Thinking through it
A Muslim friend and reader of this blog writes:Before you buy the idea that the West needs to ban all Muslim immigration please keep in mind that my parents (hard-working, bright, thoughtful people) are Muslims and that I (a decent...
IMO, the only thing that can be done is to take every application for immigration as a single case. To apply a blanket standard to every individual is wrong-headed.
Rod, here is another important perspective in the article "Taking Muslims at their word." http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/cgi-bin/rockfordfiles.cgi/Islam/ For years, I had wonderful family friends who were Muslims. They are still wonderful people, though we are no longer neighbors. But how does this help me, the infidel, if sharia law is imposed in the neighborhood. My wonderful Muslim friends are not going to risk their lives to defend the "rights" of the infidel.
Where is there any proof that ordinary Muslims in American are being threatened with their lives if they resist their leaders? Are there polls that bear this out? Underground reporting from qualified sources?
Evan Kohlmann is one of the top counterterrorism researchers. I don't recall everything that he (and others I didn't quote in my story) told me, but I do recall speaking to one source, an Arab non-Muslim who in the recent past done undercover counterterrorism work within the extremist community, telling me that murders of dissenters within Islamic immigrant communities had taken place ... and that the message had been received loud and clear by anyone who would stand up to the Salafists. I had no reason to doubt this person, who had risked his own life many times to document the presence of violent Islamist radicalism, and who had no apparent reason to minimize the reality.
The only long-term solution is to outbreed them.
Europe is generally much worse at this sort of thing - coping with immigrants - than the United States. Europe's problems are not necessarily the States' problems. Did you happen to see the NY Times article on March 11 about the two mosques in New York - one an African-American mosque and the other an immigrant mosque? An interesting article for a lot of reasons, but the immigrant Muslims were by far the more "moderate" - men and women worshiping together, women with uncovered heads outside the mosque, etc. I have no way of knowing how typical that experience is, but I'm willing to bet that's not the only mosque of its kind in the country. The U.S. has had its share of revolutionary immigrants - think of the Italian anarchists. What worked in the past seems to be doing okay in the present, at least for now. Europe is, however, a different story.
I think Rod has identified a genuine problem.
To the extent that one is a lukewarm Muslim, or a "live and let live, my faith is a private matter" Muslim, he is probably part of the "silent majority" (at least I hope it's a majority) of moderates who lack the "passionate intensity" to stand up to the Islamists.
To an Islamist, separation of church and state is not permissible, and Muslims are charged with waging jihad until the whole world has become Muslim (or been destroyed in the attempt).
Paul Berman, in discussing Sayyid Qutb, related that Qutb saw the greatest threat to the Muslim world coming from precisely those liberal democratic values that would "privatize" faith and inaugurate separation of Church and State in the Muslim world.
It seems to me that the only Muslims who stand a chance of successfully opposing the Islamists are the passionate liberal Muslims like Irshad Manji and the "apostate" former Muslims like Ayyan Hirsi Ali.
And it seems to me that it is incumbent on those who believe in liberal (small d) democracy to support these passionate Muslims, and keep them from being marginalized by those who would accuse them of being "attention seeking" or crazy, or unserious, or racist, or self-hating, etc.
Alicia: To an Islamist, separation of church and state is not permissible, and Muslims are charged with waging jihad until the whole world has become Muslim (or been destroyed in the attempt). The problem is, Alicia, as far as I can tell, the Islamists are correct. There's is normative Koranic Islam.
Part of what must happen is to let modernity (science, culture, arts -- and not all western!) continue to spread throughout Islamic countries. Their fundamentalism is a push-back against the world of today just like that of other faiths and cultures -- but their culture has only begun that journey. Obviously, the world is such that they have not opted to go back into the woodwork as did the anti-Darwin Christians after Scopes, but in the end reality will win out. (Hey, I claim the right to be at least as optimistic as others seem to be pessimistic!) One thing we should refrain from as much as possible is appearing to threaten their culture militarily. They're human and tend to react much as we have the habit of doing -- by hardening their stance and trying to rattle sabers as loudly as those threatening them. Unfortunately, many have fallen into the trap, doing exactly as OBL hopes. ("If we back down, we'll give them a victory and prove we don't have the stomach for a fight..." etc.) Others may wish to out-bin-laden OBL, I would urge that we don't. There are other more effective approaches. Some may seem weak and sissified to the nuke-em-now or nuke-em-later crowd, but it might be worthwhile to reflect on what Jesus and Ghandi said about how to treat one's enemies. They may have been on to something.
