Church scandal
Friday March 30, 2007
While my own church continues to endure a serious financial scandal, I see that Julie "Bible Girl" Lyons is writing this week about grave problems within her religious tradition, Pentecostalism. Powerful stuff, as usual. Lord have mercy, but the lady...
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About Crunchy Con
Rod Dreher is an editorial columnist for the Dallas Morning News, and author of "Crunchy Cons" (Crown Forum), a nonfiction book about conservatives, most of them religious, whose faith and political convictions sometimes put them at odds with mainstream conservatives. The views expressed in this blog are his own.
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Rod: You are only disappointed if you expect that someone with the title of Priest or Reverend is some how more spiritual. Why do we continue to place these men in these untenable positions? Looking to the hierarchy is a false faith. They can't help but to fall and we will be disappointed. Jesus is our only Priest and King and we will trust in no man.
I think that's right, lilian. Given that we need leadership - human beings without leadership tend to just mill around - could we be more realistic about it? Priests are not some different species of human being, whatever the official fiction might be; they are subject to the same failings as the rest of us. Same of course for the leaders of Protestant bodies.
"Avoid the title 'Teacher.' One is Teacher; the rest of you are learners."
"For this reason it is fitting for you to run together in harmony with the mind of the bishop, which is exactly what you are doing. For your presbytery, which is both worthy of the name and worthy of God, is attuned to the bishop as strings to the lyre. Therefore Jesus Christ is sung in your harmony and symphonic love. And each of you should join the chorus, that by being symphonic in your harmony, taking up God's pitch in unison, you may sing in one voice through Jesus Christ to the Father, that he may both hear and recognize you through the things you do well, since you are members of his Son. Therefore it is useful for you to be in flawless unison, that you may partake of God at all times as well." (St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Ephesians, chap. 4) Point being--clergy and laity need each other in order to function, and both of them need Christ in order to be able to function with each other. When this is missed, problems occur--prosaic as that may be, it seems easy to forget. Richard
With respect, I think lillian is quite wrong. We are right to expect our spiritual leaders -- priests, pastors, rabbis, imams -- to be especially "spiritual." It is their vocation to be spiritual leaders, and therefore in some sense more spiritually advanced. That's the ideal. The mistake comes in thinking that they are somehow less human, or thinking that the title automatically confers wisdom and holiness.
I went to the Dallas Observer blog site to read the article by Julie Lyons, which you mentioned, and when her blog came up, behold, there was also a big advertisement at the top of the page for "Hedonism Resorts" (where clothing is optional and "uninhibited" is the word for today). The advertisement is probably one of many that are randomly selected by the Dallas Observer's web server. Ironic, isn't it.
"Hedonism Resorts" Ironic, isn't it. Yes, considering that this devout and articulate Bible Girl writer is the Observer's Editor in Chief.
Trust me. The ads you saw on the Observer Blog are tame. Sometimes I have to divorce myself from the juxtaposition, because some terrific work is published by her paper. But it's hard in private to not sometimes think it's like she is running a brothel while advocating safe sex. But then, now that I think about it, what's wrong with that?
The OCA scandal is profoundly disturbing. Perhaps the best medicine is to immerse ourselves in the coming Week... As I've been preparing for the various services, these verses in particular (from the Vesperal Liturgy for Great and Holy Thursday) were most striking: Truly Judas is descended from those vipers Who ate manna in the wilderness Yet murmured against him who nourished them For while the food was still in their mouths, Those ungrateful men reviled God. So too this godless man, While still bearing in his mouth the heavenly bread, Contrived the betrayal of the Savior. What greedy purpose! What inhuman insolence! He sells him who nourished him. He delivers to death the Master whom he loved. Truly this lawless man is their son. With them will he inherit perdition. Spare our souls of such inhumanity, O Only Lord of boundless mercy. Indeed, may the merciful Lord spare us all of the inhumanities we commit against one another, especially in His Church.
