Why don't liberals like megachurches?

Chuck, Maybe because there is a fundemental disconnect in world views that leads people to suspect the motives of people in the other camp. For instance, it confuses many people that folks who cry for grass roots organization and empowerment get all suspicious when a group actually gets organized and empwers itself, but disagrees with those who are frequently described as liberal. It may also appear nonsencical when people who cry for diversity try to silence viewpoints other than their own. or maybe when people who denounce what they percieve to be violent ideation by christians carry signs calling for the euthanization of christians. Heck--i even get suspicious when people who cry out for free speech say that vocal Christians should shut up, and sport "lobotimies for republicans: it should be the law" bumperstickers. And yes, I've seen each of these things personnally. It's sorta like when you stereotype us as ignorant by implying we can't spell or prounounce the word "liberal". Sincerely, Ignorant Redneck

Well I HAVE been to more than one so-called 'Mega Church' and there were several things that made me feel...what's that word?....creepy or at least, oddly uneasy. The one-size-fits-all preaching seemed somehow subversive as I could never pinpoint a doctrine. And it was like being in a middle class commune where the teens wore 'Warriors for Jesus' t-shirts and a sort of 'You're an abomination but God loves you' piety seethed throughout. The little theater drama was family friendly from stage, but there was no 'there' there for a lapsed Episcopalian. But there was undeniably a sense of 'community' and a core of belonging that gave meaning to the general congregation. Postscript per your earnest vow to visit one of the above: Somehow the visual of Rod Dreher in a Mega Church seems strange, like Brit Hume in a gay bar. But hey.... knowledge is power. And those Mega-What? Churches wield a whole lotta power in your party of choice, the GOP.

Somehow the visual of Rod Dreher in a Mega Church seems strange, like Brit Hume in a gay bar. As Rawlins knows, everything is bigger in Texas. We've even got a gay megachurch in Dallas (the MCC Cathedral of Hope).
I'm not megachurch material, but I really do feel the need to go see what's going on there. Megachurches are so important to the life of our region, and sociologically, they're a big deal.

I don't have any big problem with them. But personally, I think they tend to be built upon the personalities of one or two people. From my perspective (I'm Catholic), that just does not sit well. But, hey, I certainly don't consider them to be my political enemy.

The Cathedral of Hope is no longer MCC. It is now a UCC church

I disagree with the idea that megachurches build community. They are too big to effectively build and foster community. It is more commonly a place to gather to hear so charismatic guy speak for half for 45 minutes. Take Lakewood Church in Houston, for example. They meet in a basketball arena to hear a self-help author "preach". How can you have real community with 19,000 other people? You can't. Granted, small communities might pop up in the midst of the masses, but the megachurch itself is no community. That kind of thing, the community/family, can only be found in smaller churches/parishes, I believe. And I speak from megachurch experience. I used to play music for a massive mall-sized church 30 minutes north of Dallas.

What disturbs me most about mega-churches is the crass consumerism of it all coupled with a move away from communities to outlying areas off of major interstates. This has a two-fold effect. 1) Poorer folks who can't afford to drive 50 miles to go to church simply don't attend them, creating a class-level homogenaity where the most of the church membership is middle-upper class. This in and of itself is nothing to be upset about, but as a result, chain businesses, restaurants, etc., build in the mega-church turning worship into a trip to the mall. Get your communal wine at 10:30, latte and cinnabon at 11:00 while walking around shopping for the latest in "Jesus-wear." 2) Those same people who would be spending in and thereby supporting their local communities are instead sending their money to out-of-state owners and developers. People are getting *rich* off of these mega churches while local communities are finding themselves arsed out. Recently, Rod posted a National Geographic article re: Orlando, FL. that spoke to exactly this side-effect of the mega-ideal.

I haven't been to a megachurch, but I've watched Joel Osteen before, and once or twice watched all the way through an hour-long "sermon" of his to get a flavor of it. I guess that doesn't allow me to make an assessment of the community experience at the churches, but I did leave with a more confirmed distaste for Joel Osteen. If he's at all representative of megachurch pastors - but even if he's not, he still reaches a massive audience on his own - then I can't see how that's a good situation for Christians, notwithstanding any sense of community. As others have said, it's just self-help. Any talk of sacrifice, sin, theology, true salvation, or really Christ himself is almost entirely absent. I wouldn't expect crucifixes since they aren't Catholic, but there isn't even a plain cross in sight, just a globe. Slick marketing and the prosperity gospel - your neighbors may be really nice, but why not get together at the community clubhouse instead instead of funding your pastor's $2 million home?

