Do Christians believe in 'salvation' or not?

apparently there are 1200 Christian organizations in North America and some 30,000 in the rest of the worldI'm sure if there are that many organizations within the Christian faith there are bound to be differences in their beliefs even though they subscribe to "Christianity"Joel Olsen is a preacher from the US and has written a popular book stating that God wants us to be happy and prosper (sound familiar??) which others in various Christian circles have denounced (probably those Catholics)check out www.religioustolerance.org a very interesting site with lots of info

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WHO CARES
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Let them believe whatever they believe in.
It shouldn't make any any difference to you and me AS LONG they don't hurt me and others with their belief.

The most important thing to understand here, is for people to take care of each other here on earth even if what they believe in is hog wash.

Say, just for argument sake, if people believed in Hell/Heaven and did take care of their people, then they read your book and now they didn't believe in Hell/Heaven and stopped caring about others and start behaving with arrogance.. Is this better? I think not, the bottom line is right here right now, you can believe all you want with after life stuff.

You dear Neale have no proof that Hell/Heaven doesn't exist as much proof they have that it exists.. let s concentrate on what is important...

Mounir

Hi Neale,

I guess it depends if you are actually following the Christian belief or just calling yourself a Christian and believing what makes more sense to you. I'd wonder why we need to consider ourselves a Christian at all if we don't follow the Bible and Christs' word. Why can't we just admit we are following our inner spirit where god dwells, and trying to live a good, decent and kindly life here on earth. Human beings distort everything to get the outcome they hope for. The Vatican admitted to holding back chapters that were intended as part of the Bible. They didn't want it to go into the Bible because it might change people's opinions. (???)

I was raised to believe I was Christian by people who never went to church and were unkind to others. Needless to say, I didn't get a good grasp on Christianity, even though I studied and wanted it.

People can tell you what to believe, but you WILL believe what resonates with your spirit. BTW, Jesus' church was outside by the river, and all inclusive.

I had a very wonderful teacher who used to say, "Religion is like a finger pointing to the beauty of the moon". The problem is, most of us get so caught up on the finger ITSELF that we are unable to see beyond it... to where it is directing us. Too often, all religion becomes about is, well... religion itself!

Also, it isn't ONLY a question of non-Christians going to hell, but often the TYPE of Christian. Christians themselves often can't decide or agree on who is a "true" follower of Christ and who is following a "false" doctrine propagated by the devil. Further, every denomination can be broken down into even MORE churches who can't seem to agree with one another, claiming that those who follow the "wrong" path are subject to damnation.

For instance, is a Christian Scientist a "Christian" according to a Southern Baptist? Is a Southern Baptist a "Christian" according to a Roman Catholic? According to who or what qualifications? And if those qualifications are NOT met will hell inevitably result? So bringing up the subject of Christianity and what they believe becomes quite confusing.

I decided years ago not to define myself according to the limitations of any religion but rather to embrace my Life ITSELF as my Path. Spirituality (not "religion") is a deeply personal EXPERIENCE that can not be measured by any doctrine established by the fearful minds of men who lived long ago. Spirituality IS Simplicity and travels well beyond the moon.

Chet

Neale,

I am a Christian. I think a lot of people have a misunderstanding of just what that word means. The word "Christian" simply means "Christ-follower" or "Christ-like". As to what Christians believe, Peter said it best in Acts 2: "Men of Israel, be assured of this. God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

On the topic of "being saved", that is not a Christian or church construct, it is the words of Christ Himself, "For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him might not perish but have everlasting life."

As far as eternal life or not, Jesus says this in John 5:24, ""I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." And John says this in 1 John 5:12, "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

Neale, I know that many churches have watered down their doctrine to appeal to more people. It is not a secret that membership in the mainline denominations (Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopal, Presbyterian, and Catholic) has been in decline for decades. Many churches have started "contemporary" services to appeal to younger parishoners, and sadly, some have left long-held doctrines like the existence of hell and condemnation so that their preaching is more "likable" to the laypeoples' ears. Those churches and their leaders will have to answer for that some day. I myself was raised in a Presbyterian church where the head pastor did not believe in hell, so you never heard a sermon on sin or condemnation or the real need for a savior. If everybody goes to heaven, who cares about Jesus or what He did, right?

