Priests of the future
Thursday September 21, 2006
I'm sorry, but this is pathetic. Is this what seminarians spend their time doing, making goobery "Star Wars" home movies? Is this how you prepare to be a spiritual father? Maturity? Hello, anybody home?...
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Rod Dreher is an editorial columnist for the Dallas Morning News, and author of "Crunchy Cons" (Crown Forum), a nonfiction book about conservatives, most of them religious, whose faith and political convictions sometimes put them at odds with mainstream conservatives. The views expressed in this blog are his own.
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Oh, how else are stressed college students supposed to release some of their pent up energy? I thought this was hilarious.
If this is ALL our seminarians EVER did, I'd be appalled and think it pathetic. But, I remember college. Even the best, most mature students need to have a little fun>
Oh, come on Rod. You're starting to sound like the guy who yells at kids to stay off his lawn.
Does this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqaWdkdFb3Y&eurl=
mean that our fighting forces are hopelessly ill-prepared too?
Cut some slack, will ya?>
There are much worse ways for seminarians to unwind.>
B-o-r-i-n-g, overlong, and dumb.
But, if they fail as priests, I'm sure they can get a job here:
">http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/>
Mark, I thought it was silly. And not good-silly, just silly. I presume they'll be lovely priests, but that was just silly and uninspiring.>
Hey you kids, get off my lawn! Harrumph!
Seriously though, is it not worth talking about the kind of image this puts forth? I'm definitely not a partisan of the wrapped-too-tight image of the seminarian (I've heard some pretty funny stories from a priest friend about the Legionaries of Christ seminarians). But it just struck me as surprisingly childish for grown men to be doing that. I would have been more reassured had they been filmed drinking beer and dancing at a rock show. But that's me.>
Eh... really doesn't bother me. Sorry.>
Speaking as a former seminarian (at 3 seminaries), I will attest that most seminarians are geeks of a sort.
Frankly, though, what did you expect? That they spent all their time in church singing Benedictine chant? That would make them monks, not seminarians.
Let's pray we don't produce more Rev. Lovejoys.>
Truly inspiring. As inspiring as certain comments above are illuminating. If I were a Catholic, I wouldn't be enjoying it.
All that perfectly good Catholic architecture shot straight to hell.>
I don't know what I expected, Basil. Not grown men running around playing Luke vs. Darth and filming it for public consumption.
Honestly, this isn't really a big deal to me. But that movie is an interesting Rohrschach test for viewers...>
Perhaps this illustrates another reason why the Church should drop mandatory celibacy for secular priests (as opposed to members of orders)?>
Speaking of maturity, how about getting over the need to express disdain for the goobery delights of those less hip than oneself?
It's pretty obvious that these guys don't take themselves too seriously, and if you can think of a more important virtue than that in a clergyman, let's hear it.>
"It's pretty obvious that these guys don't take themselves too seriously, and if you can think of a more important virtue than that in a clergyman, let's hear it."
Nice try, but it just won't do. If you're familiar with the periodical Touchstone, this is something that could have easily made its "No Comments" section.
I for one am growing quite tired of Catholic defensiveness, when what we should be seeing in its place is Catholic honesty.>
Well, my basic take is that it's harmless geekitude. The greatest crime is that it was put out for public consumption on YouTube.
The life of seminarians and clergy is one of being on display, always weighing the consequences of what one says, does, or does not say or do. Seminary is one of the few places where seminarians can drop their guard, especially as they learn to cope with the demands of their vocation. Seminarians and clergy are just like everyone else, except when they're not. They're expected to cross all manner of social, economic, and political boundaries, always having the right word to say, always knowing when it's better to say nothing than to say something that turns out to be horrible, always weighing whether a private decision (is having a beer here a good idea?) has unforeseen repercussions.
Let the geeky seminarians have their innocent fun. It gives all the faithful a brief glimpse into a different world. As a seminary professor once told my class, (paraphrasing) "Every day you guys are dealing with life and death, spiritual and physical, guiding those entrusted to your care. Having said all that, lighten up!">
Somehow I don't think that would pass patristic muster, Basil. Or even the muster of more recent bearers of Christian gravitas.
Mirth is one thing. Silliness is another.>
Yes, it was silly, but well-made for an amateur video (especially the editing). Sure, there's probably some better way they could be spending their time, but if it's their free time, what the heck?
