Dead Saddam

the prissiness of the Vatican

Oh for crying out loud, Rod. You never miss a trick, do you?

How much do you wanna bet that there were Orthodox leaders out there voicing concerns similar to Cardinal Martino's? Check with (recently retired) OCA Bishop Tikhon, one of the loudest mouths in cyberspace (and one of the most left-wing prelates I know of). Chances are he shares Cardinal Martino's reservations. (If he doesn't, you can bet he's voicing views far more eccentric, and in a far more unseemly way.)

For the record: Is it not remotely possible that Cardinal Martino was motivated, not by "prissiness," but by that Mercy Thing (which lies at the very heart of Christianity)? But I forgot. He's Catholic; therefore he must be a prissy, effeminate sissy. Right. How surreal this blog has become.

Diane

My new sig line: "Our Lady of Pizza Hut may have banal music, but at least I can attend there without fear of being clobbered with sledgehammers, crowbars, and fire extinguishers." :)>

Saddam executed his subjects, now being hanged over to his enemies he is executed himself, if enemies of his enemies will come to power, they will execute those who executed him. Isn't it a vile circle?

The man was 70 years old, why he was not caught and executed by USA 25 years ago, right after he comitted that crime, wasn't it more just to leave the old man alone with his conscience?

Orthodox Patriarchs already condemned that execution, and russian internet is full of bashing of American 'democracy':(
I think it was a very bad idea to execute that man,before my eyes are pictures of him standing near the loop and waiting death, very bad tv perfomance at holidays.:(
I hope that many his sins will be forgiven in the other world after such cruel punishment from people.>

The Catholic Church teaches that the death penalty is permissible if there are no bloodless ways of protecting society from the criminal.

Did they teach this during the Inquisition?>

Saddam's execution is no more than the natural law of cause and effect or simply he reaped what he sowed. It is sad indeed his actions/life were so vile to the point of him being hanged and I felt sorrow that he choose to live his life in the manner he did and all he'll be remembered for is the pain, sorrow and deaths of so many people. I prayed for his soul when I heard of his death. The remorse I feel is that Saddam was given 30 years to kill/torture the people of Iraq.>

"Peretz" is Russian for "pretzel," which about sums up the state of the man's logic. If he thinks that the Vatican should balk at opposing capital punishment because of the inquisition, then he should also come out against the US rep to the UN sleaking out against slavery in Africa. Cardinal Martino is no shining light among Catholic prelates, and his statements about Saddam have been quite laughable, but he's a genius compared to Marty Peretz.>

Actually, Rod, it does make you a hypocrite. I can actually understand why it may have been necessary to put this man to death, but blase about his execution?(sorry don't know how to add the accent to the e)

Either Sadaam is God's child or none of us are. I am personally devastated that he was executed. How many have been brought back to life as a result? Are those whom he has hurt now whole? Either we accept all Jesus' message or none. Could he not have told him "neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more" or is that only for adulterous women? I would suggest that all of us pray for forgiveness of our own sins and for all. I would fear to mete out justice to others for fear that justice would also be my own portion.>

Do you seriously believe that Saddam would have received this justice had the U.S. *not* invaded Iraq?

He does not Joseph. His solution would have been to give Sadaam his job back just as long as he became our "SOB." Also, Joseph did you ever think people could be against the Death Penalty because it is capricously used and deters nothing? An example would be the BTK Killer, Aldrich Aimes etc. Even with the depravity and pure evil committed by them they only get life. Yet someone like Karla Faye Tucker committs a murder then changes her life for the better gets executed. What is wrong with this picture? Where will the posts be criticizing the justice system and their attorneys? I am not holding my breath in anticipation.>

Also, Joseph did you ever think people could be against the Death Penalty because it is capricously used and deters nothing? An example would be the BTK Killer, Aldrich Aimes etc. Even with the depravity and pure evil committed by them they only get life.

Anonymous, you're confusing two issues. Any punishment can be capriciously used. Such use reflects judicial misfeasance, not the punishment itself. Totaliatarian regimes repeatedly use the death penalty for offenses that don't deserve it (such as criticizing the leader or the state). But that fact, in and of itself, doesn't necessarily mean that murderers should not be executed.

I believe that Scripture makes this plain in the Mosaic Law, which not only demands the execution of murderers as a proportional punishment for murder but also due process for them through an honest, ethical judicial system. The two really can't be separated.>

Bush called this execution as first step of democracy in Iraq (something like that). It is horrible. Some newspapers write that USA discredited democracy completely.