The true church worldwide, though, continues to stand on the authority of God's Word alone and strives to reflect Christ in all she does and says. Churches are not places where perfect people or people who are holier-than-thou gather, Neale; church really is a rehab house, where people who are hurting and lonely and depressed and dealing with addictions and lust and pride and greed go to receive therapy. We believe that therapy is found in trusting in God's Son Jesus and His redemptive work on the cross, and His continuing work in our lives through the Holy Spirit. I heard someone put it like this; "Here is how I see the Christian life: we were born sinners into a sin-fallen world. When we accept Christ as our Savior, we are given power to sin less and less, pointing us to the day when we are received into heaven and we sin no more." Christians aren't perfect, and we struggle with our sinful desires and the pressure to conform to the world's culture just like everyone else. We do have resources, through God's power, to deal with stress and grief and death and sin that the world does not. This is why many Christians can wade through traumatic times without giving in to the despair that so often envelopes and consumes people without faith. Christians are not immune from trouble; Jesus Himself said, "In this world you will have trouble, but take heart! I have overcome the world."

To answer your question, Neale, yes, Christians believe in salvation. And as Peter states in Acts 4:12, "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

I know people have lots of questions about people who never heard of Jesus and all of that. And they bristle at the idea of people telling them, "accept Jesus or go to hell." I myself do not say that to anyone, for it is not my place to tell anyone they are or are not going to hell. There are only 2 people in the universe that really know what is in your heart, and those people are God and you. So your eternal destiny is something between you and God. All that I can tell you is that God has made provisions for those who never had a chance to hear of Jesus, because He is just and merciful. His wrath falls on those who HAVE heard of Jesus but reject Him. Jesus Himself tells us this in Luke 12: 4-9, "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

8"I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. 9But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."

Those are the words of Jesus. You can choose to accept them or not, believe them or not, and follow them or not. But just because you discount them or do not believe them does not make them any less true. Those are God's words, not mine, so what you do with them is between you and God. The key is that you have the choice, and God will honor your choice, whatever it is.

God bless you all,

Chief1989

Well...after reading all the comments I bet Neale is just as confused if not more so.

My thoughts are this....it does not matter! I too am surprised that so many who would call themselves Christians do not beleive in hell. I also never realized this was a mainstream beleif. I myself, do not beleive in hell but I don't annouce that to just anyone...well except now to everyone reading this...lol. However, knowing that their are more people who also dont beleive in hell makes me smile a little!

Don't beleive everything you read...even if its in a spiritual text. If you want real answers...go within...then see if the answer you receive resonates with you! You never know the answer may surprise you and send you down a learning path that you never expected!!

Blessings!

Well, since everyone gets so worked up when the ideas of Punishment, Hell, and Condemnation come up, I thought I'd contribute a couple of articles that may help explain why these things are a necessary part of God's plan.

Is Christian morality based on fear?

Some people characterize Christian morality as primitive because they view it as relying on threats of punishment in hell and promises of reward in heaven. It is true that the Bible teaches there is an afterlife with rewards and punishments for earthly conduct.1 But it also teaches that morality is based on love, not fear. God instructed the Israelites to love foreigners because they were once foreigners themselves and ought to empathize with them.2 (Contrary to popular belief, the command to love one's neighbor as oneself is not unique to the New Testament, but first appears in the Old Testament in Leviticus 19:18.)
That the basis of morality is love, not fear, is most clearly and fully expressed in the book of 1 John:

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. (1 Jn 4:7-11)
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. (1 Jn 4:16b-18, emphasis added)

This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. (1 Jn 5:2-4a)

Punishment

If Christians are to be moral because of their love of God and not out of fear, then why are curses for disobedience and prophecies of punishment found so frequently in the OT, and why does Jesus mention hell so often in the NT? There are several reasons:

1. God is just: he is morally obligated to punish those who do wrong and don't repent, regardless of whether fear of punishment motivates people or not.

2. God uses punishment to teach moral lessons. God doesn't want to punish anyone, and would much rather that we willingly did what is right,3 but if necessary he will use adversity to discipline people.4 Ideally, the chatisement causes the person to examine themselves, realize their wrongs and willingly change their ways. That is, for those who have an underlying motivation to do the right thing, God's punishment/discipline can help them improve morally without causing fear to be their primary motivation.

To understand how this can be the case, consider the following situation: Joe habitually cuts off other people in conversation without realizing he's offending them. One day someone tells Joe that he's being rude. Joe is upset about it, but then makes an effort to not cut other people off. One can imagine that if Joe has an underlying desire to be good, his changing his ways is motivated by that desire more than the desire to avoid the "punishment" of someone telling him off.

3. Although fear of punishment isn't the ideal motivation for not doing wrong, it does serve as a last-resort motivator for those who aren't motivated by other things. If someone doesn't love God and doesn't care about "good for goodness' sake," is it not better for them to at least do the right thing to avoid punishment rather than to do wrong?