Plus, isn't what they're doing preferable to what some seminarians were doing at Holy Trinity in Dallas back in the '70s and '80s?>
Rod, I have to agree with Mark Shea's take on this. Are you sure you aren't channeling your inner film critic here? :)
Let's face it, seminarians are already being held to higher standards than other 18-22 year old men. They choose a life of voluntary celibacy and obedience, two characteristics that do not exactly define that demographic. To tell them that on top of this, they're not allowed some occasional silliness, some harmless fun, seems to me to be saying to them that we expect a level of solemnity and maturity from them that far outdistances their peers, and this before they've actually become priests--at which point, we'll expect even more. But even if they follow our instructions to the letter and achieve our expectations of them, they can forget about being treated with any extra respect or consideration, because that, of course, would be clericalism.
And people wonder why it's hard to get a young man to consider the priesthood!>
Doesn't everyone know that men who are preparing to be spiritual fathers are never permitted to be silly? Pssht. It's like the first rule in the handbook!>
Hello. . . did someone leave their sense of humor at home?!?!?!?>
Well, it depends on what you call humor.>
Don't you think they made this for all the kids at the camp. And don't you think the kids probably loved it.
That's one of the great joys of summer camp, right? Watching your counselors make fools of themselves?>
If they want to have fun that's fine, but why film themselves? The movie is dull, because it's egotistical.>
If they want to have fun that's fine, but why film themselves?
It's fun to try and make your own mini-movie. Like cs said, I bet they made it for the kids at the camp they were talking about.>
The only problem I have with it is that it's not a very good movie. I would give them a C- on acting and a D on the conclusion. Cinematography was good though.>
Rod, on this topic I agree with you 100%. (I hope that fact doesn't ruin your day.) Making some goofy home movies during free time is fine, but putting stuff like this on YouTube is indiscrete for seminarians, IMHO.>
Lighten up, willya? So it doesn't meet RodTheMaster's standards, so what? Priests are people, too.
Probably their only mistake is to put the movie on YouTube so the Cool People can make fun of it.>
There's nothing wrong with it. I think you folks are nuts. Thank God none of you are Priests>
I'm amazed that you all have missed the hidden agenda here. Obviously, these seminarians are in training for the next Crusade. Did you watch the Navy video? Why not have some fun while preparing to kick the bad guy's butt?>
I'm not a big fan of this; but it's better to have seminarians do this than have them cruising at gay bars.>
They also did this:
http://homepage.mac.com/geerlingguy/seminary/priestie_boyz/music.html
And, fwiw, they did do this partly to entertain the kids that came to Kenrick Glennon days for camp this summer. I say lighten up. We have the largest class of Seminarians in a long time here, 61, and I for one am proud of them and optimistic for the future.
JH>
yeah, "Priestie Boyz". that's a grand name for a seminary-based rock group. it's also really grand that the seminary allowed its name to be put on the cover of "Priestie Boyz".
If you have trouble seeing what i mean, google the term "boyz".>
I finally agree with Basil. This is harmless geekitude stuff. I laughed at it. Dueling over who's going to be camp director? That's funny. I admit that I watched up to the point that they started dueling and then fast forwarded it because I could see that it was going to be long and boring. But it was funny because it was SOOOO GEEKY.>
No thanks, don't care to Google it. I took it for what they meant it to be, an innocent take off on the Beastie Boyz group. I guess some people will never be happy. I can't believe that anyone is irritated or unhappy with a nerdy video and a music album. In the big picture, is it really that much of a problem?
JH>
I said that I didn't think it was any big deal, but that I thought it was stupid and made the seminarians look bad. One is entitled to disagree. Geez, this is just a blog.>
it's "Beastie Boys", not "beastie boyz". "boyz" with a "z" was apparently the seminarians' idea, an idea which only serves to highlight their lack of worldliness, i mean cluelessness, i mean abject stupidity in light of what has been going on.
btw, the first hit on google for "boyz" is Boyz magazine, a magazine in london for gay men. FYI.
the Church needs better. and apparently we're not going to get it.>
Rod, it's merely geek goofiness. That said, I'll see your "pathetic" and raise you lame, moronic and crass.
To wit: Grown Ass News>
Rod,
Like you, I did groan when I saw this. But on a moral level, I can't say there's anything wrong with it. While it may not be the best mainstream PR for vocations, it's just a fact that there is a large proportion of "geeks" and "nerds" in our seminaries. Doesn't mean they aren't good and holy people, it just means they prefer to unwind by playing board games or pretending to be Darth Vader.
