Saruman down South

As previously stated, I live in a very rural, conservative area, yet the county I live in leads our state in the number of Methamphetamine labs busted up.

Also, one county over, they had a rash of heroin overdoses, and come to find out the drug runners were using this area's roads to run the stuff to the bigger cities, figuring that the police here wouldn't be looking for those things.

So, yep, it's everywhere.>

Here's something interesting: there are Mexican laborers in town now. More and more of them. A local businessman said to me, "If you want to get anything done nowadays, you have to hire Mexicans." He explained that the black day laborers that people around here used to hire for agricultural or small-scale construction work aren't available anymore.

See, the main reason The South as "the South" survived so long because it was untouched by the vast wave of immigration in 1840-1920. As of 1910, there were more foreign born residents of Indiana or Iowa alone than in the entire ex-CSA outside Texas. Most of the US was at least 25% foreign-born or children of foreign born. The South, except for a few isolated bits (like the city of New Orleans proper, not Rod's West Feliciana) and the Rio Grande valley, was less than 5%.

But the current waves of migration and immigration are not sparing the South. Towns in Georgia are sprouting
Mexican neighborhoods. Gujaratis run most of the motels in Mississippi. In another hundred years, the CSA will
mean no more to the average resident of "the South" than the Congregational Church means to the typical resident
of New England today.

There may be a longer persistence of the idea of "the South" simply because so much has been written (and sung
and acted) about it. See Percy, O'Connor, and uh, Dreher. That too will become archaic, and meaningless, but I don't know how fast.

So in the end I think it has little to do with cutting down trees, or paving highways, or establishing Wal-Marts. Rod and other southerners just have to prepare themselves for the kind of transformation those of us from places north underwent generations ago, because of demographic inevitability.>

As for drugs, poverty, and the country, egads! It's still about drugs of choice. When Rod was a kid he lived in a kid's world. But the parents lived in a world where illicit drugs were everywhere and most of it was locally produced.

The same kinds of people who used to traffic in moonshine or illicit alcohol sales now deal in other drugs. The only thing different in Rod's world is his perspective of a parent versus a child.>

Harvey, you may valorize yourself your condescension, but you know nothing about the way life is and people are around here. You know how you wish they were. You know exactly nothing about how the black community, as a general matter, lives in this specific place, or the white community. Neither do I, though I know more than you do. And I know enough to want to listen to what people say, and weigh it against what I can see with my own eyes, and against what I know of the biases people around here have -- this, rather than impose the haughty judgments of someone sitting in suburban Dallas.

When I was a younger man, in college and right out of it, I judged everything people (white people) said about life in this place through the prism of race. Any negative judgment they made about black behavior I dismissed as evidence of their racism. As I got older, I realized that racism does inform the general white judgment of blacks, but it is not the only, nor the final, determinant. It happens to be true that crack cocaine's sale and use has, for whatever reason, entrenched itself in the black community here, and that unfortunate fact has social consequences. It is also the case that the black unemployment rate is much higher than the white unemployment rate, which informs the "won't work" judgment -- you have a significant number of employable black men here who are able to work, but who do not work. Some of these men sell drugs instead. If someone needs unskilled labor on a temporary basis, when I was a boy it was possible to hire a crew of black men who didn't have regular employment to come perform the labor. I am told now that those kinds of jobs, which used to be performed by black men a generation ago, are now performed by Mexican laborers, who are available and willing to do the work that local black men, for whatever reason, are not.

I don't know how valid this judgment is. But I know the people who are telling me this are a lot closer to the situation than either of us. I suggest that you would be better off not rushing to accuse people who bring you news or offer opinions that injure your conscience of racism. They might be racist, and their evaluation of the situation erroneous because of racism. They might be racist, and their evaluation of the situation correct despite their racism. Or they might be non-racist, and wrong for other reasons. Or they might be non-racist, and correct.

Any of these are plausible. Think about it, instead of jerking your knee and making prejudiced judgments about the South.>

Rod, I know of what I speak. When you were being born I was either finishing up my second tour of Nam and coming home or I was home already, twenty years old, old enough for war and too young to vote and legally drink.

When it comes to racism I can smell it a mile off. Sometimes when it's my own.

There's a distinct difference between American racism and the southern kind. I was born and raised in Arizona and California. There the N word is like damn in cussing. Here it's like the F word. There's that much difference.

Someday you need to borrow about seven hours of VHS tape material I have. It's interviews I made with members of the Eighteenth Field Artillery that survived World War 2 action.

