"Sieg heil" in Arabic

Thank you, Tom.

It's good to know that someone gets it.>

Thanks MNW.

Honor compels, though, that I admit that I just threw you under the bus in another thread, the one about Richard Cohen's column.>

Tom: Look, when Hezbollah starts behaving in accord with international norms by separating their weapons, barracks, etc., from the civilian population, Israel will be more than happy to drop bombs there and avoid all the collateral damage. But since they're not going to do that (as it would mean their instant annihilation), noncombatants are inevitably going to get killed. Which is Hezbollah's plan, of course. Their miscalculation in his has not been to underestimate how much Israel would respond, but to underestimate how tired their enablers in European governments have become of their act.>

Are you sure that every outstretched hand gesture is intended to be a Nazi salute? Isn't that the logical fallacy of "like means related"? Perhaps that is the intention of the young man, but I would not jump to that conclusion. I have seen ignorant commentators claim that charismatic group blessings, with outstretched hands, were Nazi salutes.
If you tour some European cathedrals (or the National Shrine in DC) you will see swastikas, an ancient solar symbol. Or you will see the upside down cross in many churches dedicated to St Peter (who was crucified upside down). Would you, Mr Dreher, begin denouncing the Nazi and Satanist symbols before you?
And please, spare us the inflammatory "Islamofascist" nonsense; you sound like Rush Limbaugh or something, using a term meant only to smear.>

Tony---

I'm curious why you attack Rod over something Beliefnet wrote about. I don't know if you're new to Beliefnet, but it features many different religious views, from multiple faiths and perspectives---because it has a particular article about one thing doesn't mean it necessarily encourages it. If this was childlesscatholics.com then you'd have a point, but Beliefnet encourages different ideas (which is why this blog is usually juxtaposed to what's-his-name's).

God bless!>

Rod: (something about Nazi salutes).

Sadly typical of the right is a tendency to ignore good arguments and target blasts of rage at lesser arguments that are advanced by very very few. (Think, for example, of the celebrity achieved by third-rate academic Ward Churchill, an anti-hero to the right, justly ignored by everyone else). No one on this thread has come to the defense of the "maybe it's not Nazi" viewpoint.

But, Rod is only intellectually capable of engaging weak points and straw men. A shame. I thought he'd really hit upon something with the Crunchy Conservatives meme.

The debate is not over whether Israel should "sit quietly and calmly" and ignore Hezbollah; it's whether WHAT ISRAEL IS ACTUALLY DOING is going to work to improve their security situation.>

What o u g h t Israel actually to be doing? Until terms are suggested that include effective guarantees for the security of Israel, I am not interested in exploring hypotheticals more suited to pseudo-academic discourse in the decadent West.

(I notice that the Europeans, along with the U.S., are enthused about imposing a military force between the Israeli border and the presumably still-extant HA forces in Lebanon--except that nobody seems to be willing put up the troops.)

War is war, and as awful as it and its consequences are, sometimes wars have to be fought--not in the sense that there is some 'intrinsic necessity for War' of course but because human beings often despise peace and the rights of others.>

Daniel, Tom, Michael: Have you all lost your minds? Look at the caption on that picture: "Young members of Hezbollah's Al-Mahdi Scouts pledge their commitment to die for the cause..." They look to be about 8 years old! Trying to minimize (or defend!) this evil is incomprehensible and revolting.>

b-- Of everything on this thread, only Daniel's comment can remotely be taken as minimizing or defending what's in the picture.>

"No one on this thread has come to the defense of the "maybe it's not Nazi" viewpoint." - Tom

"Are you sure that every outstretched hand gesture is intended to be a Nazi salute?" - Daniel

I do believe that thou art in error, good sir Tom.>

*sigh*

rjak134, please be aware that I meant to be referring in my post to the points made in this thread.

It is true that Rod was repsonding to a point that one person had made in the thread; but no one else in this thread had defended it.

Hope this helps.>

Hmm, that describes every European colonizing power, as well as the USA, during the past 200 years. Ever hear of Manifest Destiny?

