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Blogalogue

Friday April 18, 2008

Category: Is Our Pain God's Problem?

N.T. Wright: God's Plan to Rescue Us

Thanks, Bart, for the clear and actually moving account of your former faith, your questionings, and your eventual abandonment of Christian belief. I was glad to hear you say that you wrote the book not to encourage others to follow you into agnosticism (though I guess that is how the book may well work rhetorically for some), but to encourage all of us to think. That is something I constantly tell people: I believe in the authority of scripture, and in Christian tradition as the community of discourse within which Christians hear that scripture – but also, importantly, in the proper use of reason. Our culture has fallen prey to emotivism, leading people to say ‘I feel’ when they mean ‘I think’, and then – an easy shift – to allow feeling to trump thinking, and then to replace it altogether. That way, I think we agree, lie chaos and folly.

There are two large, general elements of your book, and your blog post, which I want to chew over in this first response.

First, picking up that point about thinking and feeling, I do think the rhetorical impact both of your book and of your brief opening statement is to make a powerful appeal to the emotions, perhaps particularly to the emotions of western persons such as ourselves who are insulated, geographically and culturally, from so many of the world’s horrors. You spend a good deal of time in the book, and even in your brief posting, detailing some of these horrors, as though to remind readers of what (surely?) all intelligent people know already. (I wouldn’t have been able to rattle off the actual statistics, but none of the phenomena came as a surprise.)

There are of course multiple miseries in the world, and for many (most?) of them it’s impossible to say, ‘There, look, some good came out of it.’ I think we both react in the same way against that suggestion. I once heard Rowan Williams suggest that it might actually be immoral to try to ‘solve’ the problem of evil, because as soon as you say, ‘There, look, that makes it all right, doesn’t it?’ you have radically belittled the problem, blinding yourself to the real, powerful and radical nature of evil. But I’m not sure what logical or moral (as opposed to rhetorical) force you add to your case by describing in such detail the horrors of the world.

In a sense, you simply bring us back to where western Europe found itself after the Lisbon earthquake on All Saints Day 1755. Up to then some had said, ‘Look at the world, think about it, and you’ll see that God exists and that Christianity is true.’ The earthquake was a wake-up call to casual western religion, and precipitated the whole Enlightenment revolution, first towards a detached Deism and then into agnosticism or atheism. Have you done anything other than recapitulate that moment? And, if you haven’t, I guess I want to ask: were you not aware, earlier, of the scale of evil in the world – the Holocaust, the dying babies, the inexplicable ‘natural’ disasters, and so on? You’re not implying, are you, that people (like me, for instance) who still hold to Christian faith are somehow failing to notice these horrors, or to reflect soberly and deeply on them? And if, as you say, your book (and your blog posting) do not actually constitute an argument against Christian faith (‘If you reflect on these issues you’ll see that the Christian claim is incredible’), might it not seem that the shift in your own position which you have described is a shift which came about, not because of logical argument, but because of other (unspecified) factors, with the problem of suffering providing a kind of intellectual backdrop to a journey whose main energy was supplied from elsewhere? I’m not saying the arguments are unimportant. But I’m trying to understand what you’re saying when you deny that they constitute an appeal to anyone else to follow your journey.

The second large, general point concerns your handling, and description, of the Bible and Christian faith. I want to take issue with your analysis of the biblical material. This is where I must refer to my own treatment of the same problem in Evil and the Justice of God, which forms part of the groundwork for my new book Surprised by Hope. I don’t know if you’ve read either of them, but in the former I give a very different account from you of the Old Testament material, seeing the call of Abraham not (as on your p. 66) as God simply calling Abraham ‘to be in a special relationship with him’ but as the moment when God launches the long-range plan to rescue the world from its misery. In other words, I read the story of Israel as a whole (not merely in its individual parts, which by themselves, taken out of that context, might be reduced to ‘Israel sinned; God punished them’, etc.,) as the story of theodicy-in-practice: ‘this is the narrative through whose outworking the creator God will eventually put all things to rights.’ Hence the promises of Isaiah 11 and so forth.

From this there flow three sub-points. First, your reading of ‘apocalyptic’ seems to me inaccurate in terms of substance and quite out of date in terms of scholarship. The sharp disjunction between ‘prophetic’ and ‘apocalyptic,’ and the characterization of apocalyptic in terms of dualism, pessimism, etc., is very misleading, growing out of an older scholarship which had no sympathy for what the apocalyptists were trying to do.

Second, I was startled that when discussing Paul you never even mentioned that Romans is all about ‘the righteousness of God,' i.e. the very question of your whole book; you reduce Paul’s understanding to a simplistic substitutionary account of the cross, which, though important, doesn’t catch the whole picture or his whole argument.

