Irony

Sharpton undermining America, I think he gives the man too much credit.

I suggest a theme for conservatives on this thread: When did you finally realize that the excuses for Rush had run out? In my case,the Donovan McNabb debacle.

Until Rush admits that America is where we are because jocks like those at Duke weren't drafted (why bother risking life and limb when wee housewifes from Old Europe do the job for us?) and that privatizing social security by outsourcing failed 'cos the progeny of "Pop, lock and drop it" generation were written-off the books in the first, second or even third quarters (> 5 million Americans have been aborted in their first, second or third trimester since the Iraq war began). God help us!

Limbaugh can sometimes be satirical
Derek, I've only read a little of Limbaugh, but would bet you are absolutely right here; dude's got twisted humor.
Irony indeed! Rod, you are falling for it every time you smell a chance to jab a righty...

Nonetheless, Limbaugh is no moralist. Further, the Duke men are not saints just because they didn't rape or attack the girl. Gosh, they're not saints. Who the hell is? They've been viciously slandered, not just by the preening prosecutor, but by every self-loathing white liberal and vengeance-seeking black radical in the land. They deserve a few moments of unalloyed vindication to compensate for the months of lies and insinuations thrown their way.

Irony indeed! Rod, you are falling for it every time you smell a chance to jab a righty... M_David, do you think I even care about liberal talk-radio figures enough to comment on what they say?

M_David, do you think I even care about liberal talk-radio figures enough to comment on what they say? Zing! Uncle.

Well, guy athletes at a Southern college may not be exemplars of sanctity, but last time I looked it up, ogling a stripper and chugging beer was crass but not felonious. To pursue meritless felony charges for political advantage or to support such a prosecution for ideological or racial reasons is shameful, even if the defendants were beer-guzzling libertines, which I don't know to be the case. Sharpton and Jackson don't just have logs in their eyes--they've got the whole forest. If more young black men stayed in school, stayed out of jail, and married their children's mothers, maybe women like the accuser would be doing something better than stripping.

Thanks for posting this, Rod. I agree with Caleb Stegall. I don't care what Al Sharpton said, and I don't care whether Rush Limbaugh was serious or not. The Duke lacrosse team most probably did not commit rape--certainly, there was not enough evidence to have warranted their prosecution. Nifong behaved with egregious misconduct. The media showed disregard for the facts. You can take all the above as stipulated. But "unalloyed vindication"? I think not. When all is said and done, these young men, blessed with strength, opportunity and status, couldn't think of anything better to do with all that than to get drunk and hire women to degrade themselves for their pleasure. When the strippers failed to perform up to their desires, they insulted them some more. One of the women apparently was unwell, probably high, and apparently told retaliatory lies about them. Maybe if the team had treated her with decent respect and offered her assistance--a dab of that famous chivalry for which we so often look in vain--this whole thing would never have happened. It's not as if the team was in the library studying and was suddenly attacked by the evil liberal media. They brought it on themselves. Rather than feeling vindicated, I think these guys should be thankful that their disgraceful behavior will be allowed to fade from public view. I hope they'll spend some time in the near future feeling ashamed of themselves and reflecting on how to be more worthy, in the future, of the blessings they've been given. No, it's not illegal to get drunk out of your mind, hire strippers and then insult them. It's just wrong. Yes, I'm relieved that these men won't be sent to prison for crimes they didn't commit. But if this is going to be framed as some kind of moral victory for conservatives, count me out. If these guys ever came within a hundred yards of my daughters, they'd be invited to amuse themselves elsewhere, with my boot in their rear ends.

I've noticed a trend with the right-wing hate radio types that they love to claim "satire" when their viler comments are reported. Limbaugh does a lot of "A Modest Proposal" sort of bits. He takes a liberal position to logical extremes to point up an absurdity. What's described here sounds a lot like one of those bits. Maybe it's not, and maybe he was in earnest, but I kind of doubt it.