Who needed execution of harmless old man, whom noone could defend? As for his sins, comitted very long ago, doesn't Bush has less sins comitted? Hundreds of thousands of innocent civillians were killed during the war in Iraq, including american soldiers, why Bush is not caught and hanged then, for the sake of justice?
Yes, Saddams way of ruling was medieval,it is more typical for that part of the world, but why USA decided to play Middle Age and go with a crusade to revenge old tyrant for his past when he became old and weak?>

I think the big message we got when Saddam was toppled was the same one we received when Tito died and Yugoslavia was left to her own devices.

Their both perfect examples of what can happen when the answer to chaos is faith.

I would have felt better about Saddam's death if we hadn't had our representatives obviously orchestrating it. Of course the big advantage of that was our President got a live feed of the execution.

I'm sure if questioned now about his high point as an international leader. His answer wouldn't be catching his seven plus pound perch in his own pond. It would be watching the man who tried to kill his daddy swing on the end of a rope.>

The best thing about this whole farce, is that the people who are crowing the most loudly about executing Saddam for his numerous crimes against humanity are, for the most part, the same people who think our biggest failing in Iraq is that we haven't yet "done what needs to be done" in order to crush the various insurgencies - in other words, employ the same sort of brutal, heavy-handed tactics that Saddam used, i.e. "crimes against humanity." See John Podhoretz, Ralph Peters, David Horowitz, et. al. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss, etc.>

The poster above has it right: Either Saddam Hussein is a son of God, or none of us are.

Eric W: Throwing out some quotes from the Bible doesn't add anything to your argument. Trying to see where you were coming from, I looked up each of these quotes. Guess what? Not a single one tells us to put people to death.

Jesus was addresing the Jews in that passage but his words were meant for all of us. Same with St. Paul, who as a mass murderer before his conversion. What if he had been executed? And in the passage you cite, he was talking about people who claim equality with him in order to boast in themselves. What has that to do with hanging someone?

The last quote you cite from St. John is talking about the sin that leads to death is apostasy, and he wasn't saying that you should not pray about that, but that he wasn't saying "you must" pray about it, i.e., consider it optional. He did say to avoid people who were of the anti-Christ, but he did not say to kill them.>

HB,

I'd like to see if you'd feel the same way you do now if you had been tortured by this man, or if you had family members brutally murdered on his orders.

I don't know, mlyons. I like to think not. Anyway I'm not trying to minimize Saddam's brutality or evilness at all. It's the behavior of the "good guys," which you eloquently describe, that's distressing.

HB>

'Silly Iraqis - all those people testifying about what Saddam did to them and their families should have just chilled and taken a trip to Disney World and let Saddam make an appearance on American Idol, or start his own talk radio or TV show.'

I just don't understand what America has to do with it.
Who gave it a right to punish sins of people in other countries, being such a global judge of humanity? Does USA has syndrome of manager of the world? That syndrome caused more deaths of civillians than Saddam's executions, and ammount of victims is not supposed to stop.People of Iraq are killing and will kill more of each other, Saddam could stop them, perhaps by fear, but USA can't do it. So why they poke their noses in business which they don't understand, and only cause more deaths?

Yes, perhaps it might be more christian to invite all Iraquis to disneyland than to shoot them.

And i'm not trying to justify Saddam's sins. In my opinion, it was business of Iraq people to overthrow their ruler. I agree with saying that all peoples are worth of rulers they have. If they didn't overthrow him, their death might be compared to death from tsunami or earthquake. Sin remains on soul of Saddam. After USA interferring in situation responsibility for deaths is on them.>

One specious argument for the death penalty is that killing the criminal somehow brings "closure" or restores justice to the victims. It might satisy a need for revenge, but I see no evidence that it brings healing to the victim. I say this firsthand as someone who has witnessed and suffered violence and brutality.

Whether or not it brings closure, it removes vicious and murderous perpetrators from society, permanently.

Also, when Jesus going to the cross and/or was on it, He didn't chide Pilate or the soldiers for crucifying the two thieves on His sides. Jesus acquiesced to the State's right to execute those deserving of it, and St. Paul seems to agree with the State's right and power to execute criminals as well.>

One more thing:

If all the sympathy for Saddam on this thread reflects contemporary Catholic thought, then Catholicism in a severe moral crisis.>

Eric W: You are right, Jesus Christ said not a word. As Isaiah prophesied: "Ill-treated and afflicted, he never opened his mouth, like a lamb led to the slaughter-house, like a sheep dumb before its shearers, he never opened his mouth." This would explain why Jesus Christ didn't mount a protest against crucifixion as he went to the Cross, instead he asked God to forgive them (us) because we don't know what we are doing. We still don't.