I've periodically peeked at the OCANews page enough to get an idea of what is reported as happening and what a lot of people think about what is happening, and what some people know is happening, but I am unable to make any determination for myself as to what is the truth here. I also suspect too much of the applecart has been upset for this not to reach some sort of boiling point in the next few months, at which time maybe there will be enough light shed on the situation for proper actions to be taken, assuming they're warranted. While I've discussed it with a couple people, including my wife, and made a few basically innocuous comments/inquiries about it, the only thing I can think to do at this time is pray about it and for it, as well as for the people involved. It's not a matter of hiding my head in the sand; the comments of the OCANews posters, as well as some of the principals involved, assure that this isn't going to go away, regardless of what I do or do not do. Lord, have mercy.
Rod, you said, "It is their vocation to be spiritual leaders, and therefore in some sense more spiritually advanced. That's the ideal." I think I might agree more with Lilian here, but it all depends on what we mean by the word, "spiritual." If it means (for me as a Catholic and you as an Orthodox) that God calls specific men to serve Him as His priests, and that they have both the courage and the faith to hear this call and to answer it, then you and I (and possibly Lilian too) agree completely. If, on the other hand, you mean that the priest must somehow have a more advanced spirituality, be more connected with God in prayer than the layman, be more drawn toward the things of Heaven and therefore more capable of resisting the lures of Earth, then I think we disagree, for two reasons. First, God calls whom He calls. Some priests are talented administrators and awful homilists; some are deeply holy and terrible at balancing the books; some are great peacemakers, able to join diverse people in worship and community, but less than gifted when it comes to their ear for music, leading them to approve enthusiastically of lackluster tunes and frown at chant. God calls whom He calls, and I tend to think He knows what He's doing. Do some priests betray that call? Yes. But that doesn't make God mistaken in issuing the call in the first place, does it? And second, it just isn't possible for every priest to be more spiritually advanced than his flock. It becomes like the tale of the new young rural preacher who noticed that an octogenarian of long standing in the church wasn't coming to church any more. He visited her to find out why, and she answered sadly, "Son, you haven't lived enough to have sinned enough to have regretted it enough to have repented on your knees enough to have anything useful to tell me." If we expect our priests to be more spiritually advanced in this sense than we are, all of them, then we're really just rejecting the idea that anyone younger (actually OR spiritually) than we are can be called "Father," and yet God doesn't reject these men; He chooses them, and trusts us to let them be our leaders.
With respect, I think lillian is quite wrong. We are right to expect our spiritual leaders -- priests, pastors, rabbis, imams -- to be especially "spiritual." B*******!
Yes, considering that this devout and articulate Bible Girl writer is the Observer's Editor in Chief.
Trust me. The ads you saw on the Observer Blog are tame. Sometimes I have to divorce myself from the juxtaposition, because some terrific work is published by her paper. But it's hard in private to not sometimes think it's like she is running a brothel while advocating safe sex. But then, now that I think about it, what's wrong with that? Rawlins Gilliland Jack E Jett has been on her like stink on poop over the hypocracy of her piety in the midst of the putrid ads DO carries. She explained that her job is the best in journalism because of the freedom to seek out and publish stories and columns mainstream outlets won't or can't. The downside of her job is the revenue side which she has nothing no input on. What is interesting to me about her position is it defines the newspaper business today. The DO's aggressive editorial attitude reflects what can happen when journalism rides ON the pollution that is the pursuit of revenue. Think of oil and water, journalism being oil. Compare that to the Dallas Morning News. DMN reflects what happens when the revenue and journalism are integrated and become one. The common denominator is the pollution provided by the pursuit of revenue. I'd better stop now, I can get a raw crotch when the briefs get in a knot over the concept of everything being a profit center.
For me the church scandals reflect the basic problems with religion. It's as simple as the nose on your face. The biggest scandals doing the most harm to the faithful happen where the most faith is required to be a believer. Think steeper slope, higher risk, etc and so on. It's evolution defining itself. Predators evolving to benefit from the needs and weaknesses of the prey. It's not unlike the predators that prey upon the unwary financially. In fact that might be the best metaphor to consider the why and how of spiritual predation. Non-violent financial attacks always require the cooperation of the victim. It always requires flawed logic by the victim.