I'm sure they've been picked on enough on the playground in their lives, no need to pick on them some more, especially since we're all on the same side. I suspect that this is the type of seminarian that Mark Shea might've become (no offense, Mark!)>
I agree that it was probably made for the kids at camp. Used to be in youth ministry myself (evangelical protestant days) and we did stuff like that all the time. It seems silly and pointless to people who have some maturity, like Mr. Dreher and other adults, but for people who aren't -- like teens attending a camp -- it really helps build a positive image of the adult staff, because they think, "Oh, these guys know how to have fun, so I bet I'll have a great time."
Furthermore, I'm not opposed to seminarians, or even priests, having time to relax, enjoy themselves, be silly, tell jokes, get some exercise, act out goofy skits, etc., even for their own amusement in such a harmless way.>
I bet they made it for the kids at the camp they were talking about.
If you would like to Google it, you may find out more about it... try Googling 'Duel of the Seminarians,' and I bet you'll find out exactly why the video was made.
it's "Beastie Boys", not "beastie boyz". "boyz" with a "z" was apparently the seminarians' idea, an idea which only serves to highlight their lack of worldliness, i mean cluelessness, i mean abject stupidity in light of what has been going on.
The reason for the name was partly because the band is supposed to be something 'fun'... and we had to use a 'z' because there was already a 'Priesty Boys' and 'Priestie Boys.' If it were up to us, we wouldn't have put the 'z' in there. But, like I said... it is supposed to be light-hearted.
However, what one earlier comment stated rings true:
"Seminarians and clergy are just like everyone else, except when they're not. They're expected to cross all manner of social, economic, and political boundaries, always having the right word to say, always knowing when it's better to say nothing than to say something that turns out to be horrible, always weighing whether a private decision (is having a beer here a good idea?) has unforeseen repercussions."
We are working as hard as we can to become as close to Christ as we can, in preparation for working through the Church to bring other people closer to Christ. And such activities as those mentioned here are important to living a well-rounded life. Would it be better that we do not have some fun every now and then, or that we never try to use what gifts God gives us?>
What would you make of Philip Neri, who had his priests do all sorts of equally silly things (allowing for 450 years' difference in cultural activities)? His priests were understood as disciples of humility, and Philip was canonized.
Not incidentally, he remains a patron saint for priests.>
My only objection is that one of the seminarians was a big fat slob.
And to the lady channeling her inner Anita Bryant claiming that boyz = gay, why don't you do something more productive like picketing the Green Bay Packers for the corrupting homoeroticism of the football snap?>
Rod, you are right this is just a blog and yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just fail to see how this innocent, and yes maybe to some even moronic or whatever, film deserves any of the condescension that I'm seeing here.
I do take it personally because I live in this Archdiocese and because my son was at the camp where the guys were playing around with this. He had a wonderful time, the camp was packed with kids interested in finding out more about Seminary life. I drove away so happy about seeing the crowds of kids and the super nice, polite and enthusiastic Seminarians. So, perhaps it makes no sense to anyone here, but it hurts to see these guys made fun of on these comments.
Now, Kathleen Reilly, who said "it's "Beastie Boys", not "beastie boyz". "boyz" with a "z" was apparently the seminarians' idea, an idea which only serves to highlight their lack of worldliness, i mean cluelessness, i mean abject stupidity in light of what has been going on."
To me, you are coming across as a very cynical person. If they are unaware of this reference, they are 'clueless' or even stupid? Nice.
JH>
Jocasta:
Live forever!>
CCC 2478.
For crying out loud, Rod. I'll bet these guys are going to be great priests.>
" it hurts to see these guys made fun of on these comments."
too freaking bad. As a catholic, it hurts me to see how pathetically little the church has learned from the scandals, and how inept the church leadership is. STILL.
that's hilarious that i'm supposed to feel better about "priestie boyz" b/c there is a Priesty Boys and a Priestie Boys. GREAT! I FEEL SO MUCH BETTER! i'm keeping my fingers crossed that these two groups are not in fact priests or seminarians, but something tells me I hope in vain.
