Crunchy Con

We're No. 1!

Thursday March 29, 2007

Andrew Roberts' "A History of the English-Speaking Peoples Since 1900" turned up in the office mail recently. Hick that I am, I had no idea that Roberts is an English historian and conservative commentator. I thought the Churchillian title was...
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Comments
JR
March 29, 2007 2:13 PM
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Here's the thing about the barbarian goths who smashed the western empire: they quickly went 'native'. The Visigoths conquered and settled in Roman Spain -- but archaeologists have found no graves of that Visigoth elite, only predictable Roman funerary practices. Answer: those goths quickly Romanized their culture. Why live like a Goth when one could live like a Roman? ('cause that's living!) That's why Will's point still stands: our current barbarians are ideologically indisposed to wake up and realize they actually want their MTV. Your point about the historical sense of the tragic still holds, but I don't think Rome's barbarians offer much insight into ours.

Bubba
March 29, 2007 2:27 PM
http://concrunchy.blogspot.com/

I think one can honestly say that a single even serious attack on a major city cannot bring Western civilization to its end without suggesting that nothing can defeat that civilization, and I think one can honestly say that Al Queda doesn't have an alternative model to run a modern society without suggesting that our model is invincible and immortal. The quote you gave, Rod, does not clearly imply the triumphalism that you so despise. I think one can cultivate a sense of the tragic to such a degree that he sees triumphalism when it's not there. Honestly, I think some in this culture provide more than enough of a sense of the tragic: they assert that our military is not only not omnipotent (which is obvious), but that it's altogether impotent to accomplish any objective; it's not only not invincible, it's a delicate flower that wilts under any pressure; and it's not only less than morally perfect, they say it's a truly evil institution. You're wrongly attributing triumphalism to those who are trying to resist a cultural self-loathing that borders on the suicidal: it's not only wrong to make such a misattribution, in this case it's dangerous.

Bubba
March 29, 2007 2:43 PM
http://concrunchy.blogspot.com/

And as a brief aside, I would respectfully remind you, Rod, that you mentioned making a more substantive response in our brief exchange about the social consequences of the Baptist doctrine of soul competency.
Just last week, you made the heretofore unprecedented move of criticizing the doctrine -- the doctrine, not individuals or their actions -- of another Christian denomination, my denomination, by asserting (wrongly, I believe) that soul competency is indicted for the regrettable habit of some to think of religion as "a purely private thing." It's a serious charge, I've responded at length, you apparently stand by the accusation, and in the early hours of March 24th you wrote, "It's late, and I'm headed to bed, so I'll respond more fully tomorrow." I've been patient in giving you time beyond that to give that response, and I would like to ask you to provide that response. Since this comment's off-topic, feel free to delete it, Rod, but if you're not going to retract what I believe to be a ridiculous slander of Baptist doctrine, I would appreciate your keeping your promise to explain that slander more fully.

Joe Marier
March 29, 2007 4:38 PM
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I can quote P.J. O'Rourke: "The fall of Rome is a sad story, until you realize we are the people that Rome fell to."

Bruce
March 29, 2007 5:06 PM
http://7leper.blogspot.com

Even were terrorists to strike a further, perhaps chemical, biological or nuclear blow against one of the English-speaking peoples' principal cities, it would not destroy that primacy. I don't *feel* like a triumphalist, but I agree with the above statement. That's why I worry about people who seem willing to curtail all of our freedoms to prevent "another 9/11".
Now I wasn't there, so maybe I speak of what I know not, but "another 9/11" is not the worst that can happen.

Rod Dreher
March 29, 2007 6:34 PM
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Since this comment's off-topic, feel free to delete it, Rod, but if you're not going to retract what I believe to be a ridiculous slander of Baptist doctrine, I would appreciate your keeping your promise to explain that slander more fully. You're right, I'd forgotten about that, I'm not intentionally ignoring you. I'll go back today and answer it. Have to say, Bubba, that the reason I find it unpalatable to engage you is that you tend to overreact to any criticism I make of things you believe in. Anybody who knows me knows that I haven't the slightest hostility to Baptists, and if I have misunderstood Baptist doctrine, I'm perfectly willing to stand corrected, and in fact would appreciate it. You leap to the conclusion that I've "slandered" Baptists, knowing (as I presume you do) that to slander someone -- at least in the legal sense -- requires malice aforethought. Though you often raise relevant questions and make good points, I hope you can understand why it's not especially inviting to engage you when you impute the worst possible personal motive to everything I say.

Bubba
March 29, 2007 7:28 PM
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Rod, here, to argue that I "impute the worst possible personal motive to everything [you] say," you're presuming that my use of the word "slander" matches the legal term in that it involves malice aforethought. I'm not sure anything I've written justifies that presumption. It may suffice to say that I often do draw negative conclusions about you -- conclusions that require leaps from what the evidence strictly implies -- but you clearly do the same.
It may not serve either of us in understanding the other to go through a litany of reasons we don't like each other. Instead, I'll stand waiting for your reply.

Rod Dreher
March 29, 2007 10:11 PM
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I cannot believe that I just deleted a post (mari lup's, naturally) because it called Bubba names. ;) Seriously, I do try to be fair here.

Bubba
March 30, 2007 12:54 AM
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Thanks, Rod. I saw the comment actually, and it was at least worth a laugh.

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About Crunchy Con

Rod Dreher is an editorial columnist for the Dallas Morning News, and author of "Crunchy Cons" (Crown Forum), a nonfiction book about conservatives, most of them religious, whose faith and political convictions sometimes put them at odds with mainstream conservatives. The views expressed in this blog are his own.

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