Rewards

Is there anything wrong with a Christian being motivated by the rewards in heaven that Jesus mentioned? At first blush, the idea of doing good in order to receive a reward sounds materialistic, probably because most of the time when we talk about this concept we're talking about an actual material reward. But consider the volunteers who say they volunteer because it makes them feel good to help others. They're getting a reward, only it's emotional rather than material. Yet very few people would say it's wrong for them to be motivated by their satisfaction in helping others or argue that the only truly altruistic act is one that is unpleasant and from which the doer receives no satisfaction, not even the satisfaction of having done the right thing. Therefore having a motivation for being altruistic is not necessarily wrong and does not necessarily mean the act is not truly altruistic.

There are non-altruistic motivations, though. The Bible condemns false altruism, e.g. giving to others because one expects the money to be returned or hopes to look generous.5 How does this sort of motivation differ from that of a Christian who is motivated by receiving a reward in heaven or praise from God?

It seems to me the real difference is between having a focus on earthly (e.g. material) things and having a focus on godly/moral things. Someone who gives in order to be repaid, praised or otherwise gain materially or socially is concerned with their own well-being on Earth, as opposed to having a truly altruistic concern for others. It could be argued that someone who gives solely to receive praise and/or reward from God is also concerned with their own well-being (albeit in the afterlife) rather than others' well-being. However, if someone is genuinely seeking to please God -- if they are seeking God's praise as an indication that they have pleased him, rather than seeking a higher social status in heaven -- they should know that God is pleased when they have the right attitudes (in this case, love for others) and then act on them.6 In other words, ideally the person seeking praise or reward from God is really seeking to please God by caring for the disadvantaged and having a genuine concern for others.

Possibly, Jesus' teaching about rewards in heaven was meant as a first step to get his followers to focus on spiritual rather than material things. Someone with a material focus would likely respond to the logic in Luke 12:33: "Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys."

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Footnotes
1. Lk 12:33-34, 1 Cor 3:12-15. See also Degrees of punishment in hell. (Back to article)
2. Ex 23:9, Dt 24:21-22 (Back to article)
3. Ezek 18:23, 32 (Back to article)
4. Heb 12:5-11, Pr 3:11-12 (Back to article)
5. Mt 6:1-4, Lk 14:12-14 (Back to article)
6. Mt 6:1-4, Hosea 6:6, James 1:27, 2:14-17 (Back to article)

This is the first, in regards to fear and love...Turk182

Finally, guys, one more, on why it seems that the Christian God "requires" us to love him. I am not trying to monopolize the conversation, I'm just trying to give you some background on concepts that have been blogged about on here.

How can God require us to love him?

Some people view the commandment to love God as a commandment to change feelings over which they have no control. However, the assumption that love is an involuntary feeling is wrong on two counts: love is also an attitude and act, and one can influence one's feelings by controlling one's thoughts and actions.
Since this commandment comes from the Bible, it's relevant to look at how the Bible describes love:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. (1 Cor 13:4-7)
Being patient and kind, boasting, being rude, seeking to please oneself, keeping a record of wrongs, protecting others, and persevering are all actions. We choose whether to speak gently or rudely, whether to keep track of people's faults and mistakes or their qualities and successes. Envy, pride, irritability, delighting in evil, rejoicing in truth, trusting, and hoping are attitudes over which we have control. We choose whether or not to trust others and whether we want good or bad things to happen to them.
Other passages in the Bible emphasize that love is an action. The parable of the good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37) describes love as an act of kindness and generosity, and Jesus says of love, "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). To love others, one must love them through actions - showing kindness to them, helping them when they need it - and through one's attitude - being patient with them, looking for their qualities instead of focusing on their faults, thinking the best of them and thinking of what they need instead of what we want or need. And as it turns out, changing our actions and our attitudes towards a person has an impact on how we feel about them as well.

But how are we to love God? Mark 12:30 reads, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." That is, we are to love God emotionally and mentally/intellectually, with all that we are and to the greatest extent that we can. Loving God means believing in him, trusting him, and obeying him (1 John 5:3). Yet God has enabled us to love him emotionally as well, by first loving us.

