Re your thoughtful words about the Amish shooting, I have to say this: I recently read about sexual abuse among the Amish. I don’t know how common it is, or whether it exists more among some Amish than others. But I was disturbed that victims are told to forgive and forget, and that the abusers stay in the community (if they confess.) Abusers are not removed (if they confess) – they are still there. And victims are told to forget. This is certainly different from the way abusers are treated in “our” world. We are told that the abused can never forget. We are told that abusers must be removed, and labeled so they do not abuse another.
I wondered what David Clohessey would say. Who is right, the Amish or SNAP? It is true that abuse by a priest is extra horrible because he claims to represent God – but abuse by a father (exp in a patriarchal group like the Amish) would seem to me to be equally devastating. Isn’t “forgive and forget” what Catholic victims were told in the past? Do local authorities ignore Amish abuse as a “community problem”, the way Catholic abuse was covered in the past?
I wonder.
That's a good point. If what the reader says is true of the Amish, then they are to my way of thinking seriously wrong. It could well be because they, being so otherworldly, have a deficient understanding of what sexual abuse is. Forgiveness, properly understood, is not the same thing as saying that the person who broke the law shouldn't be accountable for it. It is -- as a Baptist pastor who suffered through seven teenagers being shot to death at a prayer meeting in his church by a suicidal gunmen told me -- refusing to wish evil upon someone who has committed evil. If the Amish are suppressing crime in this way, I cannot conclude other than that it is very wrong. They should forgive the evildoer -- but turn him over to the police all the same.
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M_David: No, they are not stupid. However, bear in mind that most of their leaders, "bishops", if you will, have at most a 12th grade education, and often only an 8th grade education. Remember also that they separated themselves from the "English" culture over 100 years ago. Now imagine putting males with limited education in charge of communities with 19th century understandings of women's roles, psychology, and discipline. You will get sexual abuse in some instances.
Watsy: I believe they take seriously the NT admonition about settling quarrels among yourselves rather than going to the civil authorities. This makes them very resistant to turning their brethren over to the police.>
Matt N:
bishops...have at most a 12th grade education...Now imagine putting males with limited education in charge of communities with 19th century understandings of women's roles, psychology, and discipline...
Let me see if I can imagine it.
I'm closing my eyes. What I see is: intact and large families, few social problems, mature children, healthy and hardworking people...if you think I'm idolizing, just look at their reaction to the school shooting and the manner and maturity in which those girls chose to die.
OTOH, I don't have to imagine my culture. Rampant divorce, STDs, AIDS, child sucides, anorexia, massive child and sexual abuse...
And your point is...what? Feminist culture GOOD, all others BAD? The evidence seems shaky, at best.>
http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2005/feature_labi_janfeb05.msp
Feminist culture has good points and bad points. So do the others. Any fruitcake can see that.>
males with limited education
Also, I would point out that with such a limited education, the Amish have produced a stable, growing, generally healthy culture.
Why, with our great education and such broad knowledge of human psychology, do we produce such a cultural mess?
It would be interesting to plant cameras inside 1000 homes/communities (say 500 Amish and 500 others) for 5 years, and then get some metrics to compare (e.g. abuse, health, crime, etc.) to see how those ignorant bumpkins stack out against our superior culture.
A sidenote: Russia is one of the best educated countries in the world today.>
We live in a society of laws to protect society and punish the guilty.Those guilty of sexual abuse have broken the law of God and men, and are to be held accountable legally. A crime is a crime. Spiritually they may be forgiven, legally they must face the consequences of their actions and abuse of others.
Also: (1) It is wrong for a church leader to "Order" forgiveness, that comes from the heart, (2) Sexual offenders are usually repeat offenders.
From what I have read: Amish sexual abuse is definitely there, and it is treated lightly. Offenders are usually shunned for a couple of weeks. The victims are made to feel like it is their "problem", and swift forgiveness cures all. That is false, the residual sideeffects and after effects of sexual abuse last for years and it takes a lot of love and listening and understanding to break through to a measure of healing and forgiveness.
I am a nursing clinician and a minister, and I have dealt with these issues in the past. It is not to be treated lightly.
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