletter 31 March 15, 1990
Page 4)
"Survival of Pre-Columbian Horse?" Holland Hague has written to inquire if anybody has information about the possibility of the pre-Columbian horse having survived in this hemisphere. He included documentation of horse bones radiocarbon dated to A.D. years prior to Columbus that were then not followed up by the scholars involved. The pre-Columbian horse was supposed to have become extinct about 10,000 years ago, when the sabre-toothed tiger, mammoth, giant ground sloth and other large mammals in this hemisphere died out." (Lousiana Mounds Society Newsletter 29 January 1, 1990 page 5).
And then of course we have carvings of the horse found in Chichen Itza, in Peru, and rock art from the Anasazi period depicting the horse.
And then there is the evidence that you presented from "Canadian Geographic" placing horses to the time period of the Book of Mormon.
The information that you took out of context from FAIR and now the evidence presented from your post from the National Science Foundation
saying the exact same thing that Ash did in his article about the usefulness of the horse for food and nutrition.
And lets not forget Olsen’s article about the great similarities in Indian Horsemanship compared to those on the Eastern steppes and her
bafflement of the same. She couldn’t explain it.
Then we also have the finds in Wisconsin, Louisiana, 13 sites in Illinois according to the Illinois Archaeological FAUNMAP database.
We still have the sites in the Yucatan and in Peru.
And by the way:
You mentioned that no scientist that is not LDS subscribes to the notions that the horse did not survive into modern prehistory America. Well Yuri Kuchinsky (famed Canadian researcher) and M. F. Ashley Montague (Harvard Anthropologist) did subscribe to the notion. You need to stop making claims about things that you know nothing about.
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