Jocasta, are you aware of issues the catholic clergy has been having for oh, the past 5 years? if not, shoot Rod an email, I'm sure he could give you a doozy for a synopsis.
you catholics really need to wake. up.>
Kathleen:
Thanks for that homily on Strength and Purity Through Ruthless, Sleepless, Unsmiling Bitchiness. On the whole, I'll stick with a couple of seminarians being a bit silly in their spare time.>
Kathleen, what is the solution you propose then? How do the Seminarians convince you they have woken up? By being up on gay subculture references? By swearing off all silliness?
BTW, I don't know you from Adam but normally if I explained my feelings to someone and they said 'too freaking bad' to me, I'd probably not continue a conversaton with them.
I know some of these guys personally. I'll stick with them too.
JH>
Mark Shea, you are a true prize. Charmed as always.>
"Kathleen, what is the solution you propose then? How do the Seminarians convince you they have woken up? By being up on gay subculture references? By swearing off all silliness?"
"Being up on gay subculture references" would be nice. maybe not "swearing off all silliness", but keeping it unpublicized so it doesn't detract from the dignity of the church would be a start. let's begin with baby steps.>
To keep things unpublicized is exactly what seminarians should not have learned from the sex abuse crisis. We want to know them, and know them well, before we ordain them. Jesus wanted us to be both innocent and cunning, but if I have to choose between the two for a priestly formation program I'd rather start with the former than the latter.>
Father DJ, your comments begs the question: are these guys going to be ordained?
i'm not making these points to "win" an argument on a combox. this is not Debate Society. i'm telling you as a catholic that the "priesty boyz", with an album entitled "lost in ecstasy" makes the entire clergy, and specifically that seminary, look clueless, stupid, naive, undignified and sexually immature AT BEST. you can try to diminish my points all you, but the fact remains. This album cover looks like something made up by The Onion if it were mocking catholics. it's *that* ridiculous. it's *that* clueless. the fact you can't see that is your shortcoming, not mine.>
[Bold off.]>
Father DJ, your comments begs the question: are these guys going to be ordained?
This combox has devolved into a duel between agents of the Stodge Side and the Silly Side, but perhaps the two can be reconciled. In that spirit I offer this, which should appeal to comboxers both Stodgy and Silly:
http://begthequestion.info/
Please forgive the unattractive layout of the page -- you might even say its graphic-designer was . . . clueless.>
"Being up on gay subculture references" would be nice.
No. Actually, it wouldn't. If my priest were "up on gay subculture references", I'd be a little concerned.
This album cover looks like something made up by The Onion if it were mocking catholics. it's *that* ridiculous. it's *that* clueless.
For heaven's sake, why?
And speaking of St. Teresa of Avila, didn't she say something like: "Save me from overserious nuns"? Some variation on that, maybe, maybe might apply here.>
BTQ Abuse
I like it.>
Ben D., that's *fascinating*. and so helpful. thanks.>
Kathleen:
Do you have any setting besides "Shrill"? We're talking about a goofy You Tube video, not the End of the World as We Know It.>
" If my priest were "up on gay subculture references", I'd be a little concerned."
Karen LH, newsflash: at this point you should be well past the point of "concerned".>
"Do you have any setting besides "Shrill"?"
Mark Shea, i'm talking about "Priesty/Priestie Boyz/Boys". or didn't you notice. the youtube video is not nearly as interesting (though almost as embarrassing).
Why so concerned with my little comments, Mark? are you ticked you're not the wittiest guy on the 'net after all? nobody's forcing you to read me, if you find the experience unpleasant.>
Kathleen,
I however, was talking about the video Mr. Dreher mentioned in the blog. I have no idea whether the men involved will or should be ordained, as I don't know them. If I begged a question, it wasn't the question raised by Mr. Dreher, but one you've imposed on the conversation. As far as I can tell, the real question for this weblog is whether or not the "Duel of Seminarians" is pathetic. I think not. Does that answer the question?>
BTW, speaking of spiritual fatherhood, I'd wager that most everyone in this conversation had a father who occasionally did silly -- I said silly, not evil -- things with his children. Those few who didn't probably had very bad fathers.>
The Duel of the Seminarians is from the same seminary as "Priestie Boyz", and JH, not me, linked to Priestie Boyz.
The same seminary is named on the album cover "Lost in Ecstasy" by the Priestie Boyz. I think it relevant that the same seminary is happy to be advertised on the album cover, and has its seminarians (who look to be at least in their mid-20's) posting digital movies on Youtube. But interesting that you think such discussion is not relevant to Dreher's question from his original post, to wit "Is this what seminarians spend their time doing...?">
Apparently the answer to my question is "no".