Joseph D'Hippolito: You cite the Old Testament Law to support your position in favor of capital punishment and even try to drag a paraphrased quote by St. Paul in to bolster your argument. I believe the actual quote you are looking for is this one: "For the wage paid by sin is death; the gift freely given by God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". This is the part of Romans where St. Paul explains that the Christians, knowing the Law, through Christ are freed from it, "But now we are released from the Law, having died to what was binding us, and so we are in a new service, that of the spirit, and not in the old service of a written code." You can have the Old Testament Law if you want, Joseph D'Hippolito, but I'll take what Jesus Christ gave me, forgiveness, mercy, eternal life.>

Only note that all show trials-the Soviet and Nazi ones, Nurmeberg, Eichmann, Saddam, Milosevic-are basically Western man's attempt to give some a veneer of order to chaos. Yes, all of these men knew they were doing evil. But as noted, Saddam was perfectly rational-as were all of them. In each case the outcome was foreordained, yet jurisdiction and the statutory violations you would see in any criminal trial were basically invented "crimes against humanity" ex post facto.

It might have been better to have just shot him that day or allow the Iraqis to treat him like Ceacescu of Mussolini.It might have been more honest. Yet in so many ways like this whole war Bush would rather wrap his turd in fancy paper. As I write this, Sadr's in his warm bed, his budd is the Prime Minister and his militia has free reign. For this PC stupidity of a war with rules of engagement that do nothing but put our men in harm's way for ...I don't even know what any more, American fighting men have died. either fight a war-which meant leveling Fallujah and killing Sadr and his men back then, or don't bother. Meet the new boss...

Also, the article's whole tone is to allow Saddam's evil to be put at the feet of an indifferent mother. Many good people grow up in destitute and awful circumstances, and it would be better if no one did. But this constatnt Freudian "your parents are to blame" is too easy. We all have rational thoght and instinctively know right from wrong. Parenting plays a role. We should all love our children and raise them to be empathetic. There comes a point for any person that we have to take responsibility for our own actions and lives. People who grew up in far worse circustances than Saddam hav made great contributions. They simply made better and more difficult choices.>

'First, Christ Himself never issued any statement opposing capital punishment.'

'Second, God demands the execution of murderers'

Excuse me, God demanding murder for murder...that seems absurd to me.

' With your rationale Mary, concerning the Iraqis overthrowing Saddam themselves,(which by the way they tried to do) and if they didnt then their deaths can be likened to an earthquake/tsunami than one could also surmise why feed the hungry cant they get their own food? Why administer to the sick shouldnt they die anyway? Why send aid to Darfur? Why help abuse victims cant they get away from the abuse themselves? Why be concerned that people are murdered or brutalize at all?'

The fact is that not all Iraq people were against Saddam, as western people are used to think. If the majority was against, they would have overthrown him. Remember Stalin, he put in prison millions and executed thousands of 'enemies of state' during his rule, but MILLIONS of people worshipped him as God, it was a cult of personality. Why USA didn't come with war to USSR to overthrow him and save sufferers from his regime,it choose partnership with Stalin, meeting in Yalta, signing agreements etc. and 'went to bed at night with a clear conscious', as you say.
And i repeat that i m not justyfying Saddam's sins. Feeding poor and helping sick doesn't cause deaths. This case is more complicated than just protecting weak from strong, when invasion to Iraq happened no people were killed for political reasons there since long ago, the situation was rather stable,and you see result of invasion, almost every day dozens of people die.
If anyone would dare to attack USSR with purpose to kill Stalin, the world would drown in blood i giuess, because millions believed in Stalin and would defend him for the last drop of their blood. What i m trying to say is that in the end rulers are send to people by God, as punishment or as cross, perhaps for Russians Stalin was send for murdering of Royal Family and believing in building of earthly paradise -communism, later Stalin was condemned by USSR, that madness stopped itself, glory to common sense, or maybe time of that punishment came to an end, and thankfully noone invaded to install democracy here.
I believe in treating tyrants by economical blocades, political boykotts and helping their victims to escape abroad, not in Medieval Crusades, invading other countries and killing thousands of people with purpose of installing 'more human' regime.>

The OT is just as divinely inspired as the NT, Elmo. As such, it reflects the moral mind of God just as much as the NT does. To assume otherwise is to assume that God is schizophrenic, much less to assume a heretical position. Joseph D'Hippolito


Ah yes, We should have used God's OT morality on Saddam.

