Last night at bedtime, I read around in E.B. Sledge's WW2 memoir "With the Old Breed." Not the thing to read before sleep. Sledge was a Marine who fought heroically on Peliliu, Okinawa and other island hellholes. He writes of...
Your white flag can double as toilet paper, thus saving the environment.
Rod Dreher
April 27, 2007 4:57 PM
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Real classy, Osvaldo. You don't have an answer, do you, only sneering, shallow personal insults. About like our vice president.
Bill
April 27, 2007 4:59 PM
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Rod, it is analysis such as yours that is causing me to seriously consider conservatism (at least, your brand of conservatism). For years, one of the things that kept me away from conservatives and conservative thought was what appeared to be a callousness toward war (perpetuated by Nixon, Reagan and the two Bushes). I am convinced that, if a peace-loving conservatism was articulated clearly to most Americans, many would gravitate toward it. Keep it up!
Derek Copold
April 27, 2007 5:11 PM
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It is clear that we cannot win in Iraq. We have to end this thing, and let the chips fall where they may. As someone who opposed the war before it began, I'm tempted to say "Amen." However, it's not that easy. The last thing I want now is another repeat of Pol Pot. We should leave as quickly as possible, but we should do so while setting up a system to prevent mass slaughter after our departure. This means effectively partitioning the country and separating potential combatants. It's not a perfect solution, and there'll be a lot of misery in the process, but it's better than a generation-long civil war.
Bob F
April 27, 2007 5:18 PM
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Tenet was the head of the CIA. He's not necessarily going to be in the administration debate about whether or not to go to war. He says he's not aware of any debate. That doesn't mean there wasn't one. Secondly, 535 members of Congress did have the debate and voted overwhelmingly to approve the action based in part on a document produced by Tenet's agency.
ScurvyOaks
April 27, 2007 5:23 PM
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And take heart in this: we lost Vietnam but still won the Cold War. But from a second Jimmy Carter, good Lord, deliver us.
Simon
April 27, 2007 5:27 PM
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Derek Copold: Excellent post. This was, indeed, a foolish war in so many ways. And the stubbornness of this President in refusing to acknowledge reality is only making the inevitable end worse. That said, you are right that we can't simply pull our troops out with no forethought or planning for what will likely happen next over that. To do that would be to compound the mistake the Administration made in going over there to begin with.
Franklin Evans
April 27, 2007 5:48 PM
http://madfedor.blogspot.com/
Lt. Col. Yingling is, from what I've read so far, a true patriot. Mr. Mandias, if you hold command rank and you have at your hand the details of the situation in Iraq, then I might sit still for such an untoward remark. Absent that, expressing how you feel about the situation might be better couched in terms one can respect. Just a thought, sir.
Rod Dreher
April 27, 2007 5:51 PM
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Tenet was the head of the CIA. He's not necessarily going to be in the administration debate about whether or not to go to war. He says he's not aware of any debate. That doesn't mean there wasn't one. The head of the Central Intelligence Agency is not going to be involved in such a debate? Really?
Maclin Horton
April 27, 2007 5:57 PM
http://www.lightondarkwater.com/blog
Without getting into the war debate, I strongly, strongly urge everyone who hasn't done so to read E. B. Sledge's book--at least, those of who've never experienced combat. I'll never again think about war without thinking of this book.
Zak
April 27, 2007 6:02 PM
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I don't know whether his critique of the upper levels of the officer corps is correct. It strikes me that it serves as preparation for ad hominum attacks against any generals who say we have to stay in Iraq because the alternatives are worse. If General Petraeus says we need to stay and give the new counter-insurgency strategy time, well, then he can just be dismissed as someone without the moral courage to stand up to his superiors, which seems to me to be just about the same as questioning the patriotism of those who found thought the war was imprudent in 2002-2003.
Claude
April 27, 2007 6:03 PM
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Nice post, Derek. Obviously, those of us who supported the war have every reason to be chagrined at the outcome. But one thing that continues to bother me about the anti-war side is their indifference to the possibility that a U.S. pullout will be quickly followed by a human rights catastrophe. For Rod to say, "let the chips fall where they may" strikes me as being very cold and callous. Whether you supported the war or opposed it, the fact that it took place does give us some moral obligations to the Iraqi people, especially to the people who are targeted for slaughter by armed militias.