Third, you never factored in the way in which the gospels offer themselves as the climax of precisely that Abraham-rooted story of Israel-as-God’s-answer-to-the-problem. Jesus’ inauguration of God’s Kingdom (and the culmination of that kingdom-inauguration in the cross and resurrection), as I have argued elsewhere, was precisely his answer to the question ‘what does it look like when God is running the world’ – the very question of your whole book. It wasn’t clear to me whether you were saying that Jesus was mistaken in his beliefs and teachings . . . I did have the sense, frequently, that the form of Christian belief you were rejecting was a particular kind of north American Protestantism which I don’t believe itself did justice to the material.

In particular, of course, the resurrection of Jesus is absolutely central for me. Like many people ancient and modern, you don’t find it credible. If I didn’t believe it I wouldn’t have the beliefs I do about other things.

There is much besides, but this will do for a start. I suspect we are going to be frustrated at being limited to three posts. We’ve both already more than doubled our 500-word target on these first posts. I’m happy with that if you are.

Look forward to hearing back

Tom

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Comments

I think Wright may be onto something. . .

that finally, Ehrman had a *visceral* response to pain and suffering that no amount of reasoning, no amount of ink spilled, could overcome.

Been there. And I'm always on the verge of going there again.

And I can't understand people like Wright, who don't understand.

I agree with you tanya. Ehrman did seem to have a visceral response.

The balance between my suffering and my faith can feel rather tenuous at times. A deep sense of suffering can elicit a faith experience in me, but when I feel lost ins suffering faith can seem meaningless. I'm not always sure what my faith is in.

I think that debates like this are futile. I feel that the dichotomous forced choice of atheist or theist is false. I'm an agnostic myself because I don't feel that belief in God is necessary to know God. Faith isn't based on belief, and one can have strong beliefs and still lack genuine faith. Doubts and questions may undermine belief but not faith. Faith as an experience can be stengthened by the experience of doubt. Whereas, belief and doubt on the intellectual an non-expeiential level just go round and round.

Hello Marmalade & Tanya. Faith is defined (in different variations) as a believing in something (whether these are religious values, or things for which there is no physical evidence). So, if one fails to believe... one surely fails to have faith. For example; If I state I have faith in Jesus being my Savior. But I do not believe he rose from the dead (for which there is no physical proof). I basically have nothing to base my faith upon in regards of Jesus. The two are intertwined. There is no way to seperate them by mental exercises.

Personally, I want to respond this way though; I believe there are those who indeed do understand the positions you find yourself in. That is, the continuous struggle between suffering and remaining faithful. Being accustomed to suffering myself, I can identify with such struggles. The wrestling with - in my case - God. But my faith is not shaken by it. For I believe He is, He knows, and He redeems (whether now, or through eternal restoration).

Bishop Wright,

I enjoy your books and look forward to the new ones. Keep the TRUTH coming. Ehrman like many of his anti-Christ supporters miss the complete fact that Abraham did not ONLY represent God's relationship with Israel. That whole account and everything afterwards was an unfolding of God's relationship to MANKIND. So simple...but so complicated for the carnal mind to figure out.

I get tired of all these WHIMPS crying and falling out when things don't go like they want it to...Yes, I said WHIMPS...you whiners!I've been HOMELESS, sick, without MONEY and in desperate conditions because of THIS WORLD and the SIN therein. I may cry to God, but I thank God I was never a WHINER...Ehrman and all these other that think GOd should just remove the effects of sin for THEIR convenience (As if they'd all of a sudden turn if he did) are just a bunch of CRYIN' BABIES with no understanding of the nature of sin.

I'll put the theological explaination to the side for a minute, the scripture is right...You're not FIT for the Kingdom if you place your hand to the plow looking back...forget the spirito-pshchology...and all the comforting anecdotes...Just GET SAVED and surrender your hearts, not your garments...Ehrmann should be ashamed of himself for fakin' as long as he did.

Keep writing Bishop...I loved EVERY word!

God bless

By the way Marmalade said this:

"How can people say things like this and not get immediately challenged? The only way someone could say this is if they were largely uninformed about pagan mythology. Tons of pagan gods were born of human women and some of them were resurrection deities. Dionysus is the most well-known example that preceeded Christianity and that probably was a major influence."

I see you're another parralellomaniac and you certainly don't the the TRUE story of Dionysis...Check out the pRE-SECOND CENTURY NARRATIVE...Zeus...(Dionysis daddy)fell in love with Semele the daughter of Cadmus and she got pregnant...by the way Zeus had this little problem...he LUSTED after many women...no reason to think Semele was left untouched...That junk had NOTHING to do with early or late Christian belief, only in the mind of those desperately looking for any reason to not believe.

Things like this simply show how uninformed you and other like you are when it comes to factual and verifiable records...so that shoe you were trying to put on the other person...wear it...it fits well!

Your further errors and presuppositional fallacies are far too many for me wast time with at this point, I've gotta get back to this debate. PEACE!

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There are always at least two sides to every belief. The Beliefnet Blogalogue pairs writers who differ on important questions about faith, and asks them to debate timely topics.

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