Does Jesus love us? Does God? Does God love us even if we are not Christians? Does God love us enough to let us into heaven even if we are not Christians? Is heaven meant only for the few and not for the many? What about the billions of human beings who have lived a good and wonderful life, and who simply have been brought up in a different culture, or grown into different ideas, and do not belong to a certain religion? Will they be tortured mercilessly in hell for eternity for not coming to God along the right path? Or for not coming to God at all?
What, truly, does God want?
(For more on this particular slant see What God Wants, Atria Books, available through Amazon.com and other booksellers.)
I seem to have opened up a fascinating, exciting, and stimulating conversation here this past weekend. Over 100 people contributed to the Comment Section following that blog, participating in a vigorous discussion of what God wants. (If you want to catch up with all this, please dial back and pick up the blog entry that I posted here before the holiday weekend.)
I'm going to keep that discussion going in this space -- and I invite my follow bloggers on Beliefnet to join in it, as well as any of you who may have not already posted here. Because this is an important topic. This is more than a simple theological exploration. This is a discussion that, some say, could impact the eternal life experience of your immortal soul. At the very least it could change the world as we know it.
How?
I observe that when people on this planet believe that there is only One Path to God they create, they produce, and they live a theology of separation. Then, that which was always meant to unite us (religion) does, in fact, divide us...producing exactly the opposite of what it was intended to produce.
Separation Theology inevitably produces a Separation Cosmology in the minds of many people. That is, a cosmological way of looking at all of Life that holds that everything is separate from everything else.
A Separation Cosmology produces a Separation Sociology. That is, a way of socializing the human species that separates every person from every other person by declaring their interests to be separate.
And a Separation Sociology produces a Separation Pathology. That is, pathological behaviors of self-destruction, engaged in individually and collectively and evidenced everywhere on our planet.
So, the discussion is not insignificant. It is not unimportant.
Let me ask, then. Is it true that God will condemn us to everlasting damnation if we do not come to Him through Christ? Is it even true that God is a 'Him'? What if God is a woman? Or not a 'person' at all?
We'll look at all of those questions in the days ahead. Today I would like to take a look at some of the Comments that have been posted here in response to my having opened this dialogue...
First, to Kathy, who said... "Thank you for not being afraid to constantly allow dialogue regarding your beliefs."
You are welcome, Kathy. Thank you, and thank all the rest of you who have posted here. You have proven to me that this IS an important topic, or you would not have taken the time to post.
Now, a look at some of those Comments (with a few of my reactions to them). If we do not declare Jesus Christ to be our Savior, will Jesus and God send us to hell?
From Kristen...Will I go to hell for it? No. When I die I'm going to sit on God's lap and ask him how he invented colours and rave about all the great music that was worth coming to earth for. He's my Papa. What loving father would send his child to hell?
(I love this analogy, Kristen. But wouldn't a father who loved us punish us when we do wrong?)
From Mary...You hit the nail on the head: F E A R. I grew up in a strick Catholic household and we knew alot of fear! I went through 12 years of Catholic school and they instilled in us the FEAR OF GOD!!!!! I feel if you are at peace with what you believe, then it's right for you. If you believe because you are afraid not to, than that just doesn't make sense. God is all loving. I don't doubt that anymore.
(Yes, Mary, but God punishes us with everlasting torture in hell precisely because He loves us, is that not so? Isn't "justice", applied, the highest form of love? Do you think it pleases God to have us tortured in hell forever and ever? No! It does not. But love for all of humanity requires God to send us to everlasting torture if we do not come to Him by a certain and very specific path -- otherwise, where is the justice for those who do, and did? Is there something I do not understand here? Somebody help me.)
From Mounir... I wonder why you and many other new age writers don't write and quote Islam. Islam by translation means "Surrender to the divine" and it is the only religion that has 5 meditations per day keeping you always with a very beautiful state of mind. When one meditates once per day even for an hour or more, between two meditations many things arises and change in the self. When the meditation happens in the course of the whole day, it keeps one connected to this Divine spirit, the oneness in all things...
(Yes, there is great beauty and great practicality in the five Calls to Prayer in the daily life of a Muslim. This sacred practice does exactly that for many people. It has the potential of keeping the devout in a very beautiful state of mind, a very real feeling of connection with the Divine. And you are right, we so-called New Agers don't talk nearly enough about Islam. Point well taken.)