Basileus, you have no clue of the difference between "colonialist" and "fascist." Study the histories of France, Britain, Germany and Italy if you want to know the differences. Also, you have no clue of the difference between European colonialism and American colonialism. The U.S. gave independence to its colonies far earlier than the British and French gave independence to theirs.>

Although my planet isn't driven by an blind anti-Islamic fervor that refuses to see anything else.

If you were to read some of the verses in the Koran concerning Jews, or to notice the outright refusal of al-Azhar -- the most prestigious seminary in Sunni Islam -- issue fatwas against bin Laden, suicide bombings, imams who stir up hatred and the like, or the same outright refusal of Shia institutions to do the same regarding Iran or Sadr, then you would realize that "anti-Islamic fervor" isn't "blind."

In fact, it's kind of like anti-Nazi fervor.>

Just let us know when you think the Israelis have killed enough Lebanese women and children, okay?

Jaybird, I'm sure Rod will tell you once you let us know when you think Hezbollah (and other Arab terrorists) have murdered and maimed enough Israeli civilians....>

I'm sure Rod will tell you once you let us know when you think Hezbollah (and other Arab terrorists) have murdered and maimed enough Israeli civilians....

Israeli civilians have been killed by terrorists that means Israel is justified in killing civilians too?

Other than their religion what's the difference between Muslim killers and Israeli killers.>

Basileus, you have no clue of the difference between "colonialist" and "fascist." Study the histories of France, Britain, Germany and Italy if you want to know the differences.

Actually Joseph, I have studied them, thank you. Rod was pointing out the extreme nationalistic-end of fascism for his definition, since those were his words originally. When you compare Rod's words with nationalistic expansion that was ideologically-based, as with colonialism, you have little difference, my friend. Thank you for demonstrating my point.

How clueless you are to how recently we, or at least the civilization we represent was what you claim Islam is now. Colonialism was achieved by conquest of the sword, or in this case, down the barrel of a gun. The Africans, Asians, and native Americans didn't 'give' us their land because we asked them nicely. We took it from them, mostly through conquest, sometimes through trickery. Go and study the history of Catholic Spain to see what they did for much of Latin America shortly in the aftermath of the great Aztec and Inca conquests. They did it by the exact same method as Moslems a few centuries before: they read a proclamation from the king of Spain to the opposing Indian nation demanding they surrender and convert to Christianity or face merciless conquest. Some surrendered, most fought. The land-grab or scramble for Africa is the same story, just re-packaged...the 'White Man's Burden'. Colonialism is simply a more sugar-coated word than what you claim fascism is, but the means to that end (regarding the nationalistic arm of facism) is the same: ideologically, not necessarily religiously, driven expansion by (usually) conquest.


Also, you have no clue of the difference between European colonialism and American colonialism. The U.S. gave independence to its colonies far earlier than the British and French gave independence to theirs.

OK...so earlier independence meant it was justified? Whatever, man. Also, US expansion into Mexico was just as unjustified as German expansion into Poland, only the US got away with it--using a bunch of half-truths to sell their reason for doing it--Mainfest Destiny! Go back into your history books and read what it was about--it was an ideology-driven expansion, the same thing you accuse Islam of doing now.

Amazing how some can be so ignorant of their own history.>

MNW writes:

Other than their religion what's the difference between Muslim killers and Israeli killers.

That you are unable to make the distinction ensures -- to the extent that your fellow Americans share your immoral relativism -- that we all will find out the hard way.

Again.

Actually, the Islamofascists are one up on you, MNW. I respect them for at least believing in something, knowing what that is, and then having the stones to act on their beliefs.

You, on the other hand, will be pacing about and pontificating about the unknowability of truth, right or wrong up until the moment the big "reality check" rocks your world. That moment may well announce itself with a hearty "Allahu akbar!"

It's all very simple, really. Something, no matter how regressive and evil, beats nothing every time.

May the God of Abraham, Issac and Moses watch over and protect His people.>

Well, Basileus, if you have studied the histories of France, Britian, Germany and Italy and still see no difference between colonialism and fascism, then you are a dolt. Consider the following:

Canada, Australia, New Zealand...even the United States...were colonized by Britain (or in the cases of Canada and the United States, by France, as well). All four reflect the values of (at least) British governance to one degree or another. Granted, places in the Third World colonized by France, Britain and other European powers do not share those values, being oppressed by pervasive corruption (especially in Africa).