Rod Dreher
April 27, 2007 6:06 PM
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For Rod to say, "let the chips fall where they may" strikes me as being very cold and callous. Whether you supported the war or opposed it, the fact that it took place does give us some moral obligations to the Iraqi people, especially to the people who are targeted for slaughter by armed militias. Let me clarify. I've written before that we have a moral obligation to give visas to every Iraqi and his immediate family who helped the US, no matter what. I also think we should offer visas to Christians and other religious minorities. When I say "let the chips fall where they may," what I mean is that we cannot save Iraq from itself, and if we think we can, we are just delaying the inevitable. If Iraq has taught us anything, it's the limits of American power to remake reality. I'm not trying to be cold, just realistic.
wm
April 27, 2007 6:55 PM
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Rod, when we bailed out of South Vietnam, we allowed a massacre of nearly 1 million Vietnamese, and the chaos that followed allowed the Khmer Rouge to return Cambodia to the stone age. We are bleeding American troops - 3,000+ so far - and that is very very bad. When we bail on Iraq, which you are advocating by using the intemperate language you are using, the consequences in Iraq will be as they were in SE Asia. If the mishandling of the insurgency is Bush's responsibility, the holocaust which results from our soldiers leaving will be the fault of those - left and right - who demanded that the only superpower left in the world, having encountered moderate resistance, give up and leave. The lack of historical perspective here is astounding. This war is nothing like fighting the Japanese at Iwo Jima. Say what you will about their savagery, Japanese soldiers were at least brave enough to stand and fight. We lost as many against Japan in a single DAY as we have lost in Iraq in an entire 5 year campaign!! We lost as many as we have lost in Iraq in HOURS during the Civil war, in battles the Union won!! We are policing an insurgency, arresting gangsters, extortionists, and fanatics who target civilians because they are incapable of doing anything but bombing or sniping at our military. When they stand and fight, we destroy them. Do you know how many stupid mistakes were made during WWII? You would have been demanding an end to it when the US troops hit Sicily! We were fighting SS battalions in Italy, not cowardly bomb builders. Rod, you have made a career attacking a quick McDonalds culture, but you are furious we cannot have a quick McDonalds war. Well, we had that, Gulf War 1. We left before much of anything challenging happened, and that led to a massacre of Shiites, an ineffectual blockade which starved non Sunni Iraqis while enriching its dictator, and left the stage set for our current action. I saw you speak in Indianapolis, I loved your talk, and my wife and I both loved your book, but you are exasperating on this subject. Grow up!! The very therapeutic instant culture you do not like is informing your view on this war! Did Bush screw up? Yes, usually only on days ending in "y." Were there enough troops? No, and there still aren't. Was the intelligence bad, or misunderstood? Yes. Were all our other wars perfectly executed? NO! Lincoln went through generals like toilet paper, Washington perfected the retreat, Wilson lied about keeping our boys out of war, Roosevelt did not take the Japanese threat seriously enough until after we lost 2/3 of our Pacific fleet, etc. The ONLY question that matters is, having contributed to this mess, are we then going to allow the post-pullout massacre. You want a lesson from Vietnam? There it is. You are morally responsible for that massacre if you keep beating the drums for withdrawal, just as Bush is for doing a very poor job managing the war. Petreus should have been put in charge two years ago, but unless you like the idea of bullet riddled Sunni babies and the gang rapes of minority Christians and the destruction of still more Shiite holy places and the carnage of a generation of civil war and the triumph or Iran in the region, grow up and give Petreus a chance to succeed. It is very easy to attack Bush - the man is an idiot. What requires a bit more fortitude is paying some kind of attention to the humanitarian debacle which will ensue the minute the last American chopper lifts off out of Sai - Baghdad. In the orgy of blood which follows, you and others who are not giving Petreus a chance to succeed will howl about Bush. But you will be responsible as well. Ask yourself this - how may years of horrific Civil War did it take Lincoln before he found a general who could do the job?