Hey! Why argue the point when we can go to the Rush Limbaugh Show's transcript? (Paragraphs inserted for readibility.) In it, Rush recounts a conversation that took place between Anderson Cooper and Rev. Jackson:
"Anderson Cooper says, "Wait a second. If that's a crime," watching nekkid [It's naked, by the way, Reverend Jackson. - Limbaugh] "If that's a crime, watching naked women dance, then most of the men in America should be arrested. There's a strip joint a couple blocks from my home," Anderson Cooper said. JACKSON: Most men in America don't do that, shouldn't do that, and when they do it, it is never right. It is -- in fact when you reduce women to dance before you nekkid, it's the first step towards domestic violence. RUSH: Oh, my golly gosh! Listen to that! As though these women are members of a slave troupe; they are in bondage, and they are dragged out before the polls at the Bada Bing.
They are dragged out at all these strip clubs, and they are forced to dance nekkid! "It's the first step toward domestic violence."
The dirty little secret here is some of these women dance nekkid -- and I'm not talking about this babe (well, it might be) -- a lot of them are single mothers. They're divorced, and they can earn a hundred grand a year at a good club doing this sort of stuff, and they're protected.
This is the hypocrisy. The Reverend Jackson will climb over anybody who violates his boundaries and his rules but he has no boundaries. He has no rules. He never has to apologize like I told you. Minorities never do anything for which they have to apologize."

Shall I paraphrase? Okay, thanks. Rush was pointing out the remarkable silence of Jackson with regard to black women strippers (who make it their career choice) and why that is not morally problematic with Jackson.
It is because they, according to Limbaugh, are protected from public condemnation from the likes of Jackson. Hardly sounds like an endorsement to me.

Many years ago, when I actually listened to Rush, there was an incident where a group of strippers in San Diego resorted to creative advertising by cavorting naked on the deck of a boat in sight of navy ships that were coming into port. Rush's reaction at the time was to say."Bless their hearts."
Much later the thrice divorced Rush was caught smuggling viagra while traveling from some sort of activity in the Domincan Republic with an all male group. Methinks the man is a perv.

Well, Caleb, what is the point?
Did the Duke boys do wrong hiring a stripper for a college party? Well, in a strict moral sense, yes. But plenty of non-Christians would not accept that. What do we really know beyond that - I mean know, without any of the 'ifs' that have become so popular around here lately? What do the Duke boys need to be exonerated from other than sexual idolatry, perhaps? All of these acts that have been proven in the Duke case were consensual. Conservatism (in a classic liberal sense) says this type of behavior - from the Dukies and the strippers - is one of the prices we pay for freedom. What does Caleb recommend?

For the record, I smelled a rat when this story first broke. I ve never believed the Duke team committed rape, and I ve said so throughout this sorry mess. I detest lies, and I think if any of the stripper s supporters were her real friends, they d have gotten her into rehab and a job placement program before she messes up her child s young life. That said--again--I m amused but a bit surprised that I preached a stirring sermon against immorality in this venue and couldn t get a single amen. Point taken, gentlemen. Boozing and baying at strippers: tacky, but not really wrong. The price we pay for freedom. Nice phrase. Good to know what the standards are. I ll remember that for the future.

Can I be the first person here to truly, unapologetically blame the victim? Like I tell my kids, if you participate in certain activities, travel with certain groups or allow yourself to get in certain situations, you run the risk of unintended consequences. If you go to a strip club or rent a woman to take her clothes off for you, then you are choosing to be in a situation with dirtbags (and you are being one). Dirtbags are much more likely to file false rape charges than non-dirtbags. Likewise, if you choose to be a hooker (even the dancing type), you are much more likely to be raped or mugged or killed. If these boys hired this gal to serve drinks as a "hand-up" type of charitable action, I would feel sorry for them, but they didn't. They went into this transaction thinking that the worse thing that could happen would be having a professor see the girl enter their house and form a negative opinion of them. In reality, the list of possible adverse outcomes is much longer and much worse.

You have an "amen" from me, sigralis!

Oh, and another thing... Grumpy Old Man referred to Duke as a southern college. Yes, but... Seligman, Finnery and Evans are from New Jersey, New York and Maryland, respectively. (The number 2 state of origin for Duke students is New Jersey.) We southerners do tire of the last acceptable prejudice, implied in G.O.M's pointing out that "guy athletes at a southern college" may not be role models to begin with.

They have indeed been through the ringer, and I'm glad they were exonerated. But attending a party where "Thank your granddaddy for picking cotton so we can wear these Izods" was yelled at the two women (witnessed by neighbors) is nothing to be proud of. Those young men have more to contemplate, in shame, than hiring a stripper.