Kathleen: You're like the scary lady at the bar who interrupts a conversation between friends about whether or not a Seinfeld joke was funny to growl about the damn Democrats fluorodating the water and then work yourself into a full-throated shriek about how blind we all are to the Conspiracy, the Decay of Morals, the Damn Kids and Their Music, and the Jealous People Who Know She's Right and Can't Answer Her.
People seldom argue with that woman. That woman always takes it as a testament to her superior intellect, morals, and vision.
This customer is going to find a different seat at the bar.
Sheesh!>
OK, you're not seriously implying (you or Dreher) that they spend a lot of time doing this? It was a summer camp thing for goodness sakes, not their daily routine.
Surely they are entitled to goof off at some point right? I say, fine, ask the question 'should they be doing this' or say you think it's silly, but calling them pathetic, clueless, etc., well let's just say they aren't the ones ending up looking bad here. The line between a semi endearing curmudgeon to being truly obnoxious has been leapt over.
Sorry for linking to the Priestie Boyz thing. I guess with my complete naivete to gay subculture references, I had no idea what a can of worms it would open. I regret that a bunch of nice guys who are open to giving their lives to serve God are getting piled on here. Well perhaps piled on is an exaggerations because really it's only Kathleen and Rod right? Crunch and Contra Crunchy, united as one. Who'd have thought we'd see the day.
JH>
"People seldom argue with that woman."
except you, I guess!>
"OK, you're not seriously implying (you or Dreher) that they spend a lot of time doing this?"
Who knows? maybe they play XBox all day. but i know for a fact they ( in particular the priestie boyz) show *really* poor judgment. same for the seminary. nice going folks. you still don't get it, and you probably never will.
and worry not about dreher and i being "united as one". he wouldn't defend me in a million years no matter how much he agreed with me.>
"Is this what seminarians spend their time doing...?"
Kathleen,
Taken literally, this has to be a rhetorical question. I think the answer is obviously, "Yes," because they did spend their time doing it.
Taken as a universal, i.e., "Is this the only thing seminarians do," it's still rhetorical, since no one has seriously proposed that the seminarians do nothing else with their time.
Taken as a prudential question, i.e., "Should the seminarians have spent their time on this?" -- well, this is not all that different from asking, "Is it pathetic?" That's the question I answered, so I still don't think I begged the question. True, I didn't look at the "Priestie Boyz" video, but it seems clear to me that the title is meant as a play on a pop group of a similar name.
Meanwhile, I return to my original question -- not begged, but certainly ignored. If you condemn these seminarians on the basis of "Duel of Seminarians," then what do you make of all the legends of silliness of St. Philip Neri?>
Fr. DJ, i dont think you are reading my posts. i've been quite clear. in any case, i don't follow your comment.>
Given that Rod's original post called the maturity of these seminarians into question, the lack of maturity on display in this comments thread is really rather ironic.>
PS Mark Shea: Why do you Capitalize Almost Every Word In Your Sentences? Is it meant to Be Funny ?>
Well, since my last contribution I've listened to the "Priestie Boyz" material. I like it, and I'd recommend them to a seminary at least on that account.>
Tope,
You are so right, it is funny and I know I've contributed to it. Normally I never do this, but I guess since the Boyz in question are from my neighborhood, I jumped into the ring.
As for people 'not getting it,' perhaps we can celebrate diversity and agree to disagree on these serious issues of our times. Duel of the Seminarians and Priestie Boyz, right up there with same sex marriage and just war in terms of divisiveness.
Man, I need some more Pumpkin Beer...
JH>
aw yeah man, forget all this crap about the dignity of the church.... all is well in catholic fantasy land. dude, that band is cool! they should DEFinitely be priests (i mean priesties! huh huh!) Just as long as i get me some pumpkin beer. kathleen reilly's so immature, man!>
Geez, you are mean. Not that you care, but really, I bow to your cutting sarcasm, bye bye.
If even bringing up pumpkin beer is problematic here, it is not the place for me. BTW, I believe it was someone else who said the whole thread was immature and I just copped to being part of it.