Probably the most interesting part about this particular group was one man. He came out of OCS straight into the Eighteenth at Ft Sill. Small of stature and obviously privledged he caught the worst a shavetail could catch. His first sergeant was six foot five and meaner than a snake. When he was drunk he was meaner than a basket of snakes.

All the men will smile and tell you about his first day. Morning formation, he was introduced. The Bn Commander ordered up a horse for the new 2nd Lt. The men brought out for him the meanest and sorriest sorry son of a gun they had. He climbed on in front of God and the whole Battalion.

He rode him. The Battalion was stunned. They were just getting an idea of what they had.

Christmas of 1944 the men in his Battery all got a Christmas present from him. They'd been overrun by the Germans in the Battle of the Bulge and yet someway somehow their Captain had each and every man something for Christmas. They like to say it might have been just a Hershey Bar or a pack of Juicy Fruit, but it was the thought that counted.

After the War he became a thirty third degree Mason. One of this best friends was Carl Albert.

In about 1997 in conversation with the vets someone mentioned me serving with blacks in Nam.

The bravest man I've personally ever known was black. I like to point that out. Especially to bigot whites that never served. I met him in a hospital in Japan. We didn't know who he was until the cat got out of the bag and they awarded him a Silver Star for the action that put him in there with us. When his white squad leader took a hit and fell on the wrong side of the berm the black man laid down between the fire and his squad leader taking the bullets meant for him.

The man amongst men, leader of men into battle, great Mason, leader of the community, turned to me and with fire in his eyes let me know he could never have served with an N word. The venom was palatable. It hung in the air.

I've seen it time and again here in north Texas and west Louisiana. The racism goes deeper and has more mean spirit in it than I ever thought possible.

My cross to carry is I look like the ultimate red neck. That means when I'm with good old boys they think I'm one of them. They catch on real quick there's some creeks I won't wade with an idiot. It also means most blacks judge me first and are wary as heck of me.

Probably the hardest excerise I've had to do is rationalize ignorant racism abiding in the hearts of some of the dearest people on the face of the earth.

I'm about there, but it's still tough.>

Interesting stories, Harvey, but they have little or nothing to do with the points I made. I'm proud that you are working to overcome any racism you might have. We all should. But you have not made moral progress when you substitute one form of prejudice with another.>

Actually, all Chinese people are indeed intelligent and hard-working. Anyone who does not know this is a racist.>

Interesting stories, Harvey, but they have little or nothing to do with the points I made. I'm proud that you are working to overcome any racism you might have. We all should. But you have not made moral progress when you substitute one form of prejudice with another.
Rod Dreher

Ahhh Rod, I'm not only helping myself, I'm trying to help others.

One of the my favorite tactics is to use "African American" a couple of minutes after someone has used the N word.

The effect is interesing to say the least. Most of the time there's this silence not unlike someone slipped and used the F word at dinner in front of grandma. They know they screwed up and used a profanity because I highlighted it with a term of respect.

One of the catch words that racists use is "diversity" now. I hear it every now and then in Wylie. Wylie is getting too much "diversity" so people are talking about moving out further so they can raise their kids amongst their own kind.

Another tecnique I favor is to reframe a term. When someone refers to the blacks in south Dallas and the property conditions there I love to point out it's so much like the trailer zoned places in the country. Same trash in the yards, same cars and appliances on the lawn, same disposable plastic Walmarty toys all over the place.

Or when they mention Jesse Jackson and you can feel the venom drip off of of the J's. I always innocently ask if they're referring to that black preacher whose done some civil right stuff.

I'll tell you what you need to do Rod, you need to take a day and ride with me and I'll give you a tour. You'll feel right at home, country to the bone.>

how about a little southern history for you?

The reason for the Civil War was racism.

Actually I'm waiting for Rod to come back with something to show he's really gone over the paleo bend. Something like an "oh no, the war wasn't about black slavery. It was about [tariffs/states' rights/federal encroachment/southern nationalism/whatever the neo-confederate smokescreen du jour is].

Before long I expect he'll be like his, ahem, confederate Larison and start to call it "the War of Northern Aggression" or "Lincoln's War"...>

Harvey,

I'm not a southerner, so maybe I didn't have any relatives pushing any Lost Cause/moonlight and magnolias mystical crap in my formative years that I have had to overcome.