But attending a party where "Thank your granddaddy for picking cotton so we can wear these Izods" was yelled at the two women (witnessed by neighbors) is nothing to be proud of. Did these three men say that? Is there any evidence they did? If not ... why is it relevant? If so ... is filing a false rape charge a defensible-if-disproportionate response or one so outrageous as to erase the initial wrong (like shooitng someone over a fender bender, say) Further ... and I'm gonna say this carefully ... if there was an altercation at the party ... the race card can be played in both directions, and once "fighting" words have been said in one direction, they will almost certainly come back in the other. It's the very logic of "fighting" (in all its senses).

That may be the first time I ever cheered Ann Coulter. However, I feel sure that if I read her entire transcript, I would find some place where she undermined her credibility.
PS: Re; her points about the stripper/hirers, etc. Good points all. But it was, fyi, never made clear exactly who hired the stripper in the first place. I doubt the guys themselves were her employers, although it does not matter. I was horrified when friends sent a stripper to me for my 40th birthday who wanted to sit on my lap and rubbed her breasts into my face. I wondered then if people just trying to 'have fun' realized 1) this is no way to do it 2) as a male raised by flaming feminists, this was hardly appropriate. 3) What are the legal implications here? PS: The co-ed stripper made $500 (plus tips) in 30 minutes. Working through law school. SMU. Rest my case.

PS -- I should probably add, in case it should become an issue, that *none* of these students were at the institution where I currently teach!

"Limbaugh does a lot of "A Modest Proposal" sort of bits. He takes a liberal position to logical extremes to point up an absurdity. What's described here sounds a lot like one of those bits. Maybe it's not, and maybe he was in earnest, but I kind of doubt it." I heard it (six hours in the car gives you the opportunity to listen to all sorts of things). Not as elegant as Dean Swift, but the same impulse, no question.

As for "pretty close to a death sentence"--have you completely lost faith in the judicial system? There was NO EVIDENCE. The case didn't even go to trial. I don't think a jury would have convicted them, even if it had. Excuse making. Incompetence and/or failure in one's bid to do wrong (lying, falsely convicting, public smearing, legally railroading the innocent into jail) is not a relevant moral defense. The fact that one's lies (I'm referring to both the stripper Crystal Gale Mangum and the DA Mike Nifong) were not likely to succeed IYHO doesn't change the fact that what these people TRIED to do, and succeeded in quite a few of the preliminary steps, was to put innocent men in jail for decades. Nor does that speak to the disgraceful words and behavior of Duke, its faculty, the PC media, the critical-race-theory peddlers, the Sharptons and Bakers of the world -- which had nothing to do with the narrow legal outcomes which you so confidently speak (I'm glad to see you have some faith in Southern juries now). Whatever the legal outcome, these players spent a year being unendingly vilified as symbols of racism, sexism and class privilege (some professor or "student activist" somewhere has probably tossed homophobia too). Based on lies. And lies that too many were too eager to believe based on who these men were and others' preconceptions about what "people like THAT" are like. This is the Scottsboro Boys case for the PC era.
And raising the bugaboo of "vindictive black prisoners" is distasteful rhetoric, at best. I suggest you calm down. And I suggest you wake up. Do you really think that, had things gone according to Mangum's and Nifong's plan (keep in mind the way this case already had been made into a racial narrative, and now imagine months more of that during the trial) ... that had this played out, that all the racially-profiled blacks filling America's jails wouldn't have seen THESE defendants -- white, well-off and with ... shall we say, no prison cred -- as low-hanging fruit. That black prisoners are such angels as not to want to take it out on such inviting symbols of The Man. Get real. Nobody who would dismiss that possibility as "distasteful rhetoric" has any idea about the realities of life in America's prisons where race is everything.
I don't wish to punish these young men for their race or class. So you say. And yet you not only perpetuate the narratives that allowed this attempted railroading to happen, but insist on every note condemning these men over hiring Mangum while at the same time (1) not condemning her for stripping (if it was wrong for them to participate in the transaction, it was wrong for her to do so also); (2) only suggesting vis Mangum that she should have gotten job training and (3) saying quite bluntly that the most-important concern was this case not "be framed as some kind of moral victory for conservatives." I said to my boss. "I'll accept injunctions about the immorality of watching strippers from my confessor, the Church, my parents, etc. Not from the MSM or other liberal libertines who rail against sexual modesty and tear down sexual morality in every other context but, in this case, are merely condemning watching strippers in order to cling to one last apparently-legitimate reed on which to condemn the Duke Boys (this last phrase being their Alpha and Omega of their race-, sex- and class-addled worldview).
What I would consider appropriate is for ALL the media hacks to shut their pieholes and allow the players to go away quietly. Yeah ... so then media hacks can go back to important things like some shock jock who used the term "nappy-headed hos," thus typing a college-sports team based on who they are in terms of race, sex and class. We can navel-gaze over that some more without being distracted by such trivial concerns as a college-sports team being typed based on who they are in terms of race, sex and class. Oh ... and threatened not implausibly with 30 years in jail and millions of dollars in fines (i.e., lawyers fees ... wait ... that part was successful).