Back to fantasyland,
JH>
Kathleen,
OK. Could you explain specifically what you think is wrong with the "Lost in Ecstasy" album cover?>
uh .... Karen LH, I think I'm done. but i have an idea: why don't you just walk up to father on sunday after mass and say "hi priestie!" or, "hi priestie boy!" and then ask father "specifically what he thinks is wrong" with that? or better yet, save it for when the bishop or cardinal visit! or even the pope!>
Kathleen and others might want to check out this link:
http://homepage.mac.com/geerlingguy/blog/index.html
Scroll down a little way, to the blog entry about these seminarians praying in front of an abortion clinic.
God bless these young men!>
i'm telling you as a catholic that the "priesty boyz", with an album entitled "lost in ecstasy" makes the entire clergy, and specifically that seminary, look clueless, stupid, naive, undignified and sexually immature AT BEST. you can try to diminish my points all you, but the fact remains.
1. The artwork on the cover of the CD is actually a well-known art work in an Italian Catholic Church by Bernini entitled, "The Ecstasy of St. Theresa."
2. Ecstasy, for those not 'in the know,' is not only a drug some people purchase on shady street corners. If you'd like to find out more about what the CD's title is talking about, click here.>
Jeff, it's rather impudent of you to presume my ignorance of either catholic art or catholic ecstasy.
if you do in fact intend to become a priest, perhaps you will understand that it's YOUR dignity and credibility that is at stake here.>
Jeff,
There are those of us who welcome priests who don't believe dignity and a sense of humor are mutually exclusive. My husband and I enjoyed the video, at any rate. :)>
"uh .... Karen LH, I think I'm done. but i have an idea: why don't you just walk up to father on sunday after mass and say "hi priestie!" or, "hi priestie boy!" and then ask father "specifically what he thinks is wrong" with that? or better yet, save it for when the bishop or cardinal visit! or even the pope!"
Best post yet.
And if any of you have witnessed the exchanges between Kathleen and me in the past, you'll know how hard it was for me to say that.
Although, Kathleen, I think I did once commend you on the manly nature of your posts. ;) You've more than held your own here, and the quote above pretty much sums up the bankruptcy of the opposing arguments.
Our culture is in dire need of some gravitas, and that video was a reflection of that.>
Thank you, Tope.>
if you do in fact intend to become a priest, perhaps you will understand that it's YOUR dignity and credibility that is at stake here.
Duly noted. I respect your opinion.>
Seriously, folks, why not acknowledge that kathleen is a troll and move on?
I'm a traditionalist (and therefore should have a monopoly on bitterness) but kathleen makes me look like a Haagen-Haas groupie, cheerfully singing "Anthem" or perhaps "Sing Out, Earth and Sky".
Instead of "Priestie Boyz", maybe she can release an album titled "Harridan Howls".>
...cheerfully singing "Anthem" or perhaps "Sing Out, Earth and Sky".
Ooh! Ooh! How about 'City of God?' That's another perennial favorite ;).>
1. The artwork on the cover of the CD is actually a well-known art work in an Italian Catholic Church by Bernini entitled, "The Ecstasy of St. Theresa."
2. Ecstasy, for those not 'in the know,' is not only a drug some people purchase on shady street corners. If you'd like to find out more about what the CD's title is talking about, click here.
That's why I thought the cover art was clever, although when I saw "ecstasy", I didn't think the drug, I thought sex.
But it's the same thing: Because of our oversexualized (or over-drug-using) culture, we look at a picture of a swooning woman and see the word "ecstasy", and think sex or drugs. Then we realize what we're looking at and think, "Oh, that kind of ecstasy -- the real kind.">
uh .... Karen LH, I think I'm done. but i have an idea: why don't you just walk up to father on sunday after mass and say "hi priestie!" or, "hi priestie boy!" and then ask father "specifically what he thinks is wrong" with that? or better yet, save it for when the bishop or cardinal visit! or even the pope!
I think it's a question of context.>
Ooh! Ooh! How about 'City of God?' That's another perennial favorite
Nah. City of God doesn't hold a candle to Anthem for jaw-dropping heresy.>
So many converts have a totally unrealistic idea about priests and seminarians. They don't spring fully formed from God's cabbagae patch; they come from the culture.
I'm really tired of lay people who go around acting like Vincent Price in the Witchfinder General. More of us need to take the starch out of our shorts and relax a little. It's not a sin to laugh and be goofy, especially when you're young and in college.