From cassie d... NO, I do not need to be 'saved' through Jesus to "get" to heaven. But I do need to see the divine in myself so that I might save myself from the hell I could create right here, right now.
(Are you creating that hell by not allowing yourself to be saved by Jesus?)
From Paul... If you have read the Bible with an open heart, you would know that God wants all people to come to Him. If you reject Jesus, you reject God. But I am not the judge, God is. My job is to share the Good New with as many as will accept it.
Your goodness on earth has no bearing on your salvation. I firmly believe that there is only one path to heaven but I also believe that the one path has many lanes (churches) but the key is that Christ is the only fuel that will take you down that road. I also believe that God will give those who live in righteousness an opening, even at the moment of death, so that none could be denied the chance of Salvation.
(If I have this right, Mormons believe that God will give those who live in righteousness an opening even AFTER the moment of death, so that none will be denied the chance of Salvation. Perhaps some Mormons could join me here and help clarify this for me. Is it not a teaching of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that even after death we are given one more, one last, chance to embrace Christ as our Lord and Savior...and that if we still do not, we are sent to join the Sons of Perdition in a place forever separated from God?
While we are at it, do members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believe in hell? Is there a place where non-believers are sent to be tortured forever? Just wondering. This entire website is called "BELIEFnet", so I am wondering what people believe.)
Please join in the discussion here. And you might even post Comments on some of the other blogs here at Beliefnet, inviting people who are there to join the explorations here. We do too much sitting in our own pews, it seems to me. We need to go over to the other fellow's place, to the other lady's space, to see what they are thinking, and to talk with them, no?
Add to Del.icio.us
Add to Technorati
Add to Digg
Add to Newsvine
Subscribe
Victor,
You are way too hung up on the punishment thing. What offends you so much that you can't give God what is due Him?
Put yourself in His place for a moment. Now, you have to imagine that you are perfect in every aspect of your being, and above reproach. You spend the time and energy to make the heavens and the earth, and then you decide to create a race of sentient beings to share in and enjoy your love, power, and glory. Now, those sentient beings decide that they know better than you how they should act, and they decide that you aren't good enough for them. So they invent all kinds of crazy ideas about the nature of you and the universe you created. They ignore you, profane you, slander you, ignore you, and flout the boundaries of decent behavior you have set forth. Oh, once in a while they come around and give you your just due, but that doesn't last for long. Soon again they are listening to the voices of other people and ignore yours. You let them go for a while, then, after you get tired of what a mess they have made of life on earth, you give them the Law. This is how you need to live to reflect my character and have the most joyful, satisfying experience you can here on this earth. They obey the Law for a while, but quite soon they are grumbling and cutting corners and then openly disobeying it. You wanted them to carry this Law to all nations so they would have a greater understanding and appreciation of you as there God and creator, but instead they abandon your laws and follow laws of the people around them, laws that aren't so demanding and allow them to be free to express themselves and engage in all kinds of licentiousness, idolatry, debauchery, and wrong living, all meant to make themselves happy. So you say, well, this is not working, so I will send my Son down to show them how to live. Surely they will accept the Son of the King! Well, you send your Son, but the intellectual elite are jealous of him and conspire to kill him. Even his closest friends desert him when he is arrested on false charges. He is whipped through a kangaroo court and sentenced to die. They kill him with an incredibly painful, extremely humiliating manner of execution.
How would you feel towards these things you have created, when they time and again thumbed their noses at you and told you to take a hike, we want a "god" who lets us do what we want, doesn't make us change the way we're living, and lets us feel good about all of the evil
Give God credit where credit is due. If He is the Creator of all, King of the Universe, then doesn't He have the right and indeed the responsibility to direct how that universe is to be ordered? Isn't it His sovereign right as Creator to say, "I created this, so I will dictate how it is to function." Wouldn't that same God who said, the speed of light is constant, gravity is the same here and in distant galaxies, E=MC2 will prevail throughout the fabric of the universe, these special laws of thermodynamics will hold true in the depths of space, would not this same God have universal laws to govern His creation here on earth?
