Jape on Christians and Turkey

If Christianity in Eastern Europe survived centuries of Turkish Imperialism and then communism, I think that my fellow Orthodox can survive Turks doing menial labor that Christians are not willing to do.

Western Europe might be a different story, but Western Europe's been losing its faith without Turks for a while now, so I don't see how Turks would make the situation worse. The Turks in Germany aren't the reason for the weakening of Christianity there, so I don't see why they would be in other countries.>

Yep. Irreversibly open up the remnants of Christendom to mass migration of a culturally alien people in a time of dramatic population and cultural decline, all for the sake of the hope that Christians living in Turkey won't get beaten up when they go out for a carton of milk. Is this really a worthwhile exchange?
posted by Crunchy Con

This statement is tantamount to suggesting that since fire ants have wrecked such havoc on the southern United States Canadians better prepare for an invasion of fire ants.

The social and economic environment that has nurtured conservative Islam in the middle east doesn't exist in Europe. If it does then something comparable to Islam will come to fruition because it's the environment creates fundamentalistic faiths.

What will happen to Islam in Europe will be the same thing that has happened to Chrisitanity in Europe. The circumstances or environment that cultivated a faith like Christianity no longer exists or is so small that it's unimportant.

It amazes me that the proponents of a free market economic system can be so blind about the same principles being applicable in the parallel world of faith.>

Harvey's point seems to be similar to the one being made by Fr. Jape, though Jape views the phenomena in a negative light while Harvey thinks it is benign.

In other words, the EU may be worse than Islam for traditional Christianity.

Who is jape btw.>

Think China Rod, they've been culture and religious concious longer than anyone else. They've absorbed change instead of fighting it. We could do well to observe that lesson.

With the exception of Ghengis Khan, China has never had a foreign invasion. Even after the Mongol invasion, the great wall was built to keep the barbarians out. Chinese are xenophobic by nature and the term Chinese use for caucasians is Gwailo (translates to white devil).

They did not welcome nor had any desire to mix with foreign cultures.

I see many people have a naive belief that religion is quite trivial and has no affect on peoples lives and a prosperous secular Turkey will have no use for Islam. I disagree. Islam is very much alive in Turkey and the most radical strain (wahabism) is becoming stronger as it is throughout the Islamic world. Also through it's porous borders, Turkey will be a new gateway for mass illegal immigration into Europe. With it's dwindling population, I do not believe a culturally and religiously weakened Europe can withstand mass Islamic immigration.

I originally had high hopes for Benedict but it seems he caves under pressure. He wants favourable media attention. Some will say he did not say that he supports Turkey's entrance to the EU. That is not what the media is reporting and I doubt he will correct them. We are bound to respect the office of the pope and follow the dogma but we have no obligation to follow stupid political manouvers or corruption. With that logic, defenders can also claim the Borgia popes as well as Cardinal Richelieu were holy devout men that were missunderstood.>

I see many people have a naive belief that religion is quite trivial and has no affect on peoples lives and a prosperous secular Turkey will have no use for Islam. I disagree. Islam is very much alive in Turkey and the most radical strain (wahabism) is becoming stronger as it is throughout the Islamic world. Also through it's porous borders, Turkey will be a new gateway for mass illegal immigration into Europe. With it's dwindling population, I do not believe a culturally and religiously weakened Europe can withstand mass Islamic immigration. Cajetan

I guess one of the handicaps one has to accept if they believe their faith is all powerfull is to also accept the power of another faith.

Wahabism is the Islamic example of the same return to basics we see in Crunchy Conism. It's assuming that the system is good and the failure is in the individual.

But if we're seeing so many examples of failures then shouldn't we at least question the concept of returning to ideals that have a history of failure?>

As a dual citizen of the US and the EU, I should point out the reverse possibility for rebuilding Magna Graeca - those Greek lands now in Turkey. If Turkey joined the EU, then mass migration of Greeks into formerly Greek lands in Asia Minor could actually increase Orthodoxy in Turkey. The same could be said for Armenians and Chaldeans/Assyrians who may be willing to return to their ancestral homelands. This could be the Christian version of the Jewish 'return' to Israel that people undertake despite the danger and for the sake of their ethnic and religious heritage. Such 'replanting' was partly the cause of the resurgence of monasticism on Mt. Athos in Greece.>

"Hear that Rod? Your religion isn't efficient any more. Better dump it and move on to something more applicable to your environment."

He just did that, didn't he?>

Remember that Turkey is a militantly secular state and vigorously persecutes Islam. Turkish Muslims are being radicalized by their own government, and fleeing to Western Europe where they can practice their faith in relative freedom.

Religious freedom in Turkey-- a prerequisite to EU membership-- would also serve to de-radicalize its persecuted religious majority, and make those dangerous Muslim immigrants... well, less dangerous.

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I disagree. I think more religious freedom in Turkey would simply give radicals the opening they want to pursue their agenda. I doubt they would be de-radicalized.>