chris
April 27, 2007 7:05 PM
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why do you put such faith in a butt covering account from the man who said WMDs were a slam dunk? As though he does not have every selfish incentive now that the war is unpopular to try to distance himself from it. I wish we had not gone to Iraq, because the only pressing reason was the WMD threat and that threat was overblown. That does not mean the people in govt who believed Iraq had WMDs were liars or fools. and most of the people now crowing about the absence of WMDs were crying about Saddam using those weapons against us as a reason not to go to war. Finally, 'letting the chips fall where they may' as others have said is callous and short sighted. even if we issue visas to every Christian and active ally in Iraq, what of the millions who fall in neither camp yet are not ethnic cleansers or al Qaeda soulmates? Please explain why our departure will not mean more bloodshed for these average people
Franz
April 27, 2007 7:07 PM
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Rod, I don't see how your visa idea will ever fly. After all, how many people are you talking about? And, since the Sunnis are technically a religious minority (Iraq is majority Shiite), are you suggesting that we offer visas to all of the Sunnis? That strikes me as completely unrealistic. Worse, the problems posed by a collapsed Iraq (increased Iranian influence, freedom for Al-Queda sorts to move around, plan and collect resources; further decrease of stability) will have an influence beyond Iraq's borders, even if we are no longer there. When we went in, the more sober recognized that Iraq was like a vase in an antique shop -- you break it, you own it. We probably shouldn't have picked it up. But we did, we dropped it, we broke it, and now we have to clean up the mess.
Rod Dreher
April 27, 2007 7:08 PM
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The flaw in all that you say, WM, is the belief that we can keep Iraq from coming apart. If you can convince me that we can, I'll agree with you. Honestly. I know it will be complete hell when we leave Iraq. But I don't believe we can do anything more than delay the inevitable. Hell, the Iraqi parliament has just decided to take the summer off. All the benchmarks they were supposed to work on to bring the country together -- they'll get to it later. The truth is, they won't get to it, because there's little effective will among the Iraqi factions to compromise. I believe that all we can do is hold off the inevitable. I'd like to hear the case for why that is wrong. As you know, I feel an intense personal interest in this because I'm about to have a close family member go into that breach in Baghdad. My subjective status doesn't make my argument any more or less persuasive, but it does make me care a lot more about the men who die every day. They are not abstractions. If they must die, let them die for a worthy cause. Let them die to achieve something achievable. If they are dying, or coming home maimed, for the sake of a war that cannot be won because of factors outside their own control, then what's the point? I'm not asking rhetorically. I really want to know.
Bugg
April 27, 2007 7:10 PM
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VDH's NR column of day touches on something that should scare the hell out of Bush(but since he's a stubborn and foolish man, who knows?); American on the right no longer care about the ME, and as he puts it, "In short, America believes that the entire region is not worth the bones of a single Marine,"as the unexpressed soto voce thought of many Americans on the right. When I heard Bush babble on last Friday about "Iraqis yearning to breath free", the sense of anger and frustration was overwhelming.why waste bright and wonderful American young men and women on a foolish evil lot of scum like this? http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MTljYjgzNmRjOWY4ZjljZDJhODcxODhkNjhjZTExMTU=&w=MQ==
Rod Dreher
April 27, 2007 7:12 PM
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Please explain why our departure will not mean more bloodshed for these average people. It will. But we can't stop the civil war, only delay it, at mounting cost to ourselves. We probably shouldn't have picked it up. But we did, we dropped it, we broke it, and now we have to clean up the mess. What does that mean? What would cleaning up the mess look like? What should we do that our military is not doing now? How can we "clean up the mess" when the people on whose behalf we are supposed to be cleaning up the mess want us the hell out of the country? Rod, I don't see how your visa idea will ever fly. After all, how many people are you talking about? And, since the Sunnis are technically a religious minority (Iraq is majority Shiite), are you suggesting that we offer visas to all of the Sunnis? That strikes me as completely unrealistic. I'm talking about religious minorities (the Christians, the Yazidis) who have no larger community or regional allies that they can fall back on for protection).
Zak
April 27, 2007 7:23 PM
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Rod, What would it take to convince you that there was any possibility of success in Anbar? I agree that the political progress has been very frustrating, but I think we should give the counter-insurgency strategy time to work while applying political pressure. Evidence that it will succeed takes longer than a couple months of increased troop numbers in Baghdad. I fear it won't work, but I think it's better to give it a try and support it than give up yet.