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins...We love because he first loved us. (1 John 4:7-10, 19)

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That's the end of my posts for today; I look forward to all of your comments...Turk182

Here is what I believe (and this is partly because of your first book).
There is no Hell. There is only forgiveness if one chooses to ask for and accept it. There may be a pergatory (sp?) for those who do not ask for forgiveness. Not quite sure of this one. I struggle with this concept as much as I do with many others.
I believe that if one believes that we are all God's children, then we should also understand that which is most dear to all of us. At least those of us that either are, or understand the concept of being parents.
There is nothing my children could do to make me want to punish them by making them burn in a lake of fire for all eternity. There is nothing they could do that I would not forgive them for. I may not agree with what they do, I may not like it, it may make me mad as Hell at them for doing it. But at the end of the day, they are my kids and I love them and want the best for them. I certainly would not want to have them burn in hell for all of time. Just cannot comprehend that at all.
We here in America believe in Christianity mainly because that is what we know. That is what we have been taught and what we have learned (for the most part). In other parts of the world, different people believe in different things..........mainly because that is what they have been taught, and what they have learned. The only reason that Christianity is in other parts of the world is because we (Americans), in our infinate wisdom, decided long ago that EVERYONE was intitled to our opinion and by golly we were going to give it to them and make sure they though the same way because, let's face it.....otherwise, they would all be heathens.
What gives us the right to be so high and mighty that we should dictate to the entire world what they will or will not believe?
What makes us right or them wrong? for that matter, what makes them right and us wrong? It is all a matter of perspective.
The bottom line here is this: God is love. The basis of any and all religions, yes, even Wicken, is good will, love, forgiveness, and peace. As long as one follows this, they will go to heaven. If not? Well that's where I begin to struggle with the pergatory idea and what happens to one in that case.
As for me, I have my own personal relationship with the Big Guy and I know (most of the time) what I need to do in most situations. If I screw up. I pay for it somehow. Sometimes we create our own Hell.

If there is no damnation, then there is no need for salvation.

Well, now. Exactly. You're beginning to see the light.

Yes, of course I know I'm quoting you out of context.

But this line is exactly the point of why non-Christians do not believe as you do.

We don't believe in original sin and most certainly don't believe any one man (or woman...) can "die for our sins" and give us salvation. What we do is completely on our own shoulders.

Choices, choices, choices. The evil inclination versus the good inclination. We all have a bit of the Divine spark within us and it's our choices that define us.

To "sin" in Hebrew is to "miss the mark".
We are not, however, born sinful.
What a depressing concept.

I knew a Catholic woman once, beautiful person, whose newborn baby tragically died at three days old, as the baby was born with a heart defect. She felt compelled to get the baby baptized to "save" it from original sin.

I cannot begin to and don't want to imagine the heartache not only of losing a child, but of living with the additional guilt thinking the poor baby was somehow damned at birth and that only the action of an act such as baptism could "save" the child's soul!

Even the Constitution sets up a presumption on innocence.

Dear Me. Walsh:

I thought that when I said that people should not put all Christians in one basket I had illustrated the idea that Christians have their differences. Obviously I did not make myself clear, for which I apologize. I do not claim to reflect the views of all Christians, just as the views of some Christians do not reflect mine. I could explain why I believe what I do, but I think it is irrelevant. Christians are a motley crew, Mr. Walsh: some believe salvation is achieved by works, some believed it’s achieved by faith alone; some believe that it is a combination of both, and some believe that salvation include the above, but it must be seen through the image of the loving God that Jesus taught. Since there are many things you don’t know about Christianity, let me illustrate a bit more. Some Christians read the Bible and do not go to church; some go to church and never read the Bible; some do both. Some think that you serve God by feeding hungry souls, some by feeding hungry bodies and some by a combination of the two. Some believe in material poverty; some believe in material abundance. Some Christians do not see doctors; some become doctors. Some Christians do not dance; some worship dancing. Some follow the doctrines of established churches; some create their own ministries. Some consider themselves conservative, some moderates and some progressive. And that is only to mention the USA. Christianity takes its distinctive shape in different countries, such as Mexico, where 90% of the population see themselves as Christians, or Iran, where a small cell of Christians has managed to survive for centuries. This variety is at the same time our weakness and our strength and many denominations are working to find ways in which we can focus in what brings us together and not what takes us apart.

That said, I think your comments on Mr. Jim T… and mine own opinions were less than graceful, to say the least. I though the idea was to exchange ideas, not to be used as instrument to help you ruffle feathers. I do find it odd though, that someone whose blog seems to deal in one way or another with Christianity (or that’s the impression I have, although I admit I have not been reading your blog for long) admits so much ignorance in the subject. I suggest you learn more about it or drop it altogether. And while I appreciate that you do not believe in Hell, I found your question about my possibility of ending there most insensitive. I have no read your book, so I have no idea what topics did you discuss with God. Basic courtesy, it seems, was not one of them.
Karem I. Sanchez S.-Karemiss

Oh, Neale.

NEALE WROTE IN RESPONSE TO "karemiss":

"Wow. Is this true? Can this be accurate? Are you really telling me that "Not all Christians believe that non-Christians are going straight to hell just because of their belief"?????

Wow. I never knew that."

