The problem with using the Bible as the basis for running a society is that it would always be somebody's interpretation of the Bible, and a worst case scenario is that it might be your interpretation, Mr. Klinghoffer.
I too have read and studied the Bible all of my life, and I just can't recognize the Bible in so much of what you have said in our "dialogue." I really work at finding common ground with people across the political spectrum on moral issues that transcend ideology and politics. But we have been unable to find much common ground in this dialogue. I still find many of the things you have said absolutely astonishing.
I still can't get over your contention that most of what the Bible says about the poor don't apply to America because our poor people are so well off here. I replied that most Christian clergy and Jewish rabbis that I know would find that statement incredulous, but got no direct reply from you. In your latest post you say, in an equally unbelievable way, that wealth is the most consistent test of whether a society is righteous in God's eyes. I read the Hebrew prophets in a totally different way--that the best test of a nation's righteousness is how it treats the poorest and most vulnerable. That is always how God judges a society. Read Isaiah, Amos, and Micah.
Then you say that war is just a "tool of statecraft." Really? The Hebrew Scriptures warn against militarism--"not trusting in horses and chariots"--and Jesus calls we Christians to be peacemakers and love our enemies. In fact, you note in your book Christians who believe that:
Quakers, Amish, and Mennonites, among others, can point to the teachings not only of Jesus himself but of ancient and medieval sages - Tertullian, Origen, Francis of Assisi, Menno Simons, down to a twentieth-century figure like Thomas Merton.
It's interesting that "Jesus himself" and the earliest church fathers were all opposed to war. So, what happened? You say, quite correctly, "With the conversion of the Emperor Constantine (324 C.E.), all that changed." Indeed, it did. And you then cite such esteemed theologians as Oliver Cromwell and Gen. George S. Patton. When you say in your latest post that war is merely the normal tool of statecraft, does that mean all wars? Every time a nation decides to go to war as an expression of its statecraft is justifiable? What about when one nation with Christians and Jews decides to go to war with another nation with Christians and Jews? Are both nations justified? Is there any religious critique or discrimination possible here? Let me guess, you support all the wars America has fought. I could never get you to tell me what you think about the war in Iraq.
I could go on, issue after issue, but I don't think that would be productive. We just disagree, profoundly, on what biblical imperatives suggest about society and politics. I am very glad that America has a separation of church and state and that people who would prefer a more theocratic vision of society (as I interpret you to prefer) don't get to run things they way they would like. We both have to convince our fellow citizens that what we believe is best for the common good. That's a good thing and I welcome that debate. Thanks for this one.
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God is the Alpha and the Omega BUT......the beginning may not be within the grasp of our knowledge. All our understanding is afixed to the BIBLE and, of course, the book is awsome. Yet, it is composed by man and, for the most part, if after the fact. I truly believe in Jesus Christ, a triune God, who presented and sacrificed himself for the sins of humanity. Still, the Old Testament and Revelations are beautifully inspired mythphors.
Our knowledege of this universe is in its infancy. In all probability, our Earth is a mere speck in this universe which is a part of an infinate number of other universes. The fact is: we are not geocentric and we should set aside our egocentricity.
We are not alone and we are not the first in God's design.
"The problem with using the Bible as the basis for running a society is that it would always be somebody's interpretation of the Bible"
Society's already experienced being under the control of the Bible and its believers. It was called The Dark Ages. If you want a country controlled by religion, move to Iran.
Having only just become aware of your debate, a couple thoughts that may still be relevant:
I've questioned JW's idea of a great awakening. It seems to me that the evidence on humanity’s state of consciousness here and around the world is ambiguous, in line with Tolle's views.
"The problem with using the Bible as the basis for running a society is that it would always be somebody's interpretation of the Bible..."
This speaks directly to what I see as a key general point in biblical discussion: everyone's view of scripture is interpretive. No one knows "the gospel truth" about the gospels, so to speak. The New Testament itself is a faith document written by members of the early Christian church decades after Jesus’ death and represents a theologically interpretive view of Jesus, not historiography.
I WOULD LIKE 2 KNOW!!! WHO"" U,,,,R,,,,2,,TELL ME OR ANYBODY,IN THIS WOLD,}}}}{{{{WHAT FAITH,, WE NEED TO BELIEVE IN, THERE IS ONLY 1 FAITH EVER 1 NEED 2KNOW, 1GOD AND 1JUSES THE SON OF GOD,, NOW ABOUT THE DEBATES REMEMBER WHEN THAT 1-KID DID NOT LIKE SAYING THE SCHOOL NATIONAL-AN-THOM ,,SOME TOLD HIM TO GO SITE IN THE HALL HE,&HIS FATHER DID NOT LIKE THAT,, SO GUSS WHO!!! WINS!!!,,, {{{THE BOY}}}} WHO WOUND NOT SAY I PLAUGE-ALEGENT 2 THE FLAG WELL, SORRY ABOUT THE SPEELING UP THERE,BUT U SEE WHAT I,M TRYING IT TOLK 1 TO TAKE IT ALL OUT,,,,,,,,,,,BOOM GONE GOD IS NOT IN R SCHOOL,S ANY MORE,,,U DON,T SEE JESUS PIC. IN THE HALS OF ANY OTHER PLACE TOO,THE PEOPLE, THAT COME 2 THE U S A ,,,,,,,,,,,,, SHOULD LIVE WITH R-GOD,,,,,,,,,,, THERE DON;T BELIEVE IN THE HIGH OF ALL HIGH, GOD,,,,, Y SHOULD WE STOP' ARE GOOD HEAVENIE BELIEVE,S BECASE OF THEM I SAY NO,,,,,,,,,,,,, EVER 1 THEM PEOPLE IN LANSING WHO TOKE THE WORD OF GOD OUT OF R MOTH,S AND STATS,,, THAY CAME TO US TO BE FREE,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, AND NOW YOU SHOULD LOOK BACK ON ALL THAT THAY STOLED FROM US AND FROM GOD AND HIS SON JESUS ARE LORD,, GIVE US BACK R GOD&HIS SON JESUS,THE OUTER TOWNER,S SHOULD LIVE WITH R BELIEVE,S JUST AS WE LET THEM WITH THERE,, GIVE IT ALL BACK TO THE LORD&HIS FATHER ,,,,,, FROM NO NAME,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.
This is just a quick comment regarding the post entitled "Deadly Furby." There are great differences between people doing very unbiblical and unChristlike things in the name of religion (as in the Dark Ages) and people treating others in a manner that reflects the teachings of Jesus Christ. We ought to pay careful attention to the contrast. You are correct in expressing grave concerns about powerful people doing things in the name of Christ or Christianity that in no way reflect Him. Not-so-careful examination of the Dark Ages that you mention easily finds a contrast between the way those leaders treated people and the actions that Jesus did and called His followers to do. Please do not judge the person of Jesus by the actions of people who are in no way like Him. There are examples of people who identify themselves as "Christians" who actually do reflect the nature and teaching of Jesus. If you are to be offended by Christianity, be sure that it is really Christianity that you are judging and not a misused title by people who in no way reflect the word to which they so flippantly identify themselves.
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