Victor, you can't question God on why He created us and the universe why He did. Read the final 4 chapters of the book of Job, where God asserts His transcendent majesty over all creation. He tells Job, "Who is this who darkens my counsel with words without knowledge. Brace yourself like a man; I will question you and you will answer me. Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone-while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?
Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb,
when I made the clouds its garment and wrapped it in thick darkness,
when I fixed limits for it and set its doors and bars in place, when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt'?
Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place, that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it?
The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
The wicked are denied their light, and their upraised arm is broken.
Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep?
Have the gates of death been shown to you? Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death?
Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth? Tell me, if you know all this.
What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!
Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail, which I reserve for times of trouble, for days of war and battle?
What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed, or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain, and a path for the thunderstorm, to water a land where no man lives, a desert with no one in it, to satisfy a desolate wasteland and make it sprout with grass?
Does the rain have a father? Who fathers the drops of dew? From whose womb comes the ice? Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens when the waters become hard as stone, when the surface of the deep is frozen?
Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion? Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs?
Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up God's dominion over the earth? Can you raise your voice to the clouds and cover yourself with a flood of water?
Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you 'Here we are'?
Who endowed the heart with wisdom or gave understanding to the mind?
Who has the wisdom to count the clouds? Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens when the dust becomes hard and the clods of earth stick together?
Do you hunt the prey for the lioness and satisfy the hunger of the lions when they crouch in their dens or lie in wait in a thicket?
Who provides food for the raven when its young cry out to God and wander about for lack of food?
__________________________________
Victor, well, I think you get the point. God is so transcendent over us that we cannot even wrap our brains around His majesty and power. Do you have problems with God's anger? Then look to the verses above, and try to answer His questions yourself. Are you that wise? Are you that knowledgable? Have you lived that many years that you are confident in your own understanding? Job was beginning to think he was, and God set the record straight. God is God, and we are not. His ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts.
Your rejection of Him because He gets angry when people reject Him is creation is not logical; it is more the temper tantrum of a small child when he does not get his way. I have 2 kids, and they get mad when things they want are not the things I want. The problem they have? Oftentimes they are not seeing the big picture. They think the things they run after are the best, but sometimes in the long run those things would not be profitable but would lead to emotional pain and suffering. Isn't that why we give our kid's advice? To spare them humiliation or loss by not repeating the mistakes we made as kids? Because in the long run we know our way will be better for them?
You seethe because the notion that you will burn forever (I think if you really did a study on the New Testament in the original Greek, you would probably come to the conclusion that the only beings that will be tormented forever and ever are Satan and his demon followers; souls of the unrepentant wicked will be destroyed. This follows from the fact that there are 3 different Greek words for hell and death; one is the grave, one is Hades, which is the waiting place of souls going to judgment, and one is eternal destruction. So no, I do not believe that those who are condemned will writhe in torment for all eternity; they will cease to exist.) if you don't accept God's gift of eternal life. That is like being mad because you were diagnosed with AIDS, given a short time to live, and then refusing the cure because you felt it was too expensive. There should be other cures! And they shouldn't cost this much! That is what you are saying to God, Victor. His Son paid the price for your sins and offered Himself on your behalf. You stood condemned, not by God but by your own sins, rebellion, and foolishness. Jesus stamped your condemnation papers "PAID IN FULL". But for some reason, Victor, you are saying that price is too high for you to pay, or shouldn't other people have paid it too, other people who won't demand that you change the way you want to live your life.
The bottom line, Victor, is that you either want to deny that you have a fatal disease in the first place (which I think deep down you know in your heart-of-hearts is not really the case), or you want the cure, but on your own terms, not God's. You think He should just give you the cure and send you on your way, not expecting anything in return from you. That's not the way redemption and salvation work. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.
I hope you meditate on these things, Victor, I really do. Because they are not trivial matters, but matters of life and death, both physically and spiritually. God has opened the way for you, you just have to accept it. Jesus is having a wedding banquet of the Lamb for all of the redeemed in heaven, and He wants you to be there, Victor. But you have to RSVP.
God bless you today!
Chief1989
A God that commands -or commanded?- even KILL YOUR SON, if he is too rebel, is a God of Love?
Would you -a sinful and human father, not a 'god'- do that?
Would you ask that? Command that?
