Good for Barack Obama

There's definitely evidence the coming generation of Evangelicals is more open to a Democratic message. Only they have to figure out that message. I'm open, and listening. Only I hear Obama say these great words in an accepting forum, but I don't see him acting for change within the party, or with his votes.

He said these words to Call for Renewal, even as Howard Dean has said very religiously supportive words in similar forums. Put them in neutral territory, however, and the message is mightily blurred.>

I think that most Democrats would say that hearing the words "under God" in the pledge isn't something that is harmful to children, and they don't give it much thought. It's not something that I worry about. I'm a Democrat, and I support the right of students to use religious language to express themselves in school if they so choose. I don't support students having the right to use God as an excuse to harrass other children. Kids who are gay or might be gay have the right to go to school and not be harrassed by the self-righteous.

Newsflash:Many Democrats believe in God. Some don't, and they're still morally upstanding citizens.Democrats just seem to respect the rights of all people to live in a free society and believe that America is a country for all- not just Christians. Democrats seem to be attached to the idea of liberty, helping out Americans rather than judging them, and using diplomacy as a means of settling conflict rather than bombs. It doesn't make us bad people.>

A great post on the speech, from the view of a progressive.

">http://religiousleftonline.typepad.com/religious_left_online/2006/06/the_most_import.html>

I'd say Tim Kaine, the governor of Virginia fits the bill. Ultimately, you may not get everything you want. You can find Republicans who are pro-life and pro-gun, but finding ones who suppor unions, the minimum wage and a balanced budget is almost impossible.>

"Pro-life and pro-gun. Hmmmm. Better stick with a Republican."

Except that Republicans would rather cut taxes for Bill Gates and the Walton family than raise the minimum wage. They'd rather send jobs to Inidia than support union member, they'd rather build bridges to nowhere than balance the budget.>

"Obama is pro-choice, pro-gay and anti-death penalty. The goal of wooing Evangelicals is to find commonalities without losing our values."

Barry, why is being pro-death penalty an "evangelical value"? Even if they don't oppose it, I don't understand why maintaining the death penalty (not that it's currently in any danger of going away) would be a high priority for Christians.>

Despite talk of the culture of life, Evangelicals and Orthodox Catholics are oddly silent on the death penalty. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who described themselves as a social conservative who talks at all about opposition to the death penalty. There's not a Republican politican in the U.S. who is known for being anti-death penalty.>

Hrm. Well, I do think quite often Christians miss the point about what's *appropriate* for public institutions to endorse, pressure or compel in the realm of religion:

"It is doubtful that children reciting the Pledge of Allegiance feel oppressed or brainwashed as a consequence of muttering the phrase `under God.'

I would say, quite the contrary. Even at a young age, I knew that was *wrong,* and did feel oppressed: While I'm not for expunging all religious speech from the public square or the schools, definitely, pressure, seemingly from the United States Government to swear an oath by a particular God is way over the line.

Likewise, having the courts display *commandments* to worship someone else's God is just so far over the line, it's amazing *anyone* thinks that's a good idea.

Having voluntary student prayer groups using school property to meet should not be a threat,"

This is more nuanced, but there's always a question of how much kids really have a choice in what they do, and who's being let into the schools, to say what, and what social effects these have.

Frankly, I see no reason why the potential complications are worth it. It's just evangelicals looking for a free venue and captive audience.

When people refuse to vote against the Republicans, no matter their crimes, incompetence, their selling-out of the future, or oppression of the poor, based on a 'values' agenda, I question what "values" are at play, here.

Relative priorities: Why is the anti-sex, anti-choice, pro-obligatory-public-piety, pro-death penalty, pro-uncontrolled weapons part of the conservative bent so much more important than peace, social justice, the rights of workers, the future of Earth, and the treatment of single mothers and minorities?

It seems to show that what you 'value' is proclaiming your 'virtue' and punishing people you see as 'sinners,' over what's the *actual* business of government.

Conservatives are always saying government is helpless in effecting social change, yet pushing for government to enforce *abstractions,* even at the expense of *real* efforts to reduce things like teen and unwanted pregnancy, poverty, crime, and injustice.

Why not vote for a government that will perform the *business of government* well, instead of pandering to the rich and making you 'feel good' with proclamations of 'morality' and piety?

Is it really worth voting against the interests of the poor, and yourself, in order to 'defend marriage' from some abstract 'degradation' of the instution you fear, if the government ceased to discriminate, for instance?

Republicans will tell you that first promoting certain kinds of religion will make everything else fall into place, but it's just not so.

Maybe, it's time to reexamine what you value *more.* Symbol or substance.>

Obama and the rest of the democratic party are 100% pro-abortion and brave new world genetic engineering. It is the glue that holds the party together. Allowing "under God" in the pledge and allowing a little silent prayer in schools is chump change. If orthodox Christians fall for this because they are so hungry for validation from the elite classes, they are just suckers.

And... this equating of pro-union with Christian values is more than a little troubling. While there is justification for the promotion of workers rights (unions included) in the cases the truly underprivlidged such as farm workers or janitors, it has nothing to do with the bulk of the union movement in the US at the present time which involves public employees who are being feasted with benefits, loose work rules, and retirement packages far above their peers in the private sector and that are backrupting municipal governments now and with unfunded retirement programs that will destroy any programs for the underpriviliged in the future. In my own city, the public employee unions who have total control of city government are signing more than generous contracts while our parks department has been cut by 75% over the last 4 years. This is all in a time of rising revenue to the city.>

I do not support public employee unions, but I do support trade unions. This will probably keep me from considering any democrat for election to state positions. I haven't quite reconciled abortion in my head, but I'm not going to make my vote on a largely academic question. The Republicans aren't serious about doing anything on abortion, and as long as the democrats don't make the problem worse, I'm willing to ignore the rhetoric.>

Again, we suddenly see detail and relative minutiae when it comes to excuses for supporting union-busters... when the big picture the union-busters present is more style than substance.

Frankly, I'd rather see a few workers get 'too much' (Where'd the 'free market' go, all of a sudden?) ...than see anyone subjected to nonsensical injustice due to religious ideology...

Or to see *no* one allowed to really unionize cause someone thought they saw an excess somewhere.

We're supposed to trust you with guns, crippling deficit spending on foreign wars, and a demonstrably-racist death penalty... as well as the huge and real injustice of denying gay marriage....

So you can avoid the horrible, horrible abstractions of appearing to tolerate one kind of 'sin' while the warmongers rob us all blind?


Yay. *Real* conservative. Virtuous, even.

Or, is it that your type cleaves to symbols and fears of 'sin' so reflexively that you actually believe it's more important to be self-righteous than right or fair?>