'In fact, it is bitterly fitting that this scandal took place at Duke, former home of Stanley Fish and his postmodern English department, proponents of the recent fads in academic theories that deny the possibility of truth and objectivity and replace them with the notion of multiplicities of narratives arising from different social circumstances." Carol Iannone

James Kabala, you may Google neighbor (of the rental house)Jason Bissey's comments to the Raleigh News and Observer. There is no evidence that Finnerty, Seligman, or Evans made the remarks. One of them may have, or one of their teammates may have. And, Starrs, your assertion of "no surprise" that this happened at Duke (due to some postmodernist fool of an English professor)fails to note that idiotic professors abound at most universities. It also offends me, as my late father-in-law was a professor at Duke's well-known and -regarded Divinity School.

Osvaldo Mandias, you are a funny guy. Thanks for the touch of much-needed humor. I'm imagining an expansion of your brilliant concept--the Wolfe Scale, something like the Beaufort Scale for wind, or the Fujita Scale for tornadoes. Wolfe Damage of 5, combining all the features of Charlotte Simmons, Bonfire, A Man in Full, Mau-Mauing the Flak Catchers, and The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test (or five of your own choosing), would induce despair of apocalyptic, hallucinatory proportions. A 6 would bring the jet stream to earth, and a 7 would wipe the planet clean of all intelligent life.

Susan, get off your high horse and read the author of the quote. Hint: I'm not Carol Iannone. Given the topic of this thread, maybe you should lighten up. Oh, and I got my graduate degree at Duke.

If the Dems wish to lose the White House, again, keep this PC stupidity going. Keep Sharpton and Jackson out front. Have Obama hang out with Ludcris and take money from Geffen and Interscope.
Have Hillary! take money form rap producers.
As big a mess as the Rs may be, this silliness is practically an ironclad guarantee to keep the White House red.

I could think of some groups you gentlemen might fit in with, but I take your words at face value as being your own views... And BTW ... don't think I won't remember this and hold you to it if our paths should ever cross here. In my experience, most liberals or leftists can't even go three posts without imputing a false view ("you hate gays," say).

As big a mess as the Rs may be, this silliness is practically an ironclad guarantee to keep the White House red. And what POSSIBLY could this nonsense have to do with who ends up in the White House, unless you're saying that the Red Staters vote from their misguided sense of outrage at continued challenges to white privilege.

Also, you can severely reduce your chances of being raped if you do not go to strange men's houses and take your clothes off for money.... Actually, saying this on an American college campus in the last 20 years can bring you up on charges under PC speech code and, even apart from that, endless campus vilification by date-rape-feminists-in-search-of-a-cause. (I speak from personal experience here.) Within two degrees of repetition, that phrase will become "the bitch was asking for it," and that will be cited as though it was the initial quote because it is after all, what you really meant (this effect has since been named "The Mark Shea Process"). The specific instance of noting that whorish behavior increases your risk of being treated like a whore (rather than "individual responsibility for your own actions") is alternately called "blaming the victim," "fear of female sexuality" and "the patriarchal double-bind"

bunch of affluent white kids hire a brown woman Did they ask for black strippers? Unless they did, how is that *white* privilege?
other white partygoers hurl racially-charged epithets at her Did she hurl any at them? Some of the ones I've heard attributed to the Duke lacrosse team (with, of course, not a shred of evidence that it was any of THESE 3 railroaded men) seem like very specifically rebuttal or "counterpunch" lines.
everyone is so blase' and "boys will be boys" about it. A year of false rape charges, $3 million in lawyers fees and a year of vilification on exactly the grounds you're doing hardly strikes me as blase. YMMV though. If the perps are "affluent white kids."