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
Victor, you missed the point of my post. Again, look at the questions you are posting. You are projecting human thoughts and experiences onto God. That is what Job and his friends were doing, and God finally said, "Enough! Let me tell you how it really is."
What I would ask or command means nothing. I am not God. God is not me, or us. God is not His creation. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." That tells me that God IS separate from His creation. When you MAKE a pan of brownies, are you one with the brownies? When you CREATE a work of art, are you that work and is it you? No, you are separate from them, and they are separate from you.
Would a God of love expect certain things of us? Yes, because that is what love does. I have children; I love them and would give my life up for them. But I expect them to behave, to have morals and values and stand firm on them, to try their best at whatever they choose to do, to treat others with kindness and respect, and always be ready to give someone who needs it a helping hand. I do not let them watch whatever they want, listen to whatever they want, go wherever they want, or stay out as late as they want. I have certain expectations for the kinds of friends they keep and the boyfriends/girlfriends they have. I set boundaries for them to protect them as much as I can, both from the outside world and from their own inner desires. I praise them when they do praiseworthy things, I do not criticize their person but only their actions, and I discipline them when they need it. I offer advice when they ask, and hold them up when they fall. I laugh with them, cry with them, pray with them, and do everything I can to let them know I love them and am ready and available whenever they need me. Do I do this perfectly, as God does? Of course not. I am human, and I fail sometimes. Do they obey me perfectly, like Marine recruits to their drill sergeant? Again, of course not, they spend a lot of time and energy testing the boundaries, trying to play their mother off of me, and seeing if I am a man of my word and if I will follow through on what I have said.
That is our relationship, and it mirrors the one I have with God, except that He loves Me more passionately, more intensely, and more perfectly than I could ever love Him or anyone else. It is because of His great love for us that He set down His commandments, which were not intended to cramp our style, ruin our fun, or hinder us from enjoying this life, but are instead intended to guide us through life while enjoying it to the full. His laws and precepts are there to protect us from all of the dangers and pitfalls of this life, the ones we can see and those that are unseen, but that God in His perfect knowledge sees and wants us to avoid.
Victor, you are so hung up on fear, violence, and killing that you can't see the forest for the trees. This world is a dangerous place, and it is because of Satan's activities and mankind's foolishness that it is. It is not God's fault that people took gifts He meant for good and used them for their own wicked purposes. Again, one reason that I say the Bible is still relevant for us today is that it speaks to the human condition, and that our hearts are still ruled by pride, greed, lust, avarice, envy, jealousy, hate, and every kind of immorality. There is even more need today of a Savior than ever before, and that Savior is Jesus Christ.
Chief1989
Idolhunter, here is an article that may help you understand some things better. Victor, you might want to read this, too:
Is Jesus the Only Way to salvation?
It may seem unfair, unjust, or even arrogant for Christians to say that Jesus is the only way that a person can have a relationship with God. These misconceptions, however, can be cleared up by coming to a clear understanding of the issue. After we do this, we will look at some objections to this claim.
Christians did not invent the idea that a person can only be saved by Jesus. Christians say that Jesus is the only way to God because Jesus Himself said He was the only way to God. It is Jesus' claim, not our invention. Consider these verses where Christ eliminates alternative ways to God: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through me" (John 14:6). "For unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).
Christ's apostles later affirmed His claim: "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved, " Peter says in Acts 4:12. Paul writes "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5). It is not arrogant for Christians to make such an exclusive claim since we are only relaying what Jesus taught and being faithful to what Jesus told us to do (Matt. 28:19). If we come to understand why Jesus is the only way, we will see that it is not unfair for Him to make such claims.
Why is Jesus the only way?
Every person is separated from God by their sin and in need of forgiveness. Because God is just as well as loving, we cannot cross this gulf and have a relationship with Him (eternal life) unless the penalty for our sin is paid--eternal death. If God did not judge our sin, He would no longer be just.
Living a good, moral life cannot save a person because good works do not pay the penalty for sin. Just as we can only pay a $50 speeding ticket with $50 (not by baking cookies for the judge or even paying $49), only death can pay the death penalty for sin. Being religious cannot save a person either, because religion does not pay the death penalty.