I found the Nat'l Geographic article: Click here to open article in a new window. A couple of quotes that give me pause: The megachurch is the culmination, at least so far, of the integration of religious practice into the freeway-driven, market-savvy, franchise form of American life... His church's physical transformation has been accompanied by a philosophical change. "We are not here to dictate our faith," says Henry, a past president of the Southern Baptist Convention. He was one of the movers behind the Southern Baptist decision to issue a formal apology to African Americans for the convention's past support of slavery and segregation. Henry also opposed the Southern Baptist boycott, now lifted, of Disney World because of its toleration of openly homosexual visitors... {editor note: I'd usually applaud something like that, but I can't bring myself to do it. This is "religion-lite" and is product as opposed to principle being hawked.} It's been a revealing journey, from a small Mississippi congregation to an Orlando megachurch that is not only bigger, but more diverse than seemed imaginable. In the process, Henry, who's now retired as pastor, has become an authority on megachurch growth management. His book Dangerous Intersections shows churches how to cope with their growth. As Henry explains it, one of the trickiest things about getting people to worship is getting them in and out of the parking lots. At First Baptist, sermons are coordinated with the time required to get one congregation into their cars and back on the freeways. A system of color-coded signals keeps preachers from talking too long, creating traffic jams on the access ramps and chaos in the parking lots. No altar calls, no leisurely hanging around to get to know your fellow church members.
I think i'm just getting old. I remember at the First Baptist Church in LaPlace, LA (where I grew up), Pastor Speights would stand at the exit and have a word and a handshake for every single person coming out of the door. When I was 9 or 10, we used to ride our bikes in the summer the 3 miles to First Baptist because Pastor Speights would always be there with a kind word for us kids. He'd open the church library and let us read the (children's) books as long as we'd clean up after ourselves.
Church was home away from home when I was growing up. I just don't see that happening now with the megas. Do people still have that kind of relationship with their churches anymore?

♪♪ You can't figure out the bag I'm in, baby ♪♪ ♪♪ Different strokes for different folks ♪♪ ♪♪ And so on and so on and scooby, doobie, doobie.... ♪♪ We got to live together.... ♪♪

The thing that worries me the most about megachurches is their very popularity. It suggests to me (perhaps incorrectly) that they shy away from telling people things they don't want to hear. Truth hurts, and that's why the most truthful churches tend to have the fewest worshippers, in my experience. And yes, I'm speaking in broad generalities here, I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions to the rule etc. etc.

Ditto what Andy said. In my experience, megachurches are the antithesis of "community." It is entirely too easy to be anonymous, attend services regularly, and see no one you know. Or, you do know people, but only superficially. And/or you quit going, and no one notices you're gone (because no one knew you were there to begin with).

Some of Protestant, at least, objection to "mega-churches" is simple envy. "Why aren't we as successful as Pastor Orator over at the Stunning Cathedral"?

I suspect that the families of you and your friends, TV, were involved in your church in such a way that is exceedingly difficult to be in a mega-church. True? I can only speak to my experience, but yeah - we were there every Sunday morning, Sunday evenings for choir and choral (kids, teens and grownups had their own choirs), Wednesday night for Bible study and Saturday afternoons for teen gatherings. The parents of all my friends in children's and teen choirs were active in the church. We had potlucks once a week at one of their houses. A big church-wide potluck happened once a month in the Fellowship Hall (read - great big room with folding chairs and card tables). Picnics every second Saturday during the summer, Vacation Bible school when I was a child, and church camp when I was older. Church wasn't just where we worshipped, it *was* our community. LaPlace back in the lat 70s maybe had 7000-10000 people. Our church when I started there in 1977 had about 500 members. When I left in my mid-teens, there were about 40000 people in the town and 1500 in the church. Even after we built a new great big sanctuary in the early 80s, it still seemed like home because of the people. I can't speak for the mega-churches, though. Maybe the experience is similar for kids coming up today, but I somehow doubt that's possible when there's so much *money* involved. I don't think a pack of wild 10-year-olds would be given the run of the place, though I suspect they could probably buy a pizza or some ice cream?

Bigger does not mean worse. But there is such a thing as too big. But: The size is not really the issue.

Hm. Some off-the-top New Rules For Newbies Looking For A Church: 1. Avoid any place where the personality of the pastor is of first importance. Pastor Greattalker is not our savior. 2. Ask some serious questions of anyone who wants to re-baptize you. (Sorry, Rod.) Is it a cult? Only We Are Good Enough? 3. If anyone even asks how much money you're willing to put in, let alone ranks members by financial contribution, run, do not walk, to the nearest exit. 4. If anyone suggests that "Giving money to me is the same as giving it to God," same advice. 5. Is everyone, including schizophrenic loonies, welcome at the church? This is a good sign. If every single person is a well-dressed middle class person, ask some serious questions. 6. Oh yes doctrine. Nicene Creed? Good. Not Nicene Creed? A problem. There are probably a lot more. Size is neither here nor there. But if the pastor panders to the culture, not good.