But consider the fate of those countries to the fate of those "colonized" by the 20th century fascists. The Germans massacred Poles and Slavs, both Jewish and non-Jewish. Japanese massacred Koreans and Chinese. Both Germans and Japanese massacred in far greater numbers than did Europe's "colonial" powers.

None of this justifies the excesses of colonialism. But your equating colonialism with fascism holds no water.

Since you say that there's "little difference," does that mean, therefore, that you are apathetic when it comes to Muslim attempts to impose the kind of rule and structures you say you despise?>

Hey, this is kinda interesting. Doesn't affect Israel's right to defend itself, but does show how we get mentally locked into what some French person memorably called "the logic of war."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/24/opinion/24gilbert.html?ex=1154059200&en=5f5587bbd25afbe5&ei=5087%0A

volunteers [who made statements in their roles as leaders of nuclear powers] remembered the causes of their own statements and the consequences of their partner s statements.

What seems like a grossly self-serving pattern of remembering is actually the product of two innocent facts. First, because our senses point outward, we can observe other people s actions but not our own. Second, because mental life is a private affair, we can observe our own thoughts but not the thoughts of others. Together, these facts suggest that our reasons for punching will always be more salient to us than the punches themselves but that the opposite will be true of other people s reasons and other people s punches.>

Diane-- Very sensible remarks.

I'm just hoping that Israel's action will (1) decimate Hezbollah and (2) allow for a cessation of hostilities, and allow Israel to spend, say, double what the Saudis promised today to rebuild Lebanon. This is the triumph of hope over experience, I guess, but what can we do but hope & pray for the best.

You wrote: "The fact that Islamofascists are evil doesn't mean one should act evilly oneself."

Well, that's not going to convince people around here-- moral relativism is the "in" thing on the Right these days. See, for example, Rod's post about the West being too nice to kill enough civilians.>

You, on the other hand, will be pacing about and pontificating about the unknowability of truth, right or wrong up until the moment the big "reality check" rocks your world.

I already know truth...so I've no need to pace about and pontificate about it's unknowability.

Truth is already known...it's just that so many, like you, refuse to recognize it.

War begets war.
Violence begets violence.
Peace only exists when war and violence cease to exist.

That is the truth, whether you recognize it or not.

War and violence will only cease to exist when mankind decides to end it. No God is going to make that happen...it's completely up to us.>

May the God of Abraham, Issac and Moses watch over and protect His people.

Yeah - He's doing a bang-up job at the moment, dontcha think? :/>

But consider the fate of those countries to the fate of those "colonized" by the 20th century fascists. The Germans massacred Poles and Slavs, both Jewish and non-Jewish. Japanese massacred Koreans and Chinese. Both Germans and Japanese massacred in far greater numbers than did Europe's "colonial" powers.

Joseph, your example here shows they are the same! You sure you applied that dolt label correctly? They (the fascists) massacred in far greater numbers simply because there were more to massacre in Europe or East Asia where they operated. The American Indian population was manipulated and massacred at will by the Europeans and later by the USA. What of the native African populations? You treat the colonial experiences like it was done for 'their' own good and they were entirely good things. I doubt all would agree. But history is written by the winners.


Since you say that there's "little difference," does that mean, therefore, that you are apathetic when it comes to Muslim attempts to impose the kind of rule and structures you say you despise?

Nope, never said that now did I? Our host, Rod, likes to point out that evil seems to exist on only one side of the fence. But akin to paraphrase that well-known Bible verse, before you attempt to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye, get the log out of your own.


Basileus, have you ever heard of the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo? In that treaty, Mexico ceded land to the United States in exchange for $15 million in compensation to damage to Mexican property.

Yepper, sure have! It was a steal of a deal on a war that was hardly justified but one the USA wanted so badly to complete its Manifest Destiny designs to go from coast-to-coast, regardless of how it was done.

Ad hominems will only serve to undermine your other arguments sir, displaying an immaturity on your part that I am sure you would rather not have others see.

