The problem with using the Bible as the basis for running a society is that it would always be somebody's interpretation of the Bible, and a worst case scenario is that it might be your interpretation, Mr. Klinghoffer.
I too have read and studied the Bible all of my life, and I just can't recognize the Bible in so much of what you have said in our "dialogue." I really work at finding common ground with people across the political spectrum on moral issues that transcend ideology and politics. But we have been unable to find much common ground in this dialogue. I still find many of the things you have said absolutely astonishing.
I still can't get over your contention that most of what the Bible says about the poor don't apply to America because our poor people are so well off here. I replied that most Christian clergy and Jewish rabbis that I know would find that statement incredulous, but got no direct reply from you. In your latest post you say, in an equally unbelievable way, that wealth is the most consistent test of whether a society is righteous in God's eyes. I read the Hebrew prophets in a totally different way--that the best test of a nation's righteousness is how it treats the poorest and most vulnerable. That is always how God judges a society. Read Isaiah, Amos, and Micah.
Then you say that war is just a "tool of statecraft." Really? The Hebrew Scriptures warn against militarism--"not trusting in horses and chariots"--and Jesus calls we Christians to be peacemakers and love our enemies. In fact, you note in your book Christians who believe that:
Quakers, Amish, and Mennonites, among others, can point to the teachings not only of Jesus himself but of ancient and medieval sages - Tertullian, Origen, Francis of Assisi, Menno Simons, down to a twentieth-century figure like Thomas Merton.
It's interesting that "Jesus himself" and the earliest church fathers were all opposed to war. So, what happened? You say, quite correctly, "With the conversion of the Emperor Constantine (324 C.E.), all that changed." Indeed, it did. And you then cite such esteemed theologians as Oliver Cromwell and Gen. George S. Patton. When you say in your latest post that war is merely the normal tool of statecraft, does that mean all wars? Every time a nation decides to go to war as an expression of its statecraft is justifiable? What about when one nation with Christians and Jews decides to go to war with another nation with Christians and Jews? Are both nations justified? Is there any religious critique or discrimination possible here? Let me guess, you support all the wars America has fought. I could never get you to tell me what you think about the war in Iraq.
I could go on, issue after issue, but I don't think that would be productive. We just disagree, profoundly, on what biblical imperatives suggest about society and politics. I am very glad that America has a separation of church and state and that people who would prefer a more theocratic vision of society (as I interpret you to prefer) don't get to run things they way they would like. We both have to convince our fellow citizens that what we believe is best for the common good. That's a good thing and I welcome that debate. Thanks for this one.
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Having only just become aware of your debate, a couple thoughts that may still be relevant:
I've questioned JW's idea of a great awakening. It seems to me that the evidence on humanity’s state of consciousness here and around the world is ambiguous, in line with Tolle's views.
"The problem with using the Bible as the basis for running a society is that it would always be somebody's interpretation of the Bible..."
This speaks directly to what I see as a key general point in biblical discussion: everyone's view of scripture is interpretive. No one knows "the gospel truth" about the gospels, so to speak. The New Testament itself is a faith document written by members of the early Christian church decades after Jesus’ death and represents a theologically interpretive view of Jesus, not historiography.
I WOULD LIKE 2 KNOW!!! WHO"" U,,,,R,,,,2,,TELL ME OR ANYBODY,IN THIS WOLD,}}}}{{{{WHAT FAITH,, WE NEED TO BELIEVE IN, THERE IS ONLY 1 FAITH EVER 1 NEED 2KNOW, 1GOD AND 1JUSES THE SON OF GOD,, NOW ABOUT THE DEBATES REMEMBER WHEN THAT 1-KID DID NOT LIKE SAYING THE SCHOOL NATIONAL-AN-THOM ,,SOME TOLD HIM TO GO SITE IN THE HALL HE,&HIS FATHER DID NOT LIKE THAT,, SO GUSS WHO!!! WINS!!!,,, {{{THE BOY}}}} WHO WOUND NOT SAY I PLAUGE-ALEGENT 2 THE FLAG WELL, SORRY ABOUT THE SPEELING UP THERE,BUT U SEE WHAT I,M TRYING IT TOLK 1 TO TAKE IT ALL OUT,,,,,,,,,,,BOOM GONE GOD IS NOT IN R SCHOOL,S ANY MORE,,,U DON,T SEE JESUS PIC. IN THE HALS OF ANY OTHER PLACE TOO,THE PEOPLE, THAT COME 2 THE U S A ,,,,,,,,,,,,, SHOULD LIVE WITH R-GOD,,,,,,,,,,, THERE DON;T BELIEVE IN THE HIGH OF ALL HIGH, GOD,,,,, Y SHOULD WE STOP' ARE GOOD HEAVENIE BELIEVE,S BECASE OF THEM I SAY NO,,,,,,,,,,,,, EVER 1 THEM PEOPLE IN LANSING WHO TOKE THE WORD OF GOD OUT OF R MOTH,S AND STATS,,, THAY CAME TO US TO BE FREE,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, AND NOW YOU SHOULD LOOK BACK ON ALL THAT THAY STOLED FROM US AND FROM GOD AND HIS SON JESUS ARE LORD,, GIVE US BACK R GOD&HIS SON JESUS,THE OUTER TOWNER,S SHOULD LIVE WITH R BELIEVE,S JUST AS WE LET THEM WITH THERE,, GIVE IT ALL BACK TO THE LORD&HIS FATHER ,,,,,, FROM NO NAME,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.