This has been an ongoing discussion at my blog. The biggest problem is that you cannot have community without proximity. Without proximate, you have a superficial community. The megachurches just happen to best exemplify this. Additionally with a Catholic parish, in a community of 10,000 people you would not generally see more than 2 Catholic parishes.

~tv, I'm really amazed that you grew up in Pastor Speights' church. I know him, sort of. I was friends in high school with his son Stephen, who grew up to become an actor and playwright in New York. I can't say that I really know Pastor Speights, but I sure was/am fond of the Speights family.

Rod - You're just a couple of years older than I am. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you go to Louisiana School for Math, Science and the Arts in Nachitoches (forgive my mangling of the spelling)? I was in the same grade as (and very close friends with) with Stephen's sister Stephanie before she went off to Louisiana School. I was accepted there but didn't attend because I was (don't laugh) not ready to leave home yet. Various reasons - one of which was I was terrified someone would find out I was one of "the gays." At any rate - small flippin world, huh?

Just a quick thought here. According to Acts 4:4, wasn't the church in Jerusalem (at least briefly) a megachurch (5,000 men)?

Well, as someone who only sets foot in a church when a friend gets married or an in-law is on his way to a more sulpherous domain, I can't see any rational objection to megachurches,any more than one may rationally object to the existence of any church. (At least now the objections are raised on blogs with words and not with cannon like in the olden days.) If the people who go to them are happy and they bring in money to the local shopping mall, there can be no harm in them and I can't conceive of a reason why anyone would care what liberals object to about anything. Or what conservatives object to, for that matter.

I don't often post, so you'll excuse me if I'm not as precise and well-spoken as the rest of you. *grin* But I have to agree that, from my experience of knowing people who attend mega-churches, and attending mega-youth group meetings with these people (in this case, they were of the Assembly of God church, and I was raised Roman Catholic), that they DO seem rather 'franchised'. By this, however, I mean it in the same way I mean a place like McDonald's or Wal Mart - when I mention that we do not go to either place unless it's a necessity, people boggle their eyes at me as if I'm some sort of weirdo. In the same aspect, when I attended a youth group mega-meeting where they had a chapel/prayer service, I didn't feel the same closeness to God that I felt in the smaller (and quieter!) Catholic church I grew up in. Upon expressing this observation to my friends, they boggled their eyes at me, then said that THEY couldn't see how I could go to a "boring" church. Is this what religion and church attendance has boiled down to - how FUN it is rather than what you actually believe? To the point where they feel they can ridicule certain beliefs based on whether or not you can dance while you sing? I thought attending church, while PARTLY for community, was to be in a place OF God so you could feel close TO God, not close to your neighbors. And how comfortable could you possibly feel to approach said preacher if you had a problem? I tell you, I had NO problem talking to our parish Priest if I needed an ear. And then, it's REAL nice (sarcasm) to hear people say "we're helping the community" and then watch them the next day tell someone that they're not worthy to be in a person's presence because they're not Christian (believe it or not, I've seen this happen!). I thought helping the community meant helping EVERYONE in the community, regardless of beliefs - or maybe I just misheard/read that lesson taught by Jesus? (and granted, this happens in smaller churches, too, but my experience has been that it's more prevalent in larger ones where they have no one to keep them in check.)

Yes, they do very well in the community building...tons of "drop your kids at our youth/sports/music program. (I call it "babysitting")
These churches are a mess. They are often run by people without theological training and are part of the whole "church-of-the-what's-happening-now" movement. Liberals can be a very traditional, main-stream bunch, despite claims by neo-cons who claim to know what's in their hearts. I know many people who go to these big churches, but they all seem to be the families with deep dark secrets.
My friends who go to these places dutifully hate who the church tells them to hate (liberals, gays, catholics, etc) in the big theatre, but "forgive" the husband that brings home icky social disease or the woman who wants her autistic child to focus more on Jesus than his blankie and takes it away permanently (oh, the child was adopted, born of a prostitute and has satan in his heart, so he's being punished by God). The thing that worries me is that the other people in these churches never put a stop to this kind of thinking...rather they say, "oh, we'll pray with you"...nice start but how about, "we'll pray with you, BTW, autism isn't a punishment from God and you might try some medical treatments to mitigate some of the effects" Sorry, but I've never, ever met a "normal" person who attends these type of churches or (at the very least) someone who I admire and care to emulate. Despite high incomes, decent educations and work, I find myself wondering "what's in the water in their community?". Seriously, it has been discovered that the people who perpetrated the Salem witch trials (as well as those who thought they saw Satan) were being poisened by contaminated water supplies. Further, they distort both the bible and the words of Jesus to make a buck. I've visited these places plenty of times. It's not "distain" based on ignorance, but rather a sound judgement based in fact, observation, and a small dose of reason.