"Think steeper slope" etc. Well, yeah. Ever heard of something called the Ladder of Divine Ascent? It's the idea in Orthodox Christianity the closer one is to God, the more the more the devil is going to try to attack them, the harder he will try to get that person to fall. Richard
harvey lacey: " the briefs get in a knot over the concept of everything being a profit center." Doesn't Mr. Dreher work for the Dallas Morning News? I wonder what he thinks about the sleezy advertising on its web site? Sexual immorality is so prevalent nowdays in our society that it's oozing through the crevices of our walls (like the "blob" in an old horror movie) and devouring everything. It's downright difficult trying to keep it out. On television the other day, I saw sex being used to sell chicken sandwiches. (I guess the same goes for newspapers.) It's reached the point of being ridiculous. So it's little wonder that the church gets affected by all this, as much as the church wants to be pressed into the world's mold, where everything is thought of as a "profit center". The wonder is why is "Bible Girl" so surprised?
harvey lacey, you wrote: "The biggest scandals doing the most harm to the faithful happen where the most faith is required to be a believer. Think steeper slope, higher risk, etc and so on. It always requires flawed logic by the victim." So, logically, we should all live at rock bottom and not strive for anything higher?! That's only logical if we agree that the purpose of life is to avoid getting hurt.
For my own part, I have simply had enough of denominational problems and politics, which is why we belong to an evangelical congregationalist church. My belief in the moral authority of many (if not most)denominations has been too severely compromised for me to ever consider rejoining. So many problems turned out not to be isolated incidents, but systemic problems.
Doesn't Mr. Dreher work for the Dallas Morning News? I wonder what he thinks about the sleezy advertising on its web site?Mandrake Xerxes Beersmogg I don't get it. So many Christians see only one kind of sin. That's of the sexual kind and it always involves other people enjoying it. My dig at Rod and the DMN isn't about sexual corruption of journalism. It's about the corruption of journalism when it has to pass through the filter of for profit. Every topic, each story, is first evaluated for it's acceptance and appreciation by two groups. First and foremost is the buyer, the audience. If the buyer-audience is interested then the seller-advertiser is also interested. When there is harmony on a subject between those two camps then life is good for the media, Dreher and DMN. There's more to life than other people's sex, even for Christians. At least there should be.
"It does seem like the Lord won't let you get away from having to face the reality of sin." St Augustine's line, '...my heart will not rest until it rests in Thee' comes to mind.
"Think steeper slope" etc. Well, yeah. Ever heard of something called the Ladder of Divine Ascent? It's the idea in Orthodox Christianity the closer one is to God, the more the more the devil is going to try to attack them, the harder he will try to get that person to fall. Richard Richard Barrett How about the great failing of knowledge? I'm sure you've heard of it. Usually defined along the lines "the more I know the more I realize how much I don't know." The more one accepts morality as a goal then the more one learns about morality and the more one learns about morality the more one learns just how difficult living a moral life can be.
harvey lacey, you wrote: "The biggest scandals doing the most harm to the faithful happen where the most faith is required to be a believer. Think steeper slope, higher risk, etc and so on. It always requires flawed logic by the victim." So, logically, we should all live at rock bottom and not strive for anything higher?! That's only logical if we agree that the purpose of life is to avoid getting hurt.
For my own part, I have simply had enough of denominational problems and politics, which is why we belong to an evangelical congregationalist church. My belief in the moral authority of many (if not most)denominations has been too severely compromised for me to ever consider rejoining. So many problems turned out not to be isolated incidents, but systemic problems. Starrs I've regretted using the term "flawed logic" every since I posted it. I should have used "weakness". I believe we can agree that the victims of church misbehavior are always taken advantage though a weakness. If it's a priest preying upon a child or a Pentecostal preacher preying upon a young lady the reason the prey was chosen and attacked was because they had a weakness that provided the opportunity. You can further look to why people chase religion and see it's because of a sense of weakness for whatever reason. People don't pray-wish for what's in their grasp. It's always for something beyond the grasp. That's an admission of weakness.