Pauli writes: The only long-term solution is to outbreed them. This is the truth.
ChuckDFW writes: what must happen is to let modernity (science, culture, arts -- and not all western!) continue to spread throughout Islamic countries. ChuckDFW, even if your dream came true and Muslims became educated and modern, they would simply stop breeding. This is no solution, because somebody else will always breed. It's Darwin's law. The very reason the Muslims are breeding is because they are so fundamentalist. The real problem is not Muslims. It's us. We won't breed at replacement. They will.
One thing that has to be understood is that when Muslims are asked if they support shari'a (divine law), it's like asking Christians if they support the Ten Commandments; who's going to say no? But what they mean when they say yes is not necessarily what non-Muslims surmise it to mean.
Rod: "What particularly concerns me is that the degree to which Muslims are adapted to living and accepting Western liberal democracy and pluralism correlates with the degree to which they are alienated from normative Islam." I would say alienation from "normative Islam" is a positive thing, just like alienation from a gang of street thugs is good. It will hopefully help many of them on their way to conversion to Christianity.
Thanks, Rod. I agree that the Islamists appear to be closer to the letter and spirit of the Koran, as I understand it (with my very limited understanding of it) and the Hadiths than moderate Muslims (and forget about progressive Muslims, they fall off the planet, as far as the Islamists are concerned). I think, in fact, what liberals from the U.S. want to do is precisely what Sayyid Qutb feared they wanted to do, which is to privatize Islam and limit its practice to the private sphere and spread the idea of separation of Church and State.
It seems to me that great credit is due to Berman for identifying this problem, since it is in such direct contradiction to liberal, "pro-tolerance and pro-inclusion" values. It is represents a contradiction in liberal thinking, it seems to me. The reason I brought up Ayyan Hirsi Ali and Irshad Manji, above, is that these are people who have been burned by Islam, so they are alert to the dangers of appeasing the Islamists.
Most liberal Christians, not having been burned by Islam in quite this way, can afford to maintain contradictory attitudes, denying the danger of the Islamists and preaching tolerance while also assuming that Muslims will be content to "keep their faith in the private sphere" and practice separation of Church and State.
I think, in fact, what liberals from the U.S. want to do is precisely what Sayyid Qutb feared they wanted to do, which is to privatize Islam and limit its practice to the private sphere and spread the idea of separation of Church and State. I think Sayyid Qutb was a monstrous fanatic (he preached total war on infidels). I also think that he was right: that (to use the Pope's formulation) if Islam were to become Westernized, it would be alien to itself. He very clearly saw what Islam was up against.
The problem that Europe is experiencing with Muslim immigration is to some extent a case of karmic blowback from the colonial era. Or, as a British woman of Pakistani origin once told a friend of mine, "We are here because you were there."
But it is true that Muslims have no significant history of living in countries ruled by non-Muslims, and have no ideological handle on doing it. It's true that shari'a is an all-encompassing system, recognizing no distinction between secular and religious, or religion and state.
But guess what, folks! Both Judaism and Christianity started out the same way. The development of an autonomous civil realm came late to both, and brought a lot of strife and heartbreak with it. Islam hasn't gone through that phase yet. In the meantime, we've got a problem. But that doesn't mean Muslims are a totally different species of human being--just that their history has developed differently from ours.
the beginning statement could be applied to the way in which we treat low-income transplants from one city who goto another seeking a way out of a crime filled neighborhood. If you grow up in a crime ridden neighborhood, and move to an new place where you have no roots all you have to fall back on is the survival skills of your old heritage.
More needs to be done not only for the immigrant groups but also for those who immigrate from the inner-city seeking a better life to help them find their roots in a new place as productive citizens that can be more than people who came from a ghetto. Often people who have only one vision of themself, and who have little formal job skills are stuck in a cycle of anti-social surivalism and living day to day no matter where they go. Breaking this cycle by involving them in the local church-run work efforts or other social service efforts could be a key way not only to show the welcome of the community for the new person, but also to show them the confidence of the neighborhood in the ability of the immigrant to make something of themself and become more than their present poverty. It's as simple as working at a soup kitchen, its as simple as running a Clothes for Careers drive, its as simple as job skills training. These services and many more in tandem go a long way to breaking down barriers between communities and building up the strength of the community as a whole.
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