By the way, St. John Bosco was known for his sense of humor. Some people in his day were scandalized by it but thank God, he shrugged their comments and sour looks off and kept right on.>
STAR WARS FAN FILMS RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.theforce.net/theater
Rod as per usual has no taste.>
Fave (not) line from Anthem: "We are question, we are creed."
Quoi?>
But it's the same thing: Because of our oversexualized (or over-drug-using) culture, we look at a picture of a swooning woman and see the word "ecstasy", and think sex or drugs. Then we realize what we're looking at and think, "Oh, that kind of ecstasy -- the real kind."
Very good point. Perhaps, as a new generation of Catholics begins to grow into mature adults, we can overturn society's definitions of words such as these and make people understand these things in a new light.>
"So many converts have a totally unrealistic idea about priests and seminarians."
dymphna, i'm a cradle catholic. we cradle catholics *did* have unrealistic ideas about priests and seminarians. we used to respect them and treat them with the dignity of their office, b/c we thought that's what they wanted. apparently we were wrong. i guess that's why there are fewer and fewer "cradle catholics" every year.>
kathleen reilly you have been consummed by the craby side of the Force. A fitting Sith Witch you make for the sith Lord Darth Rod.>
Mr. Geerling, I'm a cradle Catholic too, and I think there's a difference between respecting priests for the dignity of their office, and sourly insisting that seminarians should curb every youthful high spirit they have because someday they're going to be priests. Frankly, I was quite moved by some of the pictures/stories on your blog, and will be praying for your vocation.
As for Kathleen Reilly, I'd just like to say that while I disagree thoroughly with your opinion on this matter, it does my heart some good to see that you actually can agree with Rod on something, and that you have become the champion and defender of his opinion on this thread! :)>
God help us clergy if people respect us and treat us with dignity for our own sakes. Very likely, both clergy and laity will quickly be disillusioned, as some bloggers here evidence. Yes, people should honor their pastors, but they should do it because it's the right thing to do, along the lines of the 4th commandment (as the Catholics list them). Honor accorded to parents, pastors, and presidents participates in the honor accorded to God -- even when the parents, etc., in question are not themselves worthy of the honor.>
Fr. DJ: "God help us clergy if people respect us and treat us with dignity for our own sakes."
Father, I heartily agree, but I would add that as a parent I can do quite a bit to help my children do the right thing in honoring me (out of obedience) by acting in an honorable fashion myself. Therefore I believe your statement lies outside the scope of the argument occasioned by Rod's original post which was seconded by myself and some others here.>
And just to clarify, I said I thought the posting was indiscreet (yes, misspelled the first time!) not dishonorable. I don't think I would have used the word pathetic, but I recognize that Rod is prone to use superlatives when dealing with topics about which he's passionate.>
Of course, Pauli, you're right about acting honorably. I was only responding to the most recent remarks by Kathleen.
On the other hand, I think even the label indiscreet is too strong. Within the bounds of legitimately human conduct, we need all kinds of ministers. There is a time and place for this sort of frivolity, even among the clergy.
I was told once that at a conference at Steubenville, a Dominican friar was the featured speaker, but he was preceded by singing in the assembly. The last song was one of those jubilant youth songs light on the lyrics -- a lot of la-la-la-ing. When the Dominican got up to speak, he prefaced his remarks, "You can tell that song was written by a Franciscan."
The joke is amusing because it captures the legitimate differences between St. Francis and St. Dominic. It's also instructive because it reminds me that -- apart from matters of faith and morals -- any totalist approach to ecclesiastical life is bound to devolve into something reductionistic. It would be wrong to insist that all clergy have to do silly things like "Duel of Seminarians," but it would be equally wrong to insist that none ever do so.>
In her notes of 217 and 350, Kathleen Reilly indicates that she is operating under the illusion that "boyz" is some sort of coded gay reference.
It is not.
The term originated and still has most of its currency in rap music and the black street culture. That vaunted First Google Page she cited has some gay references, sure, but most are of the other kind -- Boyz II Men, Boyz N the Hood, Dem Franchize Boyz, and the Mama's Boyz. Off the top of my head, I can only think of the Geto Boyz, Little John and the Eastside Boyz, the Jamaican soccer team's nickname the Reggae Boyz, and the stage show Altar Boyz.