I'm a conservative, though. Of midwestern roots. And as a conservative I see no reason at all for any institution, especially one like UT which receives millions in federal funding, to honor someone who committed treason and waged war on the United States (Davis) or who compounded the same crime by being an officer in the US Army who resigned his commission in order to fight against the establishment that had educated him, paid his wages, and which he had sworn to protect (Lee). To say nothing of the whole conspiracy having been to preserve human slavery.>

I am told now that those kinds of jobs, which used to be performed by black men a generation ago, are now performed by Mexican laborers, who are available and willing to do the work that local black men, for whatever reason, are not. - Rod

I love how African-American citizens (of which I am one) are being equated here with Mexicans who may in fact not be all Mexican but rather Hispanic/Latino of various nationalities and quite possibly illegal immigrants and whether or not they will or will not work in the same jobs that their fathers, grandfathers, and the sharecroppers of old did. Again when the discussion of the greater participation of Blacks in everyday social life and integration btw the great divide of Anglo-European and African-American life rears its ugly head it most always involves what Blacks should be doing and while this is of course of supreme importance issues of economic disparity are never actually discussed in terms of what we should be doing to lift up all of us. Blacks are expected to and exist in the same relative status as old with a small elite allowed to rise and the rest relegated to work that as previously mentioned Whites won t do either, and having lived in the South all my life (still do) I can tell you the amount of poor Whites is of just as much importance as any Black.
On the issue of the environment and progress Harvey Lacey is correct whether this person lives in the South or not. Someone doesn t always have to directly experience something to be acutely aware of a situation and the South has always faced this problem. I love the South as an idea for one basic reason: the variety and preserved beauty of the environment. Now some may laugh or gawk but regardless of its racism, economic disparity (sometimes it makes the Ancien R gime look egalitarian when comparing through a modern lens), and intolerance due to na ve religious interpretations and fundamentalism the South has always maintained a beautiful environment and culture of preservation in regards to art, architecture, and outdoors. Personally my grandfather and some other members of my family like my uncle own a pretty sizeable amount of land in rural Georgia outside of a small city called Brunswick about an hour north of Savannah, where I lived before moving to Memphis and I will do everything in my power to preserve nature s beauty should any situation like this one appear. The South is not an isolated situation but is only one aspect of a country that has no sense of sustainable development, environmental stewardship, and care for others.
Blacks, Mexicans, and poor Whites are not the problem, or their unwillingness to work , but instead the lack of educational and work opportunities that cause a young, healthy Black kid with promise to resort to selling drugs in order to make a living, or the ridiculous lack of development and corruption that the State department and several administrations pretend don t exist in Latin America that causes illegal immigration that is now a huge socio-economic and socio-cultural problem in Europe and N. America or the complete taking advantage of, for power poor, rural Whites (think Bob Corker and the Rep. Party s ploy to grasp rural Tennessee), and their cultural rejection and dismissal by richer Whites. How about Crunchy Cons esp. Orthodox ones with that Church s incredible sense of community and purpose over indulgent individuality addressing these issues over lamentations that don t even need be if more people demand change and prioritize over scary secularists who want to take Christmas away? Who knows then maybe the country would return back to a more Christian lifestyle and liberals would actually believe in Jesus if they were actually carried out.>

Notice how instead of addressing any problems with a greater community that shows little to no care for its Black and Brown (and poor White) neighbors or its environment the points that have been made here follow along the lines of blame the Other and ignore the issues that can bring real change and stop exactly what Rod so decries.>

I share your sadness, Rod, at the "progress" so many communities in this country are experiencing. Even in the Miami suburb where I grew up (not too long ago...I'm 34), there used to be a huge field behind our house where my sister would run freely and play. Our neighbor used to hit golf balls out in the field and pay my sister and me 25 cents each to retrieve them. We thought we were rich. :-) It was really fun for us and great exercise. Sadly, it's all built up now.

Regarding the Mexican laborers. I'm wondering if they're being paid a living wage. I was just thinking that if the Mexican laborers are working for a few dollars a day, the business owners are not going to want to pay the black workers more for the same job.>

I know Rod doesn't live in a racist world. There's so much God in it there's little room for anything else.

My latest exposure to racism was the earlier mentioned Xmas Eve comment by my 93 year old gal friend. It's the position that there's work for Blacks and they won't do it. So we have to import Mexicans if we want to get it done.

A month or so ago I found out a family friend was working part time. I asked her why. She said "wants". They want things and to get them she needs the extra job. Her son worked with me on their place. He's a great kid, loves the kind of work I do. I asked about him.