Actually we got close with Bush's tactics.

You see God would have first ruined the land like He did with the Egytians or as He did in the time of Noah. He'd have followed this with slaughtering first born sons, one of His passions evidently, He did it often and with relish, even His own.

If we were to follow God's example I guess we'd start off by slaughtering first Saddam's immediate family. God purposely killed David and Bathsheba's first born along with poisoning the minds of some of David's older children. If it worked for David then it would surely work for Saddam, right?

How about we do what God did to the heatherns in the OT? You remember, kill everything. And if the troops made the mistake of bringing home prisoners, even if the they were women and children, slaughter them too.

No Joe, if you want to go Biblical let's do it. You want a virgin to do with what you will? God gave those to the soldiers and priests as bounty. Gives a whole new reason to be a holy man, right?>

An evil man got what he deserved. This is just, according to the wisdom of man.

In Orthodox theology, we confess that God is just, but must immediately apophatically add that His justice is not like ours.

This being the case, we ought first to express our gratitude that ultimately, we are subject to His mercy, not our own.

Then we ought seriously to mediate on whether it is pleasing to God that some of those created in His image feel it necessary to terminate the lives of others created in His image. Do we, who cannot bestow life, have the right to take it away if there are other possibilities, such as permanent incarceration?

I, for one, am not at all certain that Saddam Hussein belonged in that category, given the Forces at work in Iraq. Nevertheless, most of the pro-death faction here seem to have no interest in even considering the question. Both sides, in fact seem to be motivated by entirely subjective criteria, having neither seriously considered the subject, nor having prayed honestly about it.

I believe that despite the envenomed entries here, good Christians can differ about whether there are in fact alternatives to the death penalty that can prevent continuation of murderous behavior in a given case.

I do not, however, believe that men can differ and yet call themselves good Christians over whether human life is inherently valuable. Unless I misunderstand it, I think that this is the essence of the Vatican statement on the subject.

So much acrimony. So little actual thought.

PS In Russian, "peretz" means pepper, not "pretzel," which is "krendel'." Sometimes it's nice when people who don't know what they're talking about keep their mouths shut. But that seems rarely to happen on Belief.net.>

believe that despite the envenomed entries here, good Christians can differ about whether there are in fact alternatives to the death penalty that can prevent continuation of murderous behavior in a given case.

I do not, however, believe that men can differ and yet call themselves good Christians over whether human life is inherently valuable. Unless I misunderstand it, I think that this is the essence of the Vatican statement on the subject.

What he said.

Well put, Kevin. Thank you.

Diane>

Eric W: Am I correct in assuming that you are a Calvinist?

Re your invocation of Scripture: It proves nothing. Anyone can invoke (and twist) Scripture. That is why there are 30,000 squabbling denominations out there (and counting). Each one isolates its own proof-texts, ignores texts that undercut its interpretation, and twists texts to the snapping point in the service of pre-conceived ideas. IMHO, based on much Internet dialogue, Calvinist groups have honed such Scripture-twisting to a high art.

The Bible explicitly says that God desires the salvation of all men. Does that inevitably and necessarily mean that all end up saved? Of course not. There is that Free Will thing. As the Council of Orange emphasized (contra Augustine's too-extreme predestinarianiam), man can resist Grace. But that does not mean God writes the Grace-resistant one off. As long as the sinner has the breath of life, God pursues him with saving grace, always extending the offer and possibility of salvation. True, as the sinner sinks deeper into sin, as he keeps refusing Grace, he becomes more and more hardened. But God never gives up on him until the sinner draws the last breath, still defiant. Then and only then is his fate sealed. (Yes, I know, there are currents within classic Catholic theology that allow more room for a predestinarian view. But even the most predestinarian Thomists never ruled out human free will---or jumped to the unbiblical conclusion that sinners, still alive, are no longer the objects of God's love and solicitude. It was only with Calvin that the idea arose that the reprobate are "hated of God"--an idea found nowhere in the Bible.)

But enough of this amateur theologizing. Suffice it to say that you and I are on two different wavelengths. I believe the greatest attribute of God is His Mercy, which (in some mysterious way) outweighs even His perfect justice. If it didn't, He would scarcely have bothered redeeming us--and at such a cost!