We are right to expect our spiritual leaders -- priests, pastors, rabbis, imams -- to be especially "spiritual." It is their vocation to be spiritual leaders, and therefore in some sense more spiritually advanced. That's the ideal. The mistake comes in thinking that they are somehow less human, or thinking that the title automatically confers wisdom and holiness. Rod Dreher I think Rod hit it right between the eyes. (a friend of mine explains that if you want to drop an animal instantly you make an X from eye to ear and other eye to ear. Where those lines cross a twenty two long rifle will drop a hog or a bull instantly.) Rod's saying we judge a faith by the men who define it. Therein lies the problem.
I've always wanted to be an anonymous. Now I have been, quoting Rod while at it too!
Fair enough clarification, harvey lacey, and I do quite understand how an individual weakness might make one susceptible to abuse. But as a philosophy: you are reducing mankind to its lowest common denominator in terms of behavior or code. If grasping for something beyond our reach - something not of the flesh - is a sign of weakness, doesn't that mean that love, a sense of belonging, community, the very idea of ejoyment beyond personal fulfillment are all signs of human weakness? I think those are the only things that make life worthwhile.
It's a sad story.
Rod, I found this article by Fr. Thomas Hopko entitled "What Can We Do?" to be most helpful when trying to digest the current OCA mess: http://ocanews.org/Hopko8.18.06.html I am a fellow Orthodox convert attending Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church in Dallas.
Christ warned us there would be tares in the wheat; it is very painful to be in the church with them though!
But as a philosophy: you are reducing mankind to its lowest common denominator in terms of behavior or code. If grasping for something beyond our reach - something not of the flesh - is a sign of weakness, doesn't that mean that love, a sense of belonging, community, the very idea of ejoyment beyond personal fulfillment are all signs of human weakness? I think those are the only things that make life worthwhile. Starrs Starrs my friend, I do believe you're figuring out why there's peanuts in peanut butter. Before I get off into what and why I believe I'd like to thank you for a great reply. It's the replies that help us view our own statements with a clarity we find difficult to find on our own. For me the difference between my philosophy and say Rod's is the importance of the me. Theists like Rod initiate the discussion from the perspective that the me is the critical element. They were created by a deity. The deity is concerned about them and their behavior. They can alter the world around them with their interactions with the deity. My me is like the grain of sand on the beach. It's singular but not unique. It's not important in of itself. But the beach would not be the same without it's presence. It's importance comes from being a grain of sand. Without the grains of sand the beach itself would be different, everything would be different. Now how does the two different philosophies affect the individual I ask? Why do you believe the theist is the more moral and person?
The church as a whole is falling away and I even include my own groups: evangelical, Baptist and even fundamentalist churches. For many Christians even finding a decent church home is difficult to impossible. This is why the phenonmenon of so called home churchesis growing.
Even the Southern Baptists have Rick Warren and his apostate nonsense, and some fundamentalist churches have the Dominionists or "Lordship Salvation" people preaching their errors and "another gospel".. What it comes down to, is one is to obey God rather then men, and make sure the focus of their faith is in God not men. I would not advise anyone to keep company with ANY CHURCH feeding them spiritual poison. While we certainly can realize there is no such things as a perfect church, especially once we ourselves have joined;), many Christians are feeling the loss of even finding a church that is even keeping to the basics of the faith.