C'mon, Neale, you KNEW that. Maybe you never knew what kind of honest answers you might get out of people who consider themselves Christians. Maybe because people don't talk about such things much in public but rather keep those secret beliefs private, until they can anonymously post them in a blog conversation.

And if they are reading this blog, then I would say they are seeking new answers of some sort, above and beyond what they can find in the "Scriptures" and what they have allowed themselves to believe, so far, about Christianity or faith or God.

NEALE ALSO WROTE: "Could some Christian ministers or teachers help us here? Does anyone have the scoop on this? Is it true or is it not true that all souls that have not accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior go to hell? And...if a person does not believe this, can that person call himself a Christian?

Just wondering here, because we're getting some conflicting understandings...and I thought that the basic Christian doctrine was pretty clear cut on this issue."

Okay, Neale, once again, I certainly get what you are doing. But some here probably don't, so maybe this will help.

Karem or Karemiss wrote: "I do find it odd though, that someone whose blog seems to deal in one way or another with Christianity (or that’s the impression I have, although I admit I have not been reading your blog for long) admits so much ignorance in the subject. I suggest you learn more about it or drop it altogether. And while I appreciate that you do not believe in Hell, I found your question about my possibility of ending there most insensitive. I have no read your book, so I have no idea what topics did you discuss with God. Basic courtesy, it seems, was not one of them. Karem I. Sanchez S.-Karemiss"

If Karem had read any of your books, then he or she (sorry, I am not sure from the name) might understand more about you and your form of teaching, which involves some BOLD-FACED QUESTIONING of Stuff We Are Supposed to Believe or We May Go to Hell . . . and Stuff We Dare Not Question Because IT SAYS SO In The Bible and THAT Should Make It TRUE. . . or STRIKE ME DEAD. Ya know?

So, as I sit here in the comfort of my home, blessed with prosperity unknown most of the world over (hey, I have a computer! and broadband! and electricity!), I send as much Love as I can humanly muster to all of you who are reading and commenting here.

This Love I send isn't Christian, necessarily, yet it's the same Love that the Christ (Jesus) would have sent to you if you questioned Him over any of this. The Love that is described in the Holy Bible--1 Corinthians 13 (New International Version) as:

"4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

I also remember a song we used to sing in church when I was a Catholic school student.

The chorus consisted of:

"God is Love
and he who abides in Love
Abides in God
and God in him."

SO--IF GOD IS LOVE . . . and Love is as the Bible describes it, as I copied and pasted from the website

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13

THEN HOW ON EARTH CAN I BELIEVE ALL THAT OTHER STUFF THAT CONTRADICTS THAT VERSION OF LOVE??????

LOVE -- "it keeps no record of wrongs" . . . "always protects" and "rejoices with the truth" . . . .

So, then, LOVE WOULD WANT ME TO QUESTION EVERYTHING to get to the TRUTH. Love is patient, right?

LOVE (GOD) wouldn't be angry with me for questioning the stuff the priests and nuns taught me, or the text those ancient humans decided would be the final version of the published Holy Bible (included books depending on if I were Catholic or Protestant)!

After all, history tells us some of those men who made the decisions about what we are supposed to READ AND BELIEVE today weren't actually very patient OR kind, and were actually QUITE RUDE!! They angered so easily that they burned people at the stake or crushed them to death or tortured and killed them in more ways than I dare think about without feeling violently ill.

And I wonder what they were afraid of that made them want to kill the "heretic"? Maybe Hell? Maybe somebody told THEM that THEY better believe, better not question, or they would burn in Hell?

Oh, I thank God(Love)for FREEDOM of speech and religion in this great country I live in.

I thank Love(God) that I was born here and am blessed with the freedom to think for myself.

I can't imagine what it is like to be in those places where the thinking about one's particular God subjects the thinking human to violence or even the death penalty.

And it all comes from FEAR.

Fear that if you accept the fact that when it comes to beliefs or religions or faith, Mine Is Not the Only Way, but maybe Mine is Just Another Way, then your Safety Net of Eternal Certainty will come tumbling down around you? And then what?

Then what? (Maybe Peace on Earth and Good Will Toward Men?)

From the pulpit I have heard Savationists described as formula driven, i.e. accecpt Jesus as your Savior and have everlasting life, all cut and dried. Some people love the simplicity of such a belief. There's nothing to sort out, just do this and receive your reward. Others find such simplistic answers as little more than a membership drive ploy. Each of us finds a belief that fits our level of thought processing. For those who want to think things through to the heart of the matter, catchall ideas and lazy logos won't cut it.

Some pick the heart to live by. Others the brain. I believe it takes the heart and the brain working together to give us balance when we study scripture and listen to sermons. We live by another common formula, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. Likewise if the talk and ideas sound ungodly, they're probably ungodly and will keep us from God's vision of who we are and what He is.