Fortunately, because of His love for us, God sent Jesus to die in our place to pay the death penalty we deserve for our sin. Jesus chose to do this because He loves us, and was the only one able to do this because He is fully God (He had to be infinite to pay the penalty for more than one person) and He is fully man (He had to be a sinless human to pay the penalty for a sinful human). Jesus is not only sinless, but He is 100% God and 100% man.
On the cross, God judged Jesus for our sin so that we wouldn't have to be. That's why He is the only way to God--only Jesus was willing and able to die for us to pay our death penalty, thus providing forgiveness for our sins. No one other religious leader has done this; no one else could have done this.
So now there are two options. Either a person can pay this penalty themselves--and so not be saved--or Jesus can pay it for them--and be saved. In both ways, God is just because the penalty is paid. The decision is ours to make, and all we need to do is accept God's offer of forgiveness in Jesus. Either we pay the penalty, or we trust Jesus to save us and He pays the penalty.
To summarize, we can receive forgiveness and eternal life only through Jesus because only He has taken away our sin and bridged the gulf between us and God. It took His death to pay the penalty for our sin. If there had been any other way, Jesus would not have died (Gal 2:21). Considering the sacrifice Jesus made, we should not think it is unfair that there is only one way, but we should be glad that there is any way at all.
Thank you, Jesus, for spilling your precious blood for me, and for everyone in the history of the world. May the readers of this blog open their eyes and their hearts to the truth of your words and your sacrifice, and accept it as their own. Amen.
Robert
Victor - It's wonderful to ask the questions. God is good, and God is just. He is our Heavenly Father. Thank you for the question..It caused me to pray and seek an answer. You are helping me to grow in God's Word.
I hold fast to the King James Version, and KJV Scriptures speak of everlasting fire when describing hell, not of everlasting punishment for non-believers. It does refer to everlasting punishment for the "devil, the beast and the false prophet" in Rev. 20:10 where it says they are to be tormented for ever and ever). This was the only reference I could find in the King James Version of punishment that would last forever, and other scripture say that the "everlasting fire" was prepared for the devil and his angels. It makes no mention of anything everlasting being prepared for anyone else. Rev. 21:8 calls the firely lake of burning sulfur "the second death" which would indicate the end of life - The first death is the death of our earthly bodies....the second death is only experienced by those who do not accept Christ. Believers don't have to fear a second death because they receive eternal life, but those who don't accept Christ do...They will experience an end of life...the second death. So, how can they experience death if they receive eternal punishment....There is no eternal punishment for anyone other than the devil, the beast and the false prophet). We are all judged for every good and bad thing we have done (2 Cor. 5:10) Judgment for the believer determines rewards..not all are equal in Heaven. Judgment for the non-believer determines the penalty...the term length in Hell - not all are equal in Hell either, and they suffer at different levels absent from God (Jesus went to Hell for us...On the cross, He said "I thirst" and asked His Father why he had deserted Him. He was in a place without God's presence and maybe his thirst was an indication that it was hot. Scriptures speak of sinners reaping destruction (which to me means no longer in existence), they speak of death (an end of life known as the second death..the final death). Again, this is the second death spoken of in the Bible for those who do not accept Christ. Mark 3:29 talks about the unforgiveable sin (denying entrance to the Holy Spirit into your heart), it says that person is "in danger of eternal damnation." Does it mean eternal death, or eternal punishment? Since they are in danger of eternal condemnation, I would think since the final eternal destiny is death for a non-believer (the second death), it refers to the end, not the punishment, or it would say eternal punishment. Regardless, Hell is real, and God doesn't send anyone there....He gave us free will, and that's what it is all about...Freedom allows us the choice - Love is offered...It is either accepted or refused....It cannot be forced. It is our choice to seek the truth, find it, and make the choice.
We live by faith, and yet God said prove all things (1 Thes. 5:21), and He didn't exclude the Bible. When we check history, archaeology and prophesy - truly seeking the truth - we find it. We are saved by faith, but we stand on fact because there are so many facts to substantiate our faith. I believe God is just...that everyone gets the opportunity to know Him and to make the choice to accept or reject Him. I don't know how He does this, but I trust Him because He is God!
JB
Post a Comment
By submitting these comments, I agree to the beliefnet.com terms of service, rules of conduct and privacy policy (the "agreements"). I understand and agree that any content I post is licensed to beliefnet.com and may be used by beliefnet.com in accordance with the agreements.