The problem with Calvinists, IMHO, is that they don't own Crucifixes. All you have to do to learn what God is all about is gaze at a Crucifix.

(No, I don't mean that this exhausts the impenetrable mystery of God. It just tells you what you need to know.)

Diane>

" Elmo, the Christian's "freedom from the law" has to do solely with the OT's requirements for atonement and redemption before God, which demanded blood sacrifice. Christ fulfilled that aspect of the Mosaic Law but His fulfillment doesn't mean that the Mosaic Law has absolutely no value as a social or moral guide.

JD: You are arguing here against a point I did not make.

The big problem, as St. Paul saw it, was humanity's ability to fulfill every aspect of that law solely by himself.

JD: Hence, our need for a Savior.

The OT is just as divinely inspired as the NT, Elmo. As such, it reflects the moral mind of God just as much as the NT does. To assume otherwise is to assume that God is schizophrenic, much less to assume a heretical position. Jesus said that he came to fulfill the Law, not destroy it.

JD: Again, you are arguing against points that I never made. Jesus Christ's life, death and resurrection fulfills the Mosaic Law. This is what St. Paul wrote in Romans. Nobody is saying that we ignore the OT, in fact, as Christians, the Law should be inscribed in our hearts, but the fulfillment of this Law means exactly that: The price has been paid. The penalty satisfied. Christ did it for us. That's why I say that if you support capital punishment than you don't believe in the Resurrection, and if you don't believe that Christ bore our sins, you might as well be a pagan since what you do believe in is offering blood sacrifice. I say this since God, the Father is not demanding this sacrifice, having already offered and received it on our behalf through his son Jesus Christ, some other god or gods must be demanding this sacrifice. Making sacrifice on behalf of other gods is idolatry.>

Eric W, sorry that it has taken me so long to respond. Indeed, I believe that we humans are all the Lord's children and that it is His will that all should be saved. This is not to say that all shall be saved. It is possible that Sadaam will be doomed to Hell for all eternity. All I can say, is IT IS NOT FOR US TO SAY! To personally determine that there is one so evil that he is beyond God's redemption is blasphemy. The final disposition of all souls is for God and God alone. Should Sadaam have been executed--I am afraid that my answer is yes.

Joe D'H--Do not presume that I have not prayed for Sadaam's victims. That is unkind, and also untrue. I have prayed for all victims of evil, whether of those who are considered truly heinous persons, or those who have been misled. Please pray for me as well.>

"if you don't believe that Christ bore our sins, you might as well be a pagan since what you do believe in is offering blood sacrifice."

Excuse me? The Torah was written by pagans? I thought these were the people who revealed the One God to the world?>

Elmo, your revisionist theology doesn't mesh with the following from Genesis 9:5-6:

Murder is forbidden .Any person who murders must be killed. Yes, you must execute anyone who murders another person, for to kill a person is to kill a living being made in God s image (New Living Translation).

It also doesn't mesh with anything from the NT -- as, ironically enough, Sister Helen Prejean admitted in her book, Dead Man Walking:

It is abundantly clear that the Bible depicts murder as a capital crime for which death is considered the appropriate punishment, and one is hard pressed to find a biblical proof text in either the Hebrew Testament or the New Testament which unequivocally refutes this. Even Jesus admonition Let him without sin cast the first stone, when He was asked the appropriate punishment for an adulteress (John 8:7) the Mosaic Law prescribed death should be read in its proper context.

This passage is an entrapment story, which sought to show Jesus wisdom in besting His adversaries. It is not an ethical pronouncement about capital punishment.

Elmo, Saddam was a murderer. God demands that society execute murderers through due process. Ignoring or disregarding that command runs contrary to God's will.>

Eric w, I'm fighting fire with fire. Heck we've seen water doesn't seem to work.

If ya'll are going to throw scriptures and Biblical theory at Saddam's demise, then why can't I? I seem to have a better grasp on it.>

Eric, I love throwing stuff at Julie, mostly because she can take it and she's a great writer.

I look at Rod and Julie both like a wife getting ready for a night out. They come out parading their stuff and they want-need to know if it's okay.

I have a duty to protect their honor and reputation. Can you imagine what would happen if Rod put some of this stuff on the DMN editorial page?

We'd all be embarrassed.

Because we love him of course.......>

Current and upcoming missions to Mars hope to find some sign of past or present life in martian soil.