Back at work today after being home with a flooded bathroom (don't ask), but I wanted to thank you, Rod, for the trip down memory lane before I get back into the daily grind. As a final note on this subject, I think that the role of a church family as an extension of one's home family is something I'd find difficult in a mega-variety church home. The leaders of our church (the pastor, the deacons of whom my father was one, the pastor's wife, the choir directors, the Sunday school leaders, et al.,) weren't untouchables on a pedestal, they were people who were as much a part of my life as my mother and father. I'm certainly not saying that the pedestal model is de rigeur in the mega-world, but I do have difficulty seeing it otherwise simply by the sheer scope of the proceedings. I wonder how it will be for children and youth growing up in that model. How can people really be role-models for the next generation when they're not involved with the next generation except through policy-making and identity politicking? My point, if I have one, is that for God and the things of God to be real for people they have to be modeled by people who are really *in* the lives of the members. Otherwise, I don't see a difference between a weekly 10k arena service and a pep-rally or political rally. It becomes a matter of identity like affiliation with a sports team or support of a partisan politician. How do people get fed and grow? Anyhow, fascinating discussion, and good articles. Have a great day!

This is all well and good, but it could be describing boy scout troops writ large. Part of being in an actual community is being a neighbor and all that entails. Driving 30 minutes to a glorified theatre to talk religion isn't community no matter how often one says it.

Not that I'm labelling Donny as a troll or anything, but this board community has been pretty consistent, generally, in ignoring his posts. I would, however, like to examine this "bulwark against the world" idea brought up in his post. There's something to be said for the effect of being exposed to thousands of like-minded people once a week, even for a pep-rally - sort of a reassurance that "I'm not the only one" even though one might be in one's workplace, classroom, or family. Is this a function that Church serves on the small scale as it does on the large? How recent a phenomenon is this, because I don't remember at all this sort of tribal identity. I can't speak for everyone in my church, but the consensus among the teens, for instance, was that we were fortunate to be saved by grace - it wasn't anything *we'd* done, so there was never a sense of animosity against those who didn't go the same way we did... Lunch is over. Back to the grind!

"Liberals can be a very traditional, main-stream bunch, despite claims by neo-cons who claim to know what's in their hearts." I can only speak for myself, but I agree with this. As a pretty liberal Christian (I grew up Catholic, now attend an Episcopal church, and wish to join officially), I tend to prefer more traditional, liturgical forms of worship, as in the RCC and TEC. Even though (or maybe even because) my personal beliefs are somewhere between Hans Kung and Bishop Spong, I tend to find mystical, contemplative, and sacramental practice more attractive than the more commercialized megachurch atmosphere (I'll admit right now I've never been to one, but this is the impression I've gotten).

I certainly cannot speak for all "megachurches," but I can enthusiastically support the current church my family attends in the Atlanta suburbs of Alpharetta. We have been fortunate to avoid the criticisms listed here (some by posters who admit to never participating in such a church):
Our pastors preach the Bible, no more, no less, and they absolutely speak the truth in love on the hard issues;
There is absolutely no cult of personality (trust me, I have seen this happen in the smallest of churches!);
Having lived here for just a couple of years, we thank God for the true community we have enjoyed - families who live close by as well as those a half-hour away - with whom we've shared life every day of the week;
Our family and marriage have benefitted more from our participation in numerous "small groups" than 40 years of Sunday school classes - we learn to be vulnerable, transparent, therefore accountable, and thereby growing in our Christian walk;
We do not attend for the "convenience" of several services, as our children's small groups meet at one particular service;
Prior baptisms done by choice after a conversion experience absolutely "count" - there is no requirement to be baptized again.
Having grown up in more traditional Baptist-style churches, I admit that the "style" of the worship service was an adjustment. (Our church did a sermon series on this very topic a while back called "You've Got Style," which I recommend.) But to every week be awed by God working in this environment, to see and hear the testimonies given by people to be baptized,who would never have darkened the door of a more traditional church, about how they have developed a personal and growing relationship with Christ, is a real privilege. The bottom line by which to judge any church is not the size or style of the church, but whether it is effectively serving as the Body of Christ.

When people say hard issues, they often mean homosexuality and a abortion. I remember one Evangelical Church I attended that hit on those two issues twice a month. Having returned to the Catholic Church, I think I've heard homosexuality discussed once and that was immediately followed up by a longer discussion on divorce. I hear abortion prayed about more often. Typically we'll have one or two sermons on it in a year. The point is that a lot of folks pat themselves on the back saying that their church engages in hard issues. Most of the time, those hard issues don't effect members of the congregation. A hard issue is a Catholic priest talking about the evil of contraception. I have heard several stories of parishoners interupting the sermon and arguing with the priest. Many are attacked after the service for talking about it. We don't want to offend our donors either, but when was the last time you heard a sermon about using God's resources to build a McMansion?