Once again the childish philosophy of "you don't love me if you tell me I have to eat my vegetables." raises it's head. Make sure you stamp your foot when you say it. That always helps.

WOW...how many great responses! How many great interpretations...

Jesus is us...we do not have to believe in him, but in ourselfs, becouse he is not speaking about himself, but about where love (we) is going and what will love (we) have to expirience in order to be saved, if we are lost in this world - he is talking about his life like our life, he lived the life of our souls, that needed to be saved, he gave us hope, that there is love, life after death. He is the living proove for it! That love IS! That love cannot die. That we don't have to vorry. We must listen to the message, that he gave us with his death! Message of pure firm faith in unconditional love!

And that is, that we don't have to give in order to receive something from God. First we have to receive in order to give! And when we give, what we are unconditionaly, we become that in others and we live that world!

We don't tank gas from car to car, but from gas station to car! We don't breath in water from mouth to mouth but from snorkle to the mouth! The first thing is just first aid, but not our "gas station"! That's what we must know!

He is speaking in us - we are the Son of man, we are salvatiors, but we don't know it. We must love ourselfs like we love him, we must accept, that we are him! That's the one and only key to our salvation (if we need it!).

Jesus was not just Christian! His words are our life, we are experiencing it that way. All is love! And world will be saved, becouse it already is!

Chau,
Teja

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."

'Nuff said.

I am a clergyman and I do not believe, nor do I preach, that you must believe in Jesus in order to be saved.

In Matthew 25, Jesus vividly describes the qualities of someone who will be asmitted into heaven and he never lists any doctrinal requirements...only genuinely selfless love and compassion.

Those who take the approach that belief in Christ is necessary usually cite the "None come to the Father, but by me" passage from John's Gospel." But that simply indicates that Jesus will stand as an advocate for us...which is what happens in the Natthew 25 parable, when he admits souls who did not even know they were helping him when they performed their acts of lovingkindness.

Your perception of Christianity has been decidedly too narrow and far too affected by fundamantalist types who want to make sure that only like-minded people are admitted into eternal life.

Grace, by its very nature, is vastly more open and accepting.

I am not a Christian because I think it's the only way to gain God's love, but because I find Christ to be the best (but not only) example of that love. Indeed, I believe him to be the very incarnation of that divine grace.

Teja, true. Just because someone has "heard" or "been exposed to" the Gospel, doesn't mean that they, as of yet, actually "know" the Gospel. Thus, the Gospel that such a person rejects is not the true Gospel.

To the Clergyman with comments above: I would be curious to know what kind of church you pastor?

I am puzzled by this blog. I honestly can't tell whether mr. walsch is being sarcastic or is genuinely ignorant of this core doctrinal difference between progressive christianity and conservative, or orthodox christianity. One thing that the bible makes very clear is that God is the final judge of a person's eternal status (Romans 12:19). Other scriptures emphasize that God's perspective is higher than our perspective. What appears to us to be a contradiction may, in fact, be a deep paradox.

Unfortunately the doctrine of eternal damnation is not, as Jim T would have it, a minority opinion. Any survey of church attendance at liberal mainline vs. fundamentalist churches will show that the latter have the numbers advantage. But Jesus is unconcerned. "On that day, many will say to me Lord, Lord ..." (Matt 25).

I am of the opinion (supported, i would contend, by scholarship) that Jesus did not intend to set up a new religious "system." His audience was his fellow Jews, but his message was always going to transcend that religious and cultural barrier. Jesus' message is for all mankind. Those who horde it are guilty of the same legalistic sins that Jesus decried in the pharisees. James - the "works" book - states in chapter 2 that "mercy triumphs over judgement." You could call that God's campaign slogan. Following the way of Jesus is certainly a passageway to eternal life - starting NOW ... but that doesn't make "jesus" the secret password to get into heaven.

I am sorely sorry that so many have missed out on my Lord's liberating message of love because of the petty human tendency to exclude that has creeped into the church. But I trust that God has things well in hand.

To Victor/Teja/Tax/Idolhunter,

There is an area of Christian thought that all who have died before us and die now until Christ returns "sleep" in death. Then, when Christ comes to establish His millenial reign, there will be a physical resurrection of the "just and unjust". Of course those who have died in infancy will be awakened, grow to adulthood, and have opportunity to enjoy God's blessings. Having had real experience with both good and evil, each individual then will be able to fully decide for himself whether or not he wishes to choose the good and live forever, or choose evil and again be sentenced to death (this time as the result of his own individual judgment). Christ will then be King supreme in His kingdom, and He will be Judge supreme.