Starrs
April 27, 2007 7:29 PM
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Rod, I share the same concern as a friend prepares to be deployed. We certainly agree that in hindsight the US should not have gotten involved in Iraq as we did - but that does us no good. Rumsfeld et.al. pursued a failing strategy for years; we agree on that, too. But I'm not sure that you can make the case that "it is clear we cannot win in Iraq". The only thing that's clear to me is that we entered the conflict with excessive hubris and not enough men. The question in my mind is not 'can we win' but 'will we do what is necessary militarily to win'. You shoudl read Joe Lieberman's comments from the Senate floor yesterday. Too long to post. This Yingley chap may be the greatest thing since sliced bread: but we have NO idea if he represents a mainstream position, or is even telling the truth. So far he has four peers coming out in disagreement - who's right? You're lionizing Yingley, what moral courage, and all that, but at the same time suggesting that Gen. Petraeus, that yutz, NOW he tells us. Doesn't he get some points for not sugar-coating things? I think we owe it to the troops sent to give the surge a (not unlimited) chance at turning the tide. Or at least being a bit more circumspect in announcing conclusions.
wm
April 27, 2007 7:32 PM
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I do not know that the war is winnable. But I do not believe that we should leave before Petreus' tactics get a chance to work. My childhood best friend served there as a corpsman, and I agree that it is terrifying to have a friend there. No, our thousands are not abstractions, BUT NEITHER ARE THEIR MILLIONS. I would argue this. Petreus is both an intellectual and a man of action, a rare combination. He has both the local knowledge and the historical perspective so many have lacked thus far. And, or course, he literally "wrote the book" on counterinsurgency. Thing is, no one was following his book. What Gen Petreus is doing is profoundly different at the tactical level from what had been being done up to now. I think it can work, to be honest. But these tactics are time consuming. They take months, not days. He will be integrating small groups of soldiers into Iraqi communities. Building up checkpoints each within sight of the next, police style stations, and other small institutional presences throughout trouble spots. Less green zone, more "broken windows policing." He will also be cultivating informers, not only by paying them, but by being close enough to them that they feel safe talking. This can work, but it takes time. It also means we need patience here at home. Was exporting John Locke at sword-point viable? No, fine, lesson learned. Were we going to be welcomed with open arms? - well we were by the Kurds, but other than that, no. Were there WMD's? No. Is mission accomplished? Duh. You know what? that doesn't matter at this point. What matters is that we give a counter insurgency expert time to counter an insurgency, without a constant drumbeat of despair energizing Al Quaeda in Iraq and that Sadr wacko. There is a larger problem here as well. If it is clear, from Vietnam, Somalia, and Iraq, that Americans cannot deal with insurgency tactics, there will be more of this stuff - not less. For our own military, and for the sake of our standing in the world, we have to beat this insurgency - or at least we need the chance to try to apply these tactics.
Bob F
April 27, 2007 7:36 PM
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The head of the Central Intelligence Agency is not going to be involved in such a debate? Really? Yes, really. You're taking Tenet's statement that he was not aware of a debate and concluding that there was no debate at all. It just doesn't follow Rod. I would also question why Mr Tenet is just now complaining about the misuse of his "slam dunk" comment. Seems a rather convenient excuse now that he thinks the whole war is a mistake.
Bugg
April 27, 2007 7:37 PM
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It's beyond the military. How can you save a people that don't want to be saved? The Vietnamese were at least rational people. The ananlogy doesn't remotely hold because the Iraqis and the entire ME subcribe to a religion and belong to a culture that are both far more alien to us than Vietnam ever was. If Bush wasn't literally prepared to burn down the village to save it, this was a collosal waste.The only thing these people respect is brute force. Fighting a PC war was the ulitmate in stupidity. And I write all this knowing I can expect my stepson to get out of Parris Island within the next 18 months to 2 years and be on his way there, if it isn't ended. I don't see sending more people to die making it any better. We're going to leave.Call it what ever, but let's go already.