As the name "Dem Franchize Boyz" indicates (plus the song from the aforementioned show "Church Rulez"), using the "z" character rather the "s" to represent the hard "s" sound, is an increasingly feature of vernacular writing in popular culture.
So faced with the possibility that "boyz" was a black-music reference rather than a gay reference, Kathleen jumps immediately to the latter without any further evidence. One would think the facts that (1) we're talking about the name of a music group, and (2) the other word in the name gives a rhyme with another established music group ... these would tend to indicate the former, but maybe that's just me.
Further ... and please take my word on this one. if a person familiar with gay subculture, as Kathleen think these priests are to be presumed as being, wants to use a gaysex-related spelling of the word "boy," it's actually "boi."
Mr. Shea:
Watch your "bitchiness" language. You're being unfair to all the bitches out there.>
COCK-UP ALERT ....
I can only think of
should read ...
I can ALSO think of
Don't know where my mind went.>
"That vaunted First Google Page she cited has some gay references, sure"
are you supporting my argument or refuting it? because it sure sounds like the former and not the latter, in spite of your best intentions.>
The art of creative snipping on display.>
first 2 pages of google my friend:
chadzboyz.com (gay teen boys support, latinboyz.com (latin men uncut), boyz magazine (essential guide for gay men), venus boyz (a film journey through a universe of female masculinity)
egg me on some more?>
Against how many black music cites?
Against what density of gay citations for boi (and abbreviations like Bank of Ireland don't count)?
Which should be privileged in the context of a music group with a first name that yields a rhyme with a music group ... why?>
So now this thread devolves into...gay Google-whacking.
I think that's a heck of a dang lot more immature than some seminarians having a blast with a lightsaber duel ;).>
Kathleen, I love you very much, but gotta disagree with you here.
Not that your strongly expressed views justify anyone in "bitch" and "harridan" namecalling....sheesh!
But anyway...I'm with Mark Shea re this. Rod needs to lighten up.
God bless, all,
Diane>
I'm not all that familiar with either the gay or the black subcultures (which I suppose makes me immature and clueless), but Courage Man's comments serve to point out the dangers of research by Google. The Internet is a great information tool, but you've got to know how to evaluate what you find.>
To Craby ones with no taste I have just this to say.........BOYZ FROM THE DWARF!!!!
">http://www.reddwarf.co.uk>
To all those who denounce this innocent display of fun-loving joie de vivre, I would pose the rhetorical question my grandmother used to ask my grandfather when he was waxing especially curmudgeonly and tiresome about the activities of their offspring:
"Ed, were ever young?">
Should read:
"Ed, were you ever young?">
BenYachov, you're smeggin' spot-on! ;)>
diane, i refuse to speak to you forthwith. you have achieved the status of troll in my universe. how dare you disagree with me!
;-)>
My 11-year-old son thinks this is the coolest thing he's ever seen--it's exactly what he and his friends like to do in the back yard. Where can he sign up for camp? Seriously, God gave us humor, let's enjoy it!>
St. Philip Neri read jokebooks to cardinals, made seminarians wear (live) cats around Rome, and occasionally acted like a village idiot to keep people from taking him or themselves too seriously. Now that was St. Philip, and maybe these fellas aren't saints, but then again maybe they are. I don't know.
There's precedent for ecclesial silliness now and then, and I don't want to read too much in a single video at any rate.>
the End of the World as We Know It.
I'd like to point out that that is REM, not hip-hop of any kind.>
Where can he sign up for camp?
St. Louis Office of Vocations
You're serious, aren't you? ;-)
_>
Playfulness?
Silliness?
In a seminarian?
Bah! Humbug!>
God bless these seminarians -- humor is one of God's gifts. So is the ability to reach out to the young. I'm just sorry you've had to suffer undue ridicule for something so harmless.
Rod, I'm a fan, truly. But ease up, here, dude.>
Oh no ... seminarians who are doing things that NORMAL college guys are doing? Yeah, Rod -- we'd better stop this. It's better that they hide their normalcy. Why if we had seminarians who were more mainstream (instead of exclusively representing a 6% population group) it might mean that ... um ... well ... we may end up with priests more representative of the overall population ... who could relate to the other 94% of the population. I guess it's better that seminarians get into fabric, flowers, and flitting around. There must be something wrong with these guys -- they can operate a digital video camera ... AND they edited the video! Wow, seminarians who are technically savvy. What will this mean for the priesthood?>
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