During the present nighttime of sin and death, all die--believers and unbelievers, the innocent and the guilty, the righteous and the unrighteous (Rom. 5:12,18). But during the reign of Christ, only those who wilfully disobey the laws of God will be destroyed (Ezek. 18:4, Rev. 20:15). All others will continue to live and to mature toward perfection. If these continue faithful, they will enter into the everlasting future ages of happiness and life. "Songs and everlasting joy [shall be] upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away."--Isa. 35:10.

I will have to do more study to see if I agree with their doctrinal beliefs, but it certainly answers the questions of why a loving God would let people die who never got the chance to hear of Jesus, and what if you were raised in a different culture, and all of the other questions we have been discussing. The idea is that we struggle through this life the best we can, using whatever has been revealed to us. Then when those who did not accept Christ in this life are raised again, they receive all of the information that they need to make a truly informed choice of whether to accept or reject Him. There will be no unfairness or ambiguity, because Jesus Himself will be on the earth for all to see and hear.

Just another line of thought, one that I don't totally agree with yet but for which I need to study more.

God bless you all,

Chief1989

Neale,
My hat is off to you on this one. You raised a question very much worth discussion and did it in such a way that produced very specific results from the audience. Your tongue in cheek phrasing and return questions really are the real deal.

The God you speak of is but a manifestation of your beliefs (A belief I share). The Way home for the folks that do not share your belief will get them there as well, as you know. In many situations I have found people and in this case some not all Christians, believe what has been handed down for generations because it eliminates the need for them to do the heavy emotional/spiritual lifting of establishing their own belief mechanisms from direct experience. The fear they hold that they are not worthy of direct communication is to me the cause of the belief.

The story of the Christ as told in the Bible was yet another attempt by God to send his message that we are OK. That we will go home, that there is nothing to fear. The politics of the day took the message and distorted it to become very filled with holier than though attitude. Let's be clear, any one that supposes the words written in the bible have not been edited, changed, and modified to fit with the correctness of the day is not going to believe that God lives in them as an equal.

I am not making a judgement call. I am not saying your way is right and theirs wrong. I am saying that if those that are followers of the Christain faith be it catholic, methodist, baptist, mormon, or any other maturation of the faith, and they try on a day to day minute by minute basis to BE Love what does it matter. I know plenty of christians that provide for others before themselves, plenty that build houses for the homeless or man soup kitchens for the hungry. Are these not the right things to do?

You have said on numerous occastions that action is the quickest method of creation and that our actions speak volumes of our intent to the universe. If we DO things in support of others, if we reach out to those less fortunate, if we try to enter our day to day relations with a purpose of love, and acceptance, can we not make a difference? If we started a world wide day of charity would not all the charity be given in the same light, regardless of personal motivation?

Keep up the good work my friend, each day some one else recognizes the truth of their existence, and begins realizing they can live in heaven on earth.

Namaste,

Bob

I think its more than believing one thing or another. Its a heart thing. One's heart must be in the right place...I didnt say one's mind. Only when a person has been emptied of trying to become a good person, is he or she then qualified to become a heart-change recipient. And too many church people are not changed..It does not happen instantly. Christ himself told his followers that you SHALL no the truth, and it will set you free. I think he meant that the lie will cease having control over you once you begin to let go of your way of doing things..We all need to stop being religious and acting good because we are not really saved yet like the false preachers are telling us..But we do have what is called "grace".. And in grace, we have help to lead us to heaven, which is escaping hell.

Blessings Martin Luther! I hope Neale will read your comment. Simple wisdom based on experience and reason.
I can't understand people who call themselves Christians who ignore that Jesus did identify heaven and hell with descriptions His listeners could somewhat relate to. Yet these "Christians" behave as if He didn't mean what He said! Most of them are Paulists anyway. I think disciples should identify their masters accurately.
The Jewish portrayal of God as a parental figure is difficult for a non-parent or parent of a single child to understand. A parent can love all the children they have and desire their children's love in return. But if they didn't want that love to be a product of their children's free will, they would have created mannequins instead of real people.
Yet some parents have had to choose when & how to punish disobedient children who use their free will to be destructive of those they should love. In this way I can understand spirits with immature free will being allowed to return to the Father without judgement. Acts of mature-enough free will are a different matter. Some children become too disruptive to live in the same house with the parents & siblings. Children often don't understand the lessons they are learning at the time, especially if it is painful in some way. Many still find the faith to persevere based on the mutual love between themselves and the parent without knowing exactly how it will end.
I also think it more prudent define love as Jesus showed us rather than as Paul told us. Words are cheap by comparison.