Anyway, we are getting off topic here. Care to comment on my later post regarding 8 year old Israeli girls writing sarcastic messages on missiles, some of which are certainly destined to kill Lebanese civilians? What kind of monster would allow this behavior, getting young children involved, since they would obviously need an Israeli soldier's permission to approach such weaponry?>

I guess right now I'm tired of living in Gondor, I'd rather move back to the Shire. ;)>

Good grief, the anti-Israeli comments on this blog are ridiculous. I stopped reading Beliefnet a while back, because to assert that Israel has a right to defend itself, or to call an Islamofascist an Islamofascist immediately brings down the spitting, diaper-wetting wrath of the "tolerant" (also anything supportive of the Roman Catholic Church brought a similar response).

The comments are, to a great degree, sniping, a-historical, and morally obtuse. The 8th graders at my school could produce better arguments.

I only came back to Beliefnet because Rod moved over here from NRO online. But seriously, other than the obscenity-driven comments from the blogs of the hard-left, Beliefnet attracts the worst comments of just about any site. It's as if knowing nothing about the subject at hand is a virtue. The second virtue is the ability to misconstrue anything Rod says to allegedly mean the opposite of what any sentient human being knows it to mean.

Here's how it works with this subject:

Hizbullah ignores UN resolution while Israel abides by that resolution. Hizbullah builds up military force for an attack on Israel. Hizbullah drops a THOUSAND bombs on civilian population in Israel. Hizbullah consults with Lebanese "government" over plan to kidnap Israelis. Hizbullah puts its entire miltary/terrorist infrastructure amidst civilian population. Hizbullah increases attacks on civilians and soldiers in Israel.

Israel responds the way ANY sane nation would if faced with a military attack on civilians from a border state.

Moonbats blame Israel. Christian moonbats assert that real Christians should blame Israel.

Soon (if history repeats itself) we will go back to the status quo, where only Jewish civilians are dying (this is called a "cease fire" by the UN). Then the moonbats will be silent, until the next time.

Jeez, what a world.>

Anyway, we are getting off topic here. Care to comment on my later post regarding 8 year old Israeli girls writing sarcastic messages on missiles, some of which are certainly destined to kill Lebanese civilians? What kind of monster would allow this behavior, getting young children involved, since they would obviously need an Israeli soldier's permission to approach such weaponry?

Versus the same age Arab children holding weapons and pledging to die for the cause of killing Israelis and Jews?>

Versus the same age Arab children holding weapons and pledging to die for the cause of killing Israelis and Jews?

No, eastcoastlady. Not versus. Just on its on merit, period. It goes without saying that your example is one easily condemned. But I find it most humorous how the pro-Israel crowd refuse to condemn this.>

Basileus, several points:

First, I apologize for the personal attacks against you. Though I was cranky at the time, they were not called for.

Second, nothing I said justifies any abuses perpetrated by colonial powers against native populations. My entire point is to demonstrate that, because of the nature of the governments involved ("fascist" vs. "colonialist"), some abuses were far more brutal.

Besides, you could find influential people in the United States (Lincoln and Thoreau were among them) who disagreed publicly with the whole pretext of the Mexican-American War. You could also find people opposed to British colonialism in the UK. Where could you find such people in Nazi Germany or Militarist Japan?

Third, you seem to interpret the idea of taking the planks out of our own eyes before we take the splinters out of others' to mean that we should not support Israeli innocents being attacked by genocidal terrorists. If that logic were applied wholesale, it would mean that nobody could support the innocent anywhere. You would have to stop posting altogether! So, frankly, would everyone else on this thread.

More importantly, that logic assumes that, because we're sinful, we should not do whatever we can to help others. Basileus, the world doesn't consist of perfect people. It never will. If we were to wait for "perfect people" to save us, our world would be in far worse shape than it already is.

Fourth, regarding the little girls writing on bombs, read this from Lisa Goldman's blog:

Below is the story behind the photo - from the source.

I phoned Sebastian Scheiner, the Israeli photojournalist who took the photo for Associated Press (AP), explained that the image had given a really terrible impression and asked for the context. He sketched it out quickly and fluidly, but asked me not to quote him. So I spoke with Shelly Paz, a Yedioth Ahronoth reporter who was also at the scene and agreed immediately to go on record. She was quite shocked to learn how badly the photo had been misinterpreted and misrepresented; and she told me the same story Sebastian did, but with more details and nuance.