When the conversation turned to the kids she mentioned that there was too much diversity in Wylie. They were wanting to move further out because the Blacks at the high school were causing problems.

I accused her of being a racist. She swore she wasn't. She just didn't like her kids being raised with Blacks. Of course Wylie School Board didn't understand the problem when they deleted MLK from the holiday schedule. It was much ado about nothing when it hit the national news.

A friend of mine works where a majority of the employees are Black. I was asked why the Blacks ate more while contributing less to the pot lunches they have occasionally. Was it a culture thing?

I pointed out my friends racism. The only behavior they noticed was a bad behavior and it was done by Blacks. But then the majority of the employees are Black so most of those participating were Black and behaved properly.

I bought my truck and have all the service done at Steakly-Bangston Chevrolet on Northwest HWY. I couldn't get my plates until the custom bed I'd made for the truck had been installed. This was four years ago.

As I was waiting for the inspector to arrive at work an old white employee walked by. We nodded to each other, old folks do that. He asked if I was waiting for an inspection. I said I was. He informed me the N word that did that never showed up at work on time.

I went to the General Managers office. I relayed the conversation and explained that he had a real problem. He said he'd handle it.

Over the years I've seen the offending employee a couple of times. Our relationship isn't what it could have been.>

Regarding the Mexican laborers. I'm wondering if they're being paid a living wage. I was just thinking that if the Mexican laborers are working for a few dollars a day, the business owners are not going to want to pay the black workers more for the same job.
Jenny

Actually if you go to a labor center for casual laborers you will find no one leaves the place for the minimum wage. The minimum in the Dallas area is eight dollars per hour cash with the employer expected to provide lunch. Full time employment can be had for less per hour but not much less.

If you're looking for skilled labor, say a mason or a framer, you're going to have to pay more, again, that's cash.

What most people don't realize is all races and most genders are available at the labor centers. There are a couple of games being played there. One of them is Chicanos (Hispanic Americans) with regular jobs who do casual labor for cash to supplement their income. They'll pretend to be illegal to get work. A lot of employers only want non-english-speaking-probably-illegals because of their allegedly better work ethic.

The way it works is you arrive at the labor center. There's usually a coordinator with a clipboard. The clipboard will have the names of those signed in and their skills or work preference.

But as you pull up there will be lots of attempts to get your attention. Everything from hoots and yells to stares and promising looks. Their livilihood depends upon being chosen for work.

The predators upon the laborers I've found can be divided into two camps. Amongst the illegals their greatest threat is the labor contractors who share ethnicity and extort a high price for providing work. The other predator that I've observed is the racist who works the workers hard and attempts to deprive them of the their wages.

I personally prefer the labor pool system because most of my work I do myself. Occasionally I'll need some help and family and friends won't be available. Casual labor satifies my needs without incurring the cost of employees which I don't want and or need.

I'm a big time advocate of opening the borders and enabling the flow to go both ways. I mean what snowbird would stay in Yuma AZ when they could go south a couple of hours and be in paradise?

The vast majority of the illegals don't want to live and raise their families here. They want to come and work and then go home and enjoy the fruits of their labor.>

I think that "A Non-Progressive" is really Donny. After all, he is going to have to change his name once-in-a-while so someone will read his garbage. I don't even have to get to his name because I can recognize him in one sentence.

Rod, the only thing I can say is that the world does change and you can look at the change for good or for bad.

As far as the black community portion of the article - you had to know that someone was going to pick up on the black & Mexican comparison. I think you are a little too hot under the collar with Harvey. Is he not allowed to respond? After all he lives in TX, and what is with the crack that you know more people than him? Interesting.......

By the way, crack is everywhere my friend. Not just in black communities.

I too would like to know if they pay the Mexican's what they would pay a white southern gentleman?>

Notice how instead of addressing any problems with a greater community that shows little to no care for its Black and Brown (and poor White) neighbors or its environment the points that have been made here follow along the lines of blame the Other and ignore the issues that can bring real change and stop exactly what Rod so decries.

It is fascinating how so many people who have no idea what conditions are actually like in this place, who are absolutely certain that they know exactly what things are like, and what motivates people. One remark I reported from someone who actually lives here, about how life is changing here post-Katrina and otherwise, brings forth a host of moralizing and self-valorization. It's enough to make one want to play "Sweet Home Alabama" at Volume 11.