Matt
April 27, 2007 7:37 PM
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If you think conservatives going to smile and stay silent over the prospect of thousands or tens of thousands of Arabs being admitted into this country, you're out of your blasted mind. They've spend years refining and injecting the image of the Arab bogeyman into just about everything--from illegal immigration to secret detentions to the Virginia Tech massacre. And with the 2008 election around the corner, not a single GOP candidate is going to say a word about it, fearing career suicide. Those Iraqis are about as screwed as they come. I didn't support this war, but now that we're there, I think we have to stick it out for the 10 or 12 or 20 years this is going to take. I think that because a majority of Americans supported this war, we ought to bring back the draft.
Irenaeus
April 27, 2007 7:52 PM
pomoconservative.blogspot.com
Friends, I got this from a friend doing clandestine stuff in Iraq. He or she is on the ground, and what s/he says makes me fear deeply for our Christian brothers and sisters over there. Bears on things people have been saying re: religious minorities and civil war. I've edited for length and a little for obscurity, and i'm curious what others think. "Hello, my friend. Sorry for the delay in writing. I'm been busy since my arrival, due to events you likely hear about every day. I'm reasonably happy, reasonably busy and reasonably safe, so don't worry about me. "The security situation here in the north is deteriorating rapidly, and the violence from Baghdad seems to be creeping northward, despite the coalition's best efforts to thwart it. I'm in the process of firing off a letter to the president of my alma mater...and the Archbishop of ... asking for their assistance. The north of Iraq has not seen the levels of violence that are in the news everyday, but things are getting worse. "There is a small but robust Christian community in Iraq that is coming increasingly under fire. If the Coalition pulls out of Iraq, I greatly fear they will suffer a holocaust not unlike that in WWII. We are already seeing attacks on Christian neighborhoods in Kirkuk increase. If the violence down south increases, the Christians will be caught in the crossfire, and will slaughtered by both the Sunnis and Shiites, as they are small in numbers and easy targets for executions. ...[T]here was a massive bombing of a police station next to a Christian school in the Rahimawa Neighborhood of Kirkuk, and many children were injured or killed. A lot of the Christian families are leaving for Syria and Lebanon, but many are too poor to leave, and will have no place to turn, should things continue to worsen. I'm not sure how much power you have to address these issues, but the time is fast approaching where we as Christians will need to do something to protect our brothers here in Iraq. I urge you to contact anyone you know who can help, and start a campaign to address this situation. Were specific religious communities and institutions in the U.S. willing to take in and "adopt" Christian families from Iraq, the U.S. State Dept. would probbly be more willing to allow them refugee status. I greatly fear for their safety, and of events to come if the Democrats force a withdrawl of troops. Abandoning Iraq will mean their assured slaughter. The holocaust of our time is unfolding, and their blood will be on our hands if we sit back and do nothing to stop it.
Pauli
April 27, 2007 8:22 PM
http://contrapauli.blogspot.com
[DELETE THIS]
cs
April 27, 2007 8:22 PM
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Several other commenters have noted this, but I also think it is far from "clear that we cannot win in Iraq." Petraeus' testimony is that there are steps forward and setbacks. Is is certain we will win? No, but it is also unclear that we will lose. Iraq has made many strides over time, not always on a timetable we would like, but progress has occurred. I don't know much about the current Iraq Parlaiment situation (based on comments here I plan to look into it a little), but I wonder if the withdrawal of the Sadr coalition from Parlaiment is creating current difficulties, but will be better in the long run? Also, the "civil war" is, in my mind, fomented and supported to some extent by external influence. I am hopeful that dealing with these influence will allow the "civil war" to resolve without necessitating dividing the country. FWIW.
reddopto
April 27, 2007 8:26 PM
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We can blame our officers, blame the CIA, blame the administration, or the anti-war advocates, but the fact is that a basic fallacy in the way we think about wars is the reason we lose wars. The basic fallacy is this: We think we can fight a war on humane terms and win. Clinging to the idea of a humane war is a sure formula for defeat. Sledge's war journal chronicled the inhumane nature of WWII. But, we won that one! We won by having our savagery exceed that of the Japanese and Germans (at least in terms of our ability to mete out mayhem on their civilian populations.) It's O.K. to be in favor of peace. In fact, realizing the fallacy of the humane war concept may help a people not choose to go to war. A nation would maintain peace simply because they realize the savagery they may have to participate in to get a military victory is unacceptable. A simple fact seems established by history: Wars are won by those who can out-brutalize their enemies. If you have no taste for that sort of thing, you'd better look for every opportunity to stay on the sideline.