I recently moved from a beloved Bible preaching indp Baptist church I was in for years and have been appalled by what I have seen in my new community. Churches that barely seem to even know what Christianity is. Prosperity gospel, rock music, fancy bookstores, instead of libraries inside churches. I believe in the local New Testament church, but sometimes finding one that even sticks by the basics is getting harder and harder. I believe this is part of Bible prophecy the great apostasty. Jesus Christ asked if He would find faith on earth upon His return. There is a reason for that. While I deeply desire Christian fellowship and am praying for God to lead me somewhere, I know I will not yoke with a church that preaches against Gods Word.
Today ones faith better be centered in Jesus Christ and NOT in church membership and the heirarchies of men.
So, which one - "utterly stunned" or the last "Anonymous" - is Diane?
Biblebeliever, there's a real life metaphor for what we're discussing. It's called "doctor shopping." You know, where patients or loved ones of the patients shop until they find the doctor that gives them the prognosis they want. We see the same problems with fraud in that form of shopping too. I guess it's the nature of human nature, seek and ye shall find.
Dear Rod, I sort of wondered how you would deal with Orthodox scandals. The sexual scandals in the Orthodox Church in Greece rival anything the Catholic Church endured. I think you made a mistake leaving Catholicism and now you are caught in a bind. If you are consistant you would leave Orthodoxy, but if you don't then that undercuts your reasons for leaving Catholicism. I have no easy answer for you. I didn't become Catholic because of the holiness of its clergy nor will I leave because of the sinfulness of its clergy. I expected the wheat and the tares. God bless.
Anonymous - is that you again, Diane?
Dear Rod,
After reading Fr. J's comment, I felt compelled to look into some of the scandals in the Orthodox church, particularly in Greece, as I will be visiting there shortly. I must say that I was shocked at what I came up with through a simple google search, and it filled me with great sadness. Having just finished a long period of discernment between being Orthodox or Eastern Rite Catholic, and choosing to remain Orthodox, this was particularly hard to take, especially since the decision to remain Orthodox cost me a very dear relationship.
It's easy for us Orthodox to feel superior to our Western brethren, however, we must face our sinfullness honestly, and not lord anything over other Christians, lest we become like the Pharisees. Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail over the church, but that doesn't mean we won't face trial. There are times when we face attack and we can lose sight of where to turn, which is to Christ. It's hard enough to face the attack of the Enemy from without, it's downright disheartening when the blows come from within the church.
I wasn't feeling very good about the state of modern Christianity when I was about to go to bed a little while ago, however, in the St. James Daily Devotional Guide, the evening Psalm was Psalm 74 which gave me hope, for the Lord "...didst divide the sea by thy might; thou didst break the heads of the dragons on the waters..." There is much fruit in this Psalm, especially since the Psalmist seems to be in a completely hopeless situation, as those of us who are truly trying to live virtuous lives in these modern times. I will leave it to you to read the rest of it.
Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, and remember that for those who lead others into sin, it would be better for them to have a millstone put around their necks and be cast into the sea, than to face the King of Glory on that last day.
John, where on earth have I claimed that Orthodox Christianity is without sin? I don't, because it isn't. As I've written elsewhere, I didn't become Orthodox to escape into a sinless, or even relatively sinless, church. I never imagined that that was true. Rather, I became Orthodox because I'd ceased to believe the Catholic claim to be the fullest expression of the Christian faith, and because I found real life at St. Seraphim's cathedral. I entered Orthodoxy fully aware that if scandal wasn't already present there, it would certainly be at some point. And I entered determined to protect myself in some way from the anger that led to the destruction of my Catholic faith. Part of that means that I have to restrain myself from getting involved in talking about and fighting publicly over whatever scandals are in Orthodoxy. You can be sure that I'm seeing them, but I'm trying to be wiser and more self-disciplined in reacting to them than I was as a Catholic. But in no case am I under the illusion that the Orthodox Church is without sin relative to the Catholic Church, and I don't understand where you and others have gotten that idea.
I'm sorry if my comment gave you that impression, that was not my intent. It was really the attempt of one Christian brother trying to offer some support to another Christian brother and share some hope that the Lord has provided through Scripture in times of trial. So, please accept my apology, and have a blessed Holy Week.
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