When I was in college and in my twenties, I was prepared to make these sweeping critical judgments about this place. But the older I got, the more complicated life became, and it was difficult to find simple villains or simple heroes on any side. It's easy, I guess, to find simple villains and simple heroes if you live far away. And if you have a chip on your shoulder about the South.>

But the older I got, the more complicated life became, and it was difficult to find simple villains or simple heroes on any side. Rod Dreher

Ah yes, I think I just had the "life's complicated" discussion with Ave on Christianity.

Isn't it amazing how complicated life gets when your dawg is in the fight?

This is not unlike trying to get the local Muslim community to disavow Islam.

The complication comes in both instances, Rod's embracing southern gentility and Ave's embracing Christianity, when you want it both ways.

Both ways is a bear of a road to travel.>

"But what I want to know is, what if what Rod's friend said is just the bare truth? Instead of saying that only a racist would make such a statement (day laborers now are mostly Mexican where they used to be predominantly black), why don't we ask why that might be the case?"

That's basically what I was asking about. I wasn't thinking that he was racist....just wondering why the situation was the way it was.>

Instead of saying that only a racist would make such a statement (day laborers now are mostly Mexican where they used to be predominantly black), why don't we ask why that might be the case? Maybe it's because day-laborers tend to be desperate for any job they can get, even physically demanding labor for very low wages, and the black community is by-and-large past that point? That would be a good thing, wouldn't it?


I would agree with you HB, had the discussion not been followed by pointing the finger at crack.

It is entirely possible that both upward mobility due to increased opportunity *and* lowered expectations due to rampant drug abuse contribute to the change in the demographic make-up of the day laborer population.

That Rod's friend (and he) pointed out the one and not the other may have something to do with the ubiquity of racism in the Capital-S South. It's just more common to hear folks talking about the bad stuff the "colored kids" get into than the good, you know?

I'm not "calling" Rod and his friend racists. I don't need to. We who grew up in the South have lived with racism all our lives. It's like the humidity - it's there, and we know it, and no one really needs to talk about it.>

I would agree with you HB, had the discussion not been followed by pointing the finger at crack.

You're right, and I wrongly ignored that part.

HB>

Rod, if you really want to weep, take a drive sometime to southern West Virginia or northern Kentucky and witness the results of 'mountain-top removal mining.' There are hundreds of thousands of acres of formerly green hills and mountain lands that the collusion of the state and federal governments and the coal companies have turned into dead landscapes that look like the moon.
Nice Marmot

He can see all the destruction his little ole heart can take by just visiting East Texas or Western Louisiana. They'll make the biggest mess you ever laid eyes on for pulp lumber.

Yup, pulp lumber. Literally hundreds of years worth of living going into the mulcher for paper etc.

It's absolutely one of the most heartbreaking sights you'll ever see. They go after the pine and leave the oak etc to rot in place.

Everytime we go visit the cajun side of the family we see new damage. Like I said, it's heartbreaking.>

Hmmmmmmm......interesting, veddy veddy interesting......

As a Conservative, I've grown to be fairly sympathetic to the Confederacy on almost every issue EXCEPT slavery.
Nice Marmot

You belong to the Cheney-Bush school of conservatism I take it?

The Confederacy is the perfect example of what happens when greed tramples on common sense when it comes to business.

The slave states had two impending disasters bearing down on them prior to the Civil War. Both of these disasters were of their own making.

The first was the slaves. Keep in mind it was the southern states who suggested the stopping of the importing of slaves into the United States. The slaves were mulitplying like mad, faster than their masters and the non-slave owning citizens even.

They were facing a collapse of their economy because the bottom was getting ready to fall out on their number one source of paper wealth, the value of their slaves.

The second impending disaster was the land. They had foolishly destroyed the land by removing all the nutrients with successive crops of cotton. The land was going south (pun intended) faster than they could replace it.

Their problem with the north wasn't the slaves they owned. It was that the north wouldn't allow the slaves to leave the south as slaves.

So you had a situation where mismanagement of resources, slaves and the land, compounded the lack of vision for future markets and commerce.

At the time of the Civil War the south only had one thing and it was a false economy. Their only asset was the slaves. The land was almost worthless for what it was needed, growing cotton. They had nothing else because they hadn't thought that their goose laying the golden eggs would ever stop it's magic.

So I really would like to have you explain just what part of the Confederacy, excepting slavery of course, that you find so attractive. Is it the poor management of assets? How about the lack of vision? Maybe the pompous arrogance got your fancy?>

It is also the case that the black unemployment rate is much higher than the white unemployment rate, which informs the "won't work" judgment ...