The little girls shown drawing with felt markers on the tank missiles are residents of Kiryat Shmona, which is right on the border with Lebanon. And when I say "on the border," I'm not kidding; there's little more space between their town and Southern Lebanon than there is between the back gardens of neighbouring houses in a wealthy American suburb.

No, how close is it really?

Well, there's a famous story in Israel, from the time when the Israeli army occupied Southern Lebanon: a group of soldiers stationed inside southern Lebanon used their mobile phones to order pizza from Kiryat Shmona and have it delivered to the fence that separates the two countries.

Anyway.

Kiryat Shmona has been under constant bombardment from South Lebanon since the first day of the conflict. It was a ghost town, explained Shelly. There was not a single person on the streets and all the businesses were closed. The residents who had friends, family or money for alternate housing out of missile range had left, leaving behind the few who had neither the funds nor connections that would allow them to escape the missiles crashing and booming on their town day and night. The noise was terrifying, people were dying outside, the kids were scared out of their minds and they had been told over and over that some man named Nasrallah was responsible for their having to cower underground for days on end.

On the day that photo was taken, the girls had emerged from the underground bomb shelters for the first time in five days. A new army unit had just arrived in the town and was preparing to shell the area across the border. The unit attracted the attention of twelve photojournalists - Israeli and foreign. The girls and their families gathered around to check out the big attraction in the small town - foreigners. They were relieved and probably a little giddy at being outside in the fresh air for the first time in days. They were probably happy to talk to people. And they enjoyed the attention of the photographers.

Apparently one or some of the parents wrote messages in Hebrew and English on the tank shells to Nasrallah. "To Nasrallah with love," they wrote to the man whose name was for them a devilish image on television - the man who mockingly told Israelis, via speeches that were broadcast on Al Manar and Israeli television, that Hezbollah was preparing to launch even more missiles at them. That he was happy they were suffering.

The photograpers gathered around. Twelve of them. Do you know how many that is? It's a lot. And they were all simultaneously leaning in with their long camera lenses, clicking the shutter over and over. The parents handed the markers to the kids and they drew little Israeli flags on the shells. Photographers look for striking images, and what is more striking than pretty, innocent little girls contrasted with the ugliness of war? The camera shutters clicked away, and I guess those kids must have felt like stars, especially since the diversion came after they'd been alternately bored and terrified as they waited out the shelling in their bomb shelters.

Shelly emphasized several times that none of the parents or children had expressed any hatred toward the Lebanese people. No-one expressed any satisfaction at knowing that Lebanese were dying - just as Israelis are dying. Their messages were directed at Nasrallah. None of those people was detached or wise enough to think: "Hang on, tank shell equals death of human beings." They were thinking, tank shell equals stopping the missiles that land on my house. Tank shells will stop that man with the turban from threatening to kill us.

And besides, none of those children had seen images of dead people - either Israeli or Lebanese. Israeli television doesn't broadcast them, nor do the newspapers print them. Even when there were suicide bombings in Israel several times a week for months, none of the Israeli media published gory photos of dead or wounded people. It's a red line in Israel. Do not show dead, bleeding, torn up bodies because the families of the dead will suffer and children will have nightmares. And because it is just in bad taste to use suffering for propaganda purposes.

Those kids had seen news footage of destroyed buildings and infrastructure, but not of the human toll. They had heard over and over that the air force was destroying the buildings that belonged to Hezbollah, the organization responsible for shelling their town and threatening their lives. How many small children would be able to make the connection between tank shells and dead people on their own? How many human beings are able to detach from their own suffering and emotional stress and think about that of the other side? Not many, I suspect.

So, perhaps the parents were not wise when they encouraged their children to doodle on the tank shells. They were letting off a little steam after being cooped up - afraid, angry and isolated - for days. Sometimes people do silly things when they are under emotional stress. Especially when they fail to understand how their childish, empty gesture might be interpreted.