This is just a quick comment regarding the post entitled "Deadly Furby." There are great differences between people doing very unbiblical and unChristlike things in the name of religion (as in the Dark Ages) and people treating others in a manner that reflects the teachings of Jesus Christ. We ought to pay careful attention to the contrast. You are correct in expressing grave concerns about powerful people doing things in the name of Christ or Christianity that in no way reflect Him. Not-so-careful examination of the Dark Ages that you mention easily finds a contrast between the way those leaders treated people and the actions that Jesus did and called His followers to do. Please do not judge the person of Jesus by the actions of people who are in no way like Him. There are examples of people who identify themselves as "Christians" who actually do reflect the nature and teaching of Jesus. If you are to be offended by Christianity, be sure that it is really Christianity that you are judging and not a misused title by people who in no way reflect the word to which they so flippantly identify themselves.
Interesting comments. Thank you everyone.
One bottom line for me is what is the difference between Christianity and any barbarian tribe? Modern education, and the scientific method most of all, provides a distinguishing characteristic to maintain a basis for non-violent society and civilization. In John 6, it is written that Jesus said that, God will teach, and those who listen and learn, will arrive in Jesus.
Jim Wallis responds to Klinghoffer on the point about war and Contstantine with an acknowledgement. I think the argument in this case is that modern civilization has developed primarily through modern education, not war. Christians have benefited most from Greek philosophers and scientists, not their wars. Thanks to commercial technology, a university system, and government functioning with a democratic constitution, the US entered WWII.
Militarism of Cold War "Containment policy" substituted military extremism for Christian imperatives of love and truth. John 4, God wants to be worshiped in spirit and truth, and Matthew 23, kindness, justice, and faithfulness, along with the more famous formulations.
Corporate and free market ideologues advocate economic ideas that favor their abuse of power. Both militarists and economic perpetrators disregard Christ's predominant teachings, and have no reason to change because of this imbalance of power. The rest of us are in a better position to read the signs, and interpret the messages. In spite of the perpetrators' power, messages from the likes of non-profits like Greenpeace, Oxfam, Human Rights Watch, and Friends of the Earth, and agencies like the IPCC, UNEP, and the World Bank, give us information about the real world beyond advertisements and propaganda.
The US lost VietNam, and has spent hundreds of billions in Iraq, killed and maimed tens and hundreds of thousands there, before the Wall St. crash cost trillions more. The perpetrators' version is Swiss cheese, so to speak, and full of its inconsistencies. Nevertheless, economic power holds important cards and maintains their infrastructure to continue their depredations. The rest of us have alternative choices. Jesus and other ethical teachers in the Church-based system of modern education give us the clear direction of peaceful, just, sustainable social and environmental, and strong co-existence.
Interesting thread. I think Rob's point about distinguishing Christianity and Christians by doctrines and in reference to the principles of Christ is important.
This is particularly so because Jesus did say many things which are subject to interpretation. Significantly, their material impact over time has actually lead to modern civilization characterized by the availability of democratic constitutional principles and modern education. Recognizing the fundamental role of these thoughts and behaviors I have found to be critical in distinguishing the living role of Christ's principles and in conceiving entities such as his living body and the Holy Spirit.
For example, the parable of the talents, about the need for investing cash, creates the basis for the doctrines of modern capitalism. Clearly, however, modern education gives us the basis to weigh the balance of his teachings and recognize the preponderance of compassionate values, and the vision of education. John 6, "God will teach, who will listen and learn, arrives in me/Jesus."
This brings me to my response to the idea that Constantine used war. Klinghoffer seems to use this historical reality to justify righteous war. If I understand Wallis correctly, he implies wryly that the fact is correct, but that he disagrees with the implications.
More explicitly, Christianity had arrived at Constantine's mother, as I recall, all without war. Constantine's vision occurred as he was engaging in the tumult of Roman government to battle his former ally Maxentius. Upon victory and installment as emperor, Constantine promoted a vision of tolerance, but essentially continuing as a pagan until his deathbed.
Contrasting war with three interrelated achievements of Christianity, modern education, cooperative businesses, and psychotherapy, we can contrast the behavior of the rich investors in cases like the S & L crisis, Enron, and the recent Subprime Mortgage Derivatives crisis and see that their capitalist visions are not grounded in a compassionate vision like the Good Samaritan or the healing of neighbors through love. Modern education, cooperative business, and psychotherapy are all examples of behaviors that underlie all effective military organization in a constitutional democracy built on Christ's teachings of love.
Until hawks learn to turn their vision as perhaps Charles Colson the ex-Watergate turned minister might be seen, the atrocious results such as the loss in Vietnam, the hundreds of billions in expenses, corporate irreponsibility, all on top of the loss of life need to be cited. Doves can remain grounded in the ultimate economic expressions that can be created, and nurtured to levels of sufficient power to sway the national tone. Germany and Japan were both humbled after WWII. What will it take to humble militarist hawks? Activist doves can learn the answer, I think.
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