Actually, no. You clearly have no idea what the unemployment rate measures. It mostly certainly isn't "won't work," which is measured by other series.

Which leaves you with an uninformed judgment & an unexamined heart.>

KH, thank you for your comment.

One of the things that I hear often is a comparison of the Vietnamese who have came here, worked hard, and got ahead versus the attitude that seems to best expressed by southern African Americans, won't work, won't try.

If we think about it more than a minute there seems to be an obvious explanation why that appears to be a reality in America.

The Vietnamese come here believing in the American dream, if you work hard you will succeed. The southern African American on the other hand is given another American dream. They're told from the get go that they can't beat the system. They're taught from the beginning by other African Americans and the White Americans in their community that they have a place. It might be at the table but it will never be at the head of the table.

Rod happened to push one of my buttons with his quaint little expression of southern racism. One of the things that bothers me most is the story I heard back in the middle eighties. It was about a poor black man in a southern town that was the local never do well. He was the source of jokes and he survived on handouts etc.

Then one day a man from up north came into town looking for the man. You see, that never do well had saved his life in Nam in combat. He'd had a good life and felt he owed it to the black man and wanted to thank him.

That story haunts me. I remember that black guy in the hospital who sat down with me one day and explained how he'd became a hero.

He blamed it on luck. The first Bronze Star was awarded for his being so deadly with his M79 Grenade launcher. A patrol was pinned down in the tree line just beyond the range of the M79. Charlie was coming close and the guys needed cover. He kept trying different techniques with the M79 and finally found the right position where the grenades landed on the enemy. He was credited with saving the patrol

He laughed and told me he was as surprised as anyone when they awarded him the medal. After all, to be honest he'd told me, it wasn't heroism, it was just doing his job.

Then he got the second Bronze Star, actually a cluster for the first. I can't recall the details but he explained it away again not as heroism but just doing what he'd been trained to do.

The reason he was in the hospital with us was they were walking a berm when Charlie opened up from the tree line with a machine gun. His squad leader took a hit and fell on the enemy side of the berm. Instinctively he dove over and put his body between his squad leader and the incoming fire. Those hits put him in there with us.

So when someone uses the N word or shows disrespect for Blacks an image comes to mind. It's of that soldier in Camp Zama Japan with me. The bravest man I've ever personally known was an African American who exposed himself to machine gun fire to protect his white squad leader.

I wonder what he's doing now and if he's had a good life. I also wonder what kind of life the squad leader has had too though I never met him. And I wonder about that story I heard in the eighties and if it was them.

So yeah, Rod pushed a button. Maybe I look the fool. But it would be criminal if one of our finest came home from Iraq or Afghanistan after fighting for our country and had to face the same bigotry that African American soldiers have faced after other wars in the south.

The only way to stop it is to talk about it and point out how wrong it is and was. It's part of a legacy that can't be polished away with childish visions of grey glory that never existed.>

harvey
You did call Buffett a racist.

Buffett is a racist, even worse a eugenicist racist.

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/crunchycon/8660889161462628371/#61621

And that's kind of the point. You've probably thown the word around so much and for so long that you don't even remember who you did and didn't call a racist. It's a word with which to bully those with whom you disagree.

You said: As for that 145 year old letter of seccession. It defines the Texas Confederacy for what it is.

Well what's your point? You kept bringing it up in the context of the current fuss over statues at UT. You failed to mention that they are of Confederate and Union leaders and have been there for over 80 years. The controversy is over whether to pull down the Confederate statues. There aren't any roving bands of Lost Causers putting up new monuments to Dixie, at least that I've seen. You bring it up because it is a powerful bludgeon, especially used against a Southerner.

I'm partially with you on "Rod hammering the Muslims" as you put it, but mostly because I believe the Muslim threat is vastly overblown. I think there's too much alarmism in general and that is just one variety. But you ascribe his views to racism and I don't. That seems to be your default argument. You disagree with Rod, so he is a racist. You disagree with me, so I am a racist. A friend asks a distasteful question, so that friend is a racist. How convenient. God forbid you might have to seriously debate something.

And as for my immigration views, I can assure you of one thing. The fastest way to become a hardliner on illegal immigration is to become a legal immigrant, or marry one.>

Well, you weren't directly quoting anybody with your "Buffett is a racist" statement, and the rest of your post was pretty confusing as to how you felt. But if you say that's what you meant then I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Funny though, you won't extend that same benefit to anybody. For example, you said:

The current hullaboo about illegal immigration is all about people of brown color. That's racism.