You believe that their parents are teaching them to hate. I think that Hezbollah and the other Arab genocidal maniacs did that already. I wouldn't be surprised if they knew people who had been killed by terrorist attacks. I would rather have these children write their frustrations out on bombs than beat up other children.

Besides, how many children have been maimed and murdered by suicide bombers? What about the Arab children who have been used as propaganda (and actual suicide bombers) to a far greater degree by anti-Israel forces? And where, pray tell, were you when all that was going on?

Fifth, here's this exchange:

JD: Since you say that there's "little difference," does that mean, therefore, that you are apathetic when it comes to Muslim attempts to impose the kind of rule and structures you say you despise?

B: Nope, never said that now did I?...

You don't have to say it openly. The fact that you criticize Israel while refusing to acknowledge the genocidal goals of most of the Arab world (let alone of Hezbollah and its Iranian supporters), the fact that you engage in moral equivalence at every opportunity -- and the fact that you condemn children writing on bombs while ignoring the use of children as suicide bombers -- speaks silent volumes.>

The Times story/picture is very scary.

Hezbollah is truly evil. We are in the early stages of WW III/ the Battle of Ar Mageddon, which is started by demon-possessed "kings" of the east. The president of Iran, who backs Hezbollah, is evidently one of them.>

This is RD's parlor

Aha! That's the cue. Now RD comes back on stage and calls all the folks who disagree with him "trolls," "weirdos," "cranks," "poor twisted souls," "knotheads," and "hotheads" (have I left any out? :)).

Sheesh. This THREAD is about foreign policy, for goodness sakes. That's the topic of the original Rod-Post. If you don't want to read a variety of views re a very complex foreign-policy situation, then don't bother browsing this thread. Instead, scroll down to the "You Can, Too, Eat Expensive Organic Food Even If You're Living On Food Stamps, And If You Claim Otherwise, Then You're A Troll And A Weirdo" thread. (The thread's not actually called that, but you'll recognize it when you see it. :D)>

First, I apologize for the personal attacks against you. Though I was cranky at the time, they were not called for.

Joseph, apology accepted. An engagement of a good discussion without the personal attacks just makes for better things all around. :-)


You don't have to say it openly. The fact that you criticize Israel while refusing to acknowledge the genocidal goals of most of the Arab world (let alone of Hezbollah and its Iranian supporters)

I readily acknowledge the genocidal goals of a small part of the Arab world. You have overblown it into most of the Arab world, and if you continue to stand by that, then that is where you and I are at odds. But this is also consistent where you and I are also at odds: you insist this is a religious issue (which would explain your useage of the word 'most'), while I continue to insist it is predominantly a political one.


...and the fact that you condemn children writing on bombs while ignoring the use of children as suicide bombers -- speaks silent volumes.

Dude, this is obviously a hot button topic for you and it may be good to take a few deep breaths before writing. If you scroll up, when I mentioned that little girls were being allowed to write messages on missiles destined for Lebanon, I said that evil exists on both sides of the fence, did I not? This directly implies condemnation of the 'Nazi-salute' of the Hezbollah children as well as what was being shown in this picture.

Rather, what I find remarkably absent, is the pro-Israeli folks lack of condemnation of the other. Now that speaks volumes.>

"War and violence do not end through war and violence. War and violence only end when war and violence cease to exist.

This is the stupidest statement I've heard in a long time (and I hear a lot of them).

Name something that just "ceases to exist" unless someone actually makes it cease to exist. Terrorism will NOT be on that list.

When you start a war, you get a war, not whatever you want to get.>

I am a Catholic radical, or to put it more clearly in light of Bill Kauffman's wonderful book, a Catholic reactionary radical.

Nichols, you just gave yourself away as an isolationist. Moreover, most of the "reactionary radical" Catholics I'm familiar with are incredibly anti-Semitic.

What you need to realize, Nichols, is that God never broke His covenant with the Jews, not even after Christ's resurrection and ascention. Otherwise, God would be a liar. Therefore, to oppose the Jews (not the Israeli state as such, but the Jews) is to oppose God.

Those who curse Abraham's covenential descendants curse God (as God Himself told Abraham). Just look at what happened to Spain, Germany and Russia. For that matter, just look at what's happening to the Catholic Church.>

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