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The main counsel I give anybody coming in to the Church is that "faith" means "you stay." The Catholic Church is and always has been the vessel of salvation for the *world*. That means that most of the people you meet are going to be *ordinary*--like you and me. They are going to have the ordinary tastes, prejudices, mediocrities, failures, and virtues of their time and place. There are, to be sure, great heros and extraordinary people in the Catholic communion. But to expect that as the norm and then be outraged and disappointed when it is not is, I think, great folly and, in the end, great pride. One of the things I came to appreciate very early was the counsel of Uncle Screwtape, who urges Wormwood to keep far from his "patient's" mind the thought, "If I, being what I am, can consider myself in some sense a Christian, then why can't these people next to me in the pew"?
I appreciate Mark's words, but I wonder -- and I'm not asking this to be antagonistic in any way, I'm just thinking speculatively -- how far one can take this. The poor faithful Episcopalians who are having to endure the decline of their church into absurdity -- to what extent should "you stay" guide them? To be sure, Anglicanism doesn't make the same claim of exclusivity for itself that the Roman church does (or Orthodox churches do), so the hold on individual believers is weaker. Is there a point, however, in any given church (Catholic, Orthodox, whatever) when to remain in place is in some real sense to risk losing Christ oneself?
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Bugg, I, sincerely, apologize for the times that I've denigrated the Eucharist. I say to stop putting Christ into your little man-made boxes(or wafers) and go inside of yourself and find Him. That wasn't nice. I know that, in my case, it has nothing to do with jealousy. Things that Catholics say about the Eucharist make me mad. I remember, when Rod announced his conversion, he said something like(paraphrasing), "It's not like I became an Evangelical. I'm still with a tradition that has a valid Eucharist." I don't really get mad, but I roll my eyes. I can appreciate that Catholics believe the Eucharist to be very important because I know how important taking the bread and wine has always been to me. Even if what Catholics say is true-that Christ is present in the Eucharist and isn't present in the bread, I have always experienced a peace when taking the bread and wine. So, in my case, it has little(perhaps nothing) to do with the Eucharist, and is a hostile reaction to the disrespect that my bread has received. I know that Protestants can be very disrespectful of Catholicism, and I'm sure that you can give me tons of examples that you've experienced. What Christine said is true. We don't get it. The thing about it is that I don't think that Jesus was being literal when he said those words. But, then again, I don't think that Luke or John were being literal when they wrote a good part of their gospel. That's not a Protestant thing, but it's the main reason why I stopped calling myself a Christian. I liked how you ended this thread. It was a good ending.
Well put, Bugg.
I like Orthodox Bishop Kallistos Ware statement that we can't say that God isn't working with people in whatever denomination or religion they're affiliated with right now. Even though I'm a Byzantine Catholic catechumen and I know that is where I belong and where I will grow into Christ, the two saints in this world that I've met were both Protestants. And God is definitely in and with them.They demonstrate in speech and action. My point is that we get so used to the way our faith or denomination sees the world that we assume everything else is invalid and untrue. Perhaps for you it is but not for everyone.It is not for us to judge another faith or denomination. It isn't. There are saints and holy people in every denomination and faith. God determines the best place for us to grow into his likeness and image, and not man.Even in our congregations and parishes,shoot, even in our own families, few of us really know what is taking place in one another's hearts as far as their spiritual growth. They may believe with all their heart and soul,be obedient to the teachings, know their faith inside out, attend all the services, etc. and haven't grown an inch spiritually in 15 years, but by God they are (fill in the blank) through and through.Maybe they aren't making an effort but then again maybe it isn't the place for them to best draw nearer to God.How can we presume to know that of strangers ? anon
I just can't see how trusting a human institution AS IF it were a divine institution, is anything but worldy and carnal. Especially since human institutions (including churches) tend to gratify the flesh and corruption in various ways. One group pats itself on the back for one thing, the other pats itself on the back for the opposite. Take your pick, same deal. A church that gets in the way of law enforcement re: the issue of sexual abuse, a church that rationalized torture of heretics, is just a human institution. The blessing of the Body of Christ is upon something ELSE within PEOPLE who may or may not go to that church. Similarly, a church that thinks one party or other in America is God's party, a church that thinks one nation or other has God's approval (right or wrong) as long as their favorite candidates are in office, is corrupt. Similarly, a church that has no spiritual substance or no passion about anything challenging, spiritual, meaningful, is just a club of people doing worldly thing. Left right or center, Catholic or Protestant or some other religion, this is what I see. Ecclesia, the greek word translated 'church', goes back to the idea of the town assembly of Athens and the market square: a noisy ASSEMBY of people working together with a common sense of having that bond of the assembly, a clamor of people with a desire to make things better, or sometimes just to prop up themselves and their own buddies. If the Ecclesia is to be blessed and divinely guided, the Ecclesia needs to ACT more like it is looking towards the spirit instead of being worldly/fleshly, corrupt, political, arrogant, and power-hungry. All congregations are faced with these challenges. Faith means having a hope and a trust in allowing Christ's spirit to guide oneself and all one associates with, all one might assemble with as spiritual brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ.
"The Catholic Church is and always has been the vessel of salvation for the *world*." GUFFAAWWWWW!!!!!
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