You see racism everywhere so you can't imagine that there is any objection to illegal immigration other than racism. As far as you are concerned that has to be the only reason anyone could criticize our current immigration policy. Let me offer a few others.

My best friend had to leave the country last year. His work visa was going to expire and he couldn't get another renewal. So he left. I had to back away from an overseas job opportunity because it would have endangered my wife's green card. If she leaves the country for an extended period they could revoke it and refuse her entry. She finally got her fingerprint appointment for citizenship a couple of months ago. They told her it could be up to 3 years before she gets called for the next step. Her family spent many years and many many thousands of dollars just to come here. Both my wife and my friend are very critical of our current immigration policy. They have actually dealt with INS/CIS. They've played by the rules. Tell them the current system is fair. Tell them that those who play by the rules should get deported and those who don't can stay. But you won't do that. You'll just say they hate brown people.

What about economics? My family is mostly poor working class. Their wages have been flat for a decade. The chief economic columnists for both the New York Times and Washington Post say that mass immigration has depressed low end wages. They must be closet racists. The Professor of Economics and Social Policy at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government has studied the issue in depth. He says mass illegal immigration is hurting the working poor in this country. He must hate brown people too.

What you are doing is bullying people into silence for opinions you don't like. 'Racist' is a very powerful word and you throw it around lightly. Peoples careers, businesses, and lives can be wrecked by charges of racism. Truth doesn't matter, so long as we purge unclean thoughts. But I don't see calling someone a racist today as that much different than calling someone a commie in 1955. Maybe they were a communist, maybe they weren't. The same with all the 'racists' you see everywhere.

You're a 21st century red baiter. Hope you are proud of it. Maybe history will be kinder to your ilk than they were McCarthy and his pals.>

The main areas where I'm in sympathy are: the resistance to centralization of money and power, both in business and in government; the resistance to the concentration of power in a large Federal government that trumps the rights of local governments; government greasing the skids for big business with tariffs, subsidies, etc.; the South's idea of honor and chivalry over against the Northern commercial/business emphasis; the idea of a land-based economy.; etc., etc.

My word. The Confederacy as a proto-libertarian archetype, mixed with romantic ideals of "honor and chivalry", for flavor. God, that's adorable.>

Read some of the more balanced literature, avoiding both the Northern liberal do-gooder defenses and the Southern 'Lost Cause' material. To start, I'd recommend Robert Penn Warren's little book THE LEGACY OF THE CIVIL WAR, which is very balanced. He hammers the South when necessary, and also isn't afraid to stick a long-needed pin in the North's big self-congratulatory balloon.
Nice Marmot

Help us out here. Don't force us to read the book. After all the way Rod's going this thread will off the screen by Thursday. He's on a roll.

Give us some specific examples of redeeming qualities of the Confederacy. Keep in mind jerks like myself will be weighing your pluses against the overall evil we see as the Confederacy itself.>

"The problem with this controversy is it's browness."

No, that just happens to be the current skin color involved. There have been equal uproars about even legal immigrants in past U.S. history -- think of the Irish or the Eastern Europeans. Last time I checked they were whites. And what do you say about all those Mexicans that are here legally who are decrying illegal immigration? No Harvey, it's got a lot more to do with economics than it does with skin color.>

Evening Ted, glad you decided to join us.

Harvey, you're a pain in the butt. Truth is, whether you admit it or not, push come to shove, we side with our own "kind". And that is a direct quote from one of my students from south central Los Angeles. Truer words were never spoken. If you look at prison populations, or even schools, people hang with the people who look like themselves. This is not to say that we don't befriend or even intermarry...but under stress watch what happens. Ted Franks

You're right of course. I can be a pain in the butt. I mean thirty five months, twenty days and fourteen hours in the United States Army and never in trouble, and I was never once give a re-enlistment speech. There was a couple of times when officers and non-commissioned officers got a little vocal about my independent streak, but heck, they were lifers, that's followers with two F's.

You're also right about push coming to shove. When it comes down to it we take the obvious path of least resistance. The best analogy I can come up with to prove your point is peeing in our pants.

If the only option available is peeing in our pants we'll do it. But there are lots of reasons why we don't. There's the obvious one about the personal discomfort that a good rash brings for our waste haste.

Almost as strong a reason for not doing it is shame. It's just not what adults do if you know what I mean. It reflects ignorance and immaturity plus a severe lack of class.