cs
April 27, 2007 8:35 PM
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"Wars are won by those who can out-brutalize their enemies." War is hell. But your comment is wrong. The Allies hardly "outbrutalized" the genocidal Nazis. They did suck it up and do what was necessary, including some brutal acts (Hiroshima comes to mind- hope this doesn't open another can of worms.) Demoralizing the enemy is key, and FORCE that overwhelms an enemy is key to victory. BRUTALITY is not. (Maybe I'm putting too fine a point on the distinction, but I think it is necessary).
Franklin Evans
April 27, 2007 8:46 PM
http://madfedor.blogspot.com/
CS, War is capable of changing everything while it continues. Prior to Hiroshima, there was the London blitz, and the firebombing of Dresden (some say in retaliation for London). These were just the larger and better reported acts of "brutality". Your can of worms goes away when a person is capable of bringing a rational eye to war: when everything is defined as brutal (and I see no reason to not apply that label to war), then discussions of "brutality" become moot. After the war is over, or at least after the battle is over, there is time and space to decide what was and was not rationally an act of war. For another aspect on brutality, read up on the many attempts by both sides to use propagandist tactics to win battles without guns and bombs. In Iraq, we are very much at a loss without understanding the cultural context in which the acts of war occur, there.
Franklin Evans
April 27, 2007 8:52 PM
http://madfedor.blogspot.com/
Irenaeus, with all due respect to the grief your friend is witnessing: why are there still Christians there? If your friend is correct, and a WWII "style" holocaust is in the offing, night-time treks across the desert to a friendly border would seem like a sane alternative to staying where they are. There is no polite way to put this: people who put pride and place over the prospect of certain death do not deserve my sympathy. They can have their Alamo if they want it. If they have children, all the more reason to disdain their choice to stay. Sorry, but lessons of the past that go unlearned are difficult to bear seeing repeated.
cs
April 27, 2007 8:55 PM
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Franklin, As always, you have a cogent response. In many ways, any act of war can be defined as "brutal." My response above is to the idea that we have to "out-brutalize" the enemy to be victorious in conflict. It is in fact possible to be a disciplined military force operating under "civilized" rules of engagement and yet defeat insurgents who will, for example, kidnap reporters and behead them on video. As to the cultural context, I believe it is crucial to project strength. I believe that force must be targeted but decisive, if "victory" is to be achieved in Iraq.
reluctant penitent
April 27, 2007 9:01 PM
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You can withdraw the troops from the Iraqi front in the war against the jihadists but you'll just have to transfer them to another front in the near future. Once Iraq becomes a safe haven and source of funds for the jihadists, does anyone seriously believe that they are going to stop attacking the US? Thank God a slim majority of American appears to continue to be opposed to surrender in Iraq: A Bloomberg poll reveals 61% of Americans believe withholding funding for the war is a bad idea, while only 28% believe it is a good idea (3/3-11, 2007). A recent Public Opinion Strategies (POS) poll found that 56% of registered voters favor fully funding the war in Iraq, with more voters strongly favoring funding (40%) than totally opposing it (38%); (3/25-27, 2007). POS found also that a majority of voters (54%) oppose the Democrats imposing a reduction in troops below the level military commanders requested (3/25-27, 2007). A separate POS poll finds 57% of voters support staying in Iraq until the job is finished and the Iraqi government can maintain control and provide security for its people. And 59% of voters say pulling out of Iraq immediately would do more to harm America s reputation in the world than staying until order is restored (35%); (2/5-7, 2007). A Fox News/Opinion Dynamics poll show 69% of American voters trust military commanders more than members of Congress (18%) to decide when United States troops should leave Iraq. This includes 52% of Democrats, 69% of Independents and 88% of Republicans (3/27-28, 2007). According to a recent Pew Research survey, only 17% of Americans want an immediate withdrawal of troops (4/18-22, 2007). That same poll found a plurality of adults (45%) believe a terrorist attack against the United States is more likely if we withdraw our troops from Iraq while the country remains unstable Should a date for withdrawal be set, 70% of American believe it is likely that insurgents will increase their attacks in Iraq starting on that day. This is supported by 85% of Republicans, 71% of Independents and 60% of Democrats. (FOX News/Opinion Dynamics, 4/17-18, 2007). An LA Times/Bloomberg polls reveals that 50% of Americans say setting a timetable for withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq hurts the troops, while only 27% believe it helps the troops (4/5-9, 2007). (http://corner.nationalreview.com/)
reluctant penitent
April 27, 2007 9:04 PM
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This is exactly then kind of panicked nonsense that went on during the cold war. Regan prevailed, eastern europeans are free, and the appeasers were and continue to be a moral disgrace.