Hi again!

Dharmashaiva:

"However, the Gospel that someone is taught, may be a corruption of the real Gospel, thus leading that person to reject the Gospel that is taught -- because it conflicts with the Gospel they already know."

That's really a good part!!! We could have been misunderstood the Gospel, becouse we didn't include love in our and other's teachings!

Chief, good analyse! But if i believed that my "stepfather" is Jesus, than I am right, not? I believe that his life should be our soul's life..everything, what he has been through, our souls are going through in order to be saved. I know that becouse I have been through that!

In Gospel Jesus is also saying: If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. – John 15:20. Peter says: You are messiah, SON OF A LIVING GOD! Understand?

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."

I have a different explanation for this, becouse it contains "As the heavens are higher than the earth"...so by my interpretation that means, do not get attach to anything but God.

Thanks for both replies to both of you! Chief, the last you wrote is very interesting! I wish you a good study, with full of love!

Love and blessings,
Teja

Hi again!

Dharmashaiva:

"However, the Gospel that someone is taught, may be a corruption of the real Gospel, thus leading that person to reject the Gospel that is taught -- because it conflicts with the Gospel they already know."

That's really a good part!!! We could have been misunderstood the Gospel, becouse we didn't include love in our and other's teachings!

Chief, good analyse! But if i believed that my "stepfather" is Jesus, than I am right, not? I believe that his life should be our soul's life..everything, what he has been through, our souls are going through in order to be saved. I know that becouse I have been through that!

In Gospel Jesus is also saying: If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. – John 15:20.

Also Peter says: You are messiah, SON OF A LIVING GOD! And so on...

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."

I have a different explanation for this, becouse it contains "As the heavens are higher than the earth"...so by my interpretation that means, do not get attach to anything but God.

I don't believe, that we are separated from God, that creation is separated from God, we just think so! Thoughts are separating us from Him and we are allowing it. We were trying so hard to separate Jesus from God, but we couldn't. In the end, it is not possible. And we all know it.

Well, maybee we just didn't understand each other.

Thanks for both replies to both of you! Chief, the last you wrote is very interesting! I wish you a good study, with full of love! Tell me when you are finish!

Love and blessings,
Teja

Neale, could you possibly moderate these comments? Everyone has a right to their beliefs and opinions but it seems for every one comment on these issues that subscribe to Conversations with God and a free spirituality, there are 3 or more "Christians" trying to tell people their way is the only way and to believe as they believe or go to hell.

To Don L:

"That person was indeed doing as they were taught, but clumsily (sp?)
Its a fact that the bible teaches there will be an eternal punishment for the damned. That message is very upsetting to those who contemplate it and do not want to accept the truth. The deadly truth.

Do you know what one symptom accompanies every heart attack? Arm pain? Chest pain? Shortness of breath? Maybe its a headache? No. Denial. Thats right. Denial. People dont want to face the overwhelming possiblity so they deny it. Hell, just like a heart attack, is going to be there whether we believe it or not. The reaction you saw was typical. But some do respond to that type of message and at the very least those people can go and find out from the bible if its the truth.

The truth is that if you reject Christ you reject life.

"The Deadly Truth"? Come on, please. The truth as I saw it was that people were peacefully and loving enjoying a beautiful day and someone was pushing, very rudely, their beliefs on others. Telling people they would go to hell if they didn't believe what she believed. If that's Christianity you can keep it.

my friend the answear is very clearly (according the Bible!) NO !!! and trust me I speak for all true followers of Jesus Christ. There NO other Way but Jesus and ANYBODY who does not confess that He is the Lord of Lords and only God will perish in hell :-( that's we still have EACH day of grace where many can come to salvation, that's why we share our faith with all of you, not because we think we are right, but because we WANT you to be SAVED :-)

God bless

You Go, mimma. You rock!!

Don,

Your response is a pretty good example of what I mean. Its presumptuous of Christians (or Christ-is-the-only-way folks), to try to tell Jews what their own forefathers, their own Tanach, their own oral traditions had to say. In NONE of these were Jesus mentioned. It would be like a foreigner coming to a family and trying to tell them that their longstanding family traditions meant something completely different than what they intimately knew it to be. After all, their relatives had experienced these traditions that had sprung from their own ancestors. They had personal understanding of all the things that an outsider may not understand by simply reading a text about it. If you for example, were to study under a Rabbi instead of a Christian preacher you would have a very different understanding of every aspect of what the Tanach says. You would also have a much deeper understanding of your own Jesus who was a Jew by birth who celebrated the feasts and festivals and fasts. You would likely understand that many of the things you've been taught have no foundation in the religion that Christianity is supposed to have branched off from.

I