So you're right, acting in a racist manner is a lot like peeing in our pants. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Blacks say that both MJ and OJ were innocent, and whites predictably say guilty.
We're ALL racist, to a certain extent, especially the FOS progressives who pretend to be perfect.
The things said in Rod's hometown were just facts regarding changes in the community.
Blacks HAVE lost work due to Hispanic immigration. That's an absolute fact. Stating the obvious makes one a racist? Well...
Ted Franks

Hmmmm, saying all Blacks say OJ and MJ are not guilty is not unlike saying all Christians believe Bush is God's man in the White House for this time.

Some Christians believe that. Some of the evangelicals will jump in your face and declare it. But a lot of the Christians think Bush is a failure as a President and doesn't reflect their concept of Christianity at all.

Blacks haven't lost work ethic due to Mexican labor being available. If, and I use that if conditionally, there is a difference in Black work ethic today it's for the very same reasons there's a change in the White work ethic, again, if there is a change in work ethic at all.

Look at why you don't see many Whites at the labor centers for day labor. They don't need it. They can get paid more for doing less and only a fool would do anything different.

When the Mexicans have more opportunities for work they will follow the pattern of other races here in the United States. They will go for the jobs with the bigger bucks and less effort.

And just out of curiosity I have to ask, what does FOS mean. I know what POS means. It's a statement about the driver of a car that has one of those little oval Bush-04 stickers.>

First of all, here's the W.E.B. DuBois quote I mentioned above, because it's pertinent: "It is a hard thing to live haunted by the ghost of an untrue dream; to see the wide vision of empire fade into real ashes and dirt; to feel the pang of the conquered, and yet to know that with all the Bad that fell on one black day, something was vanquished that deserved to live, something killed that in justice had not dared to die; to know that with the Right that triumphed, triumphed something of Wrong, something sordid and mean, something less than the broadest and best."

Sounds like romantic nostalgia to me. Nothing wrong with that, but it's no substitute for reality.>

Nick J. -- do you know who DuBois was? I doubt if anyone would consider him a 'romantic nostalgist' about the South!

Harvey said: "Even if we remove slavery from the table we're still left with abuse of the land resistance towards modernization in a world that was rapidly changing all around them."

While I'd never defend the abuse of the land, it can be argued that one reason for it was the economic pressure exerted by the North. The tariffs that protected Northern businesses and industries hurt the South severely, and the latter felt that it had no option but to keep the cotton coming in order to maintain some level of economic viability. While it wasn't smart, and demonstrated shortsightedness, I don't believe you can call it evil under the circumstances.

And what is so bad about resistance to modernization if you feel that it is bringing with it just as much bad as good? "Progress" is always a trade-off, never an unalloyed good. Newer does not always equal better.


"Invariably the conflict between states rights and the federal Constitution involved violations of the rights of citizens."

And now, because we've abandoned all appeal to states rights, we have a giant Leviathan Federal government with its bureaucratic tentacles hooked into almost every possible area of life. The founders, even the Hamiltonians, I daresay, would be appalled.

"I can't see where we can find something beyond romantic fantasy miles from reality as redeemable about the Confederacy."

Do yourself a favor; read Warren's little book (an essay in book form, actually) and see if you find any romantic fantasy there. And there are numerous works that make similar arguments, many of them by Northerners, and Southerners who are in no way "Lost Causers." I'm not basing my views entirely on Warren; I've read over a dozen books on this issue over the past couple years.>

"And just because he said there were good things in the Confederacy that were lost due to the war doesn't make it so. Trying to make an Appeal to Authority is weak souce, NM. Do better."

Wasn't an appeal to authority; it was, as I said, a pertinent quote. If even a black civil rights activist can see that some good things were lost, the claim probably bears some investigation. (BTW, Dubois was active in the civil rights mvmt up through the early 1960's, so he wasn't strictly a 'late 19th century author'.)

As for the 'do better,' I'm not going to do your homework for you. I've already mentioned several things above. If you choose to paint them as romantic nostalgia that's up to you, but there's no way for a person accused of such to defend himself from that charge when he's simply gainsaid at each claim. As I said there's loads of material out there on this subject, but the issue of slavery, being such an emotionally-charged subject (and to an extent, rightly so) has clouded the ability of many folks to recognize the other important issues of that era.>

I don't have to "prove" anything, and wasn't trying to, but rather making the point that an alternative view is possible and bears investigation. You don't want to do the investigating? Not my problem.>