Tv- If you want middle (and admittedly largely white) America to not vote for you, have Shaprton ajnd Jackson and their out-of-control attention-starved egoes front and center.
Ask John Kerry, who stupidly allowed Sharpton and Jackson on the platform with him the night of his nomination.
Ask Ned Lamont, who allowed the same dumb thing the night he beat Lieberman in the Conn. Primary-and promtpty watched his lead evaporate.
All fine and good the cash-carrying twosome bagged some wrinkly old white guy for using words rappers use like pronouns. But the message their presence sends is that the Dems still would rather play identity politics than deal with real issues;that they aren't serious people.This is a game; an angle; a scheme.
There's a groundswell for a serious anitwar candidate that talks to us like we're adults. But anyone coddling this bunch is hanging with people who look at Americans as a bunch of marks to be fleeced. And AMericans know it. People know instinctively that if you allow these charlatans and hucksters near the center of government, they will rob us all blind.

Let me try this again with a cooler head--if anyone s still reading this topic. This morning s New York Times held a brief article by Peter Applebome, After Duke Prosecution Began to Collapse . . . found here: http://select.nytimes.com/2007/04/15/nyregion/15towns.html Houston Baker, of the Duke English department, is quoted as having accused the mother of one of the accused of being a provocateur who was trying to get credit for a bunch of scummy white males. He said she was the mother of a farm animal. This was in response to her request for an apology after the charges were dropped. This is an outrage. It is outrageous that anyone should be subjected to this kind of invective, especially when the hateful rhetoric is applied after the public record showed that no crime had occurred, and that the targets of the hate were in fact the victims of a serious injustice. I repeat, I m grateful that the charges were dropped without trial, and I add, I feel sorry for these young men because I m sure they and their families have suffered a lot because someone lied about them. It was wrong, it was unfair, it was cruel. Public figures who used this affair for their own purposes should apologize. They should feel ashamed of themselves. As we all know, though, they won t. They ll just skip merrily off to the next thing. And so it goes. Okay, that s part one. Part two has no bearing on the verdict for this particular crime, but it seems to me it is equally important. It is why I cannot accept these young men as symbolic heroes of a conservative cause. They are not rapists. According to many witnesses, they are actually among the better representatives of the team and were considered nice young men of good character. And yet, they were part of a culture where it was considered normal to go to parties where nice young men routinely got drunk and watched women take off their clothes and act out sexually for money. Racial animosity lay so close to the surface that when team members got mad, ugly racial taunts came easily to their lips.
After the accusations were made, team member Ryan McFadyen wrote this e-mail to his fellow players ([sic] throughout): tommrow night, after tonights show, ive decided to have some strippers over to edens 2c. all are welcome.. however there will be no nudity. i plan on killing the bitches as soon as the walk in and proceding to cut their skin off while ****ing in my duke issue spandex.. all in besides arch and tack please respond The three accused players are not directly responsible for what a friend of theirs may say. That s not my point here. This is my point: when the accused return to their normal lives--as they should, as is their right--THIS is part of what their normal is. And to many in this world, that will seem perfectly okay. What nice, Christian young men do in their college years or their spare time, even if it involves attitudes and actions that degrade and reduce women and people of color, is considered trivial, incidental, harmless and excusable. Provided no actual crime is committed, no blame should be assigned. No harm, no foul. It is unquestionably a shame and a pity that young men who have committed no crime should be the targets of a hailstorm of insult and accusation. But is it not also a terrible shame and pity when people who call themselves conservatives can gloat and exult over a return to this kind of normal ? Blind privilege and callous exploitation does exist, and it has made a lot of people very angry--justly so. How can we claim we re offering our culture a better, more humane, more noble, more Christian way of life, and yet shrug off and wish away these deep injustices? That s why I require a better grade of hero.

Sigaliris, Well stated. Brava!