Zak
April 27, 2007 9:05 PM
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Franklin, As Americans, we are all descendents of people who packed up and left at some point. We don't value attachment to a certain place/homeland the way many people do. Christians have been in Iraq since the second century (or earlier). To say, you aren't deserving my sympathy because you haven't left your home to face poverty in a refugee camp (where you may continue to be persecuted for your religion) seems a little harsh. What friendly borders are there for Iraqi Christians? Iran? Turkey? Syria? Saudi Arabia? Certainly none of those. Jordan and Kuwait aren't much better.
reluctant penitent
April 27, 2007 9:10 PM
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"...Reagan..."
Franklin Evans
April 27, 2007 9:13 PM
http://madfedor.blogspot.com/
Zak, You add an important point to my statement, and I agree: there is no simple way to state the case, and consequences are important to consider regardless of which choice is made. But, in the end, standing there (in my imagination) with my children and wife huddled close by, I still see a very human choice: stay and die, or find the possibility of life somewhere else. Most of my maternal extended family, Jews all, died after attempting to escape death at the hands of the Nazis. I'm here today only because my mother's family succeeded (barely, and over a four-year period) where the rest of them did not. If making that my standard is harsh, I must accept the criticism.
Franklin Evans
April 27, 2007 9:18 PM
http://madfedor.blogspot.com/
CS, Having recently visited Gettysburg, your final comment reminds me of what I learned there about one phase of the battle. The Union commander holding Little Round Top, seeing that his ammunition was down to one final round, chose to charge the Confederate forces -- downslope over many rocks -- in the hope that he would at least reduce the strength of the force that would hold the strategic point after him. The Confederates, not knowing that detail about the ammo, and not knowing the actual strength of the charge, turned and fled. As for the rest, I hope you are correct, but that hope is very small. Ask any military historian about guerilla tactics and their effectiveness against a conventional force.
Starrs
April 27, 2007 9:19 PM
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I don't think making that your standard is harsh at all. But aren't you at risk of making that a standard you judge everyone else by, thereby imputing it to me? D'oh! Ah forget it. It's Fridy. God bless y'all.
Derek Copold
April 27, 2007 9:20 PM
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If your friend is correct, and a WWII "style" holocaust is in the offing, night-time treks across the desert to a friendly border would seem like a sane alternative to staying where they are. That is what's going on. The Christians are moving in large numbers to Syria, which, ironically, treats religious minorities far better than most of our allies in the region. Vide Egypt or Saudi Arabia.
Neil
April 27, 2007 9:46 PM
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For those of you who are fans of Sledge's book, you should know that HBO has greenlit a mini-series based partly on it. Hanks and Spielberg are teaming up for another "Band Of Brothers" type series, but this one focused on the Pacific theater. Details at http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117963752.html?categoryid=1238&cs=1&p=0. Neil
fbc
April 27, 2007 10:04 PM
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For the second time in a generation, the United States faces the prospect of defeat at the hands of an insurgency. In April 1975, the U.S. fled the Republic of Vietnam, abandoning our allies to their fate.... Trouble being, at least in Viet Nam the U.S. had allies. Who are our allies in Iraq? Some bureaucratic toadies esconsced in the Green Zone?
ScurvyOaks
April 27, 2007 10:04 PM
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Franklin Eavans, you write: "Ask any military historian about guerilla tactics and their effectiveness against a conventional force." There's a lot of scholarship on this, as you probably know, and the results vary, depending on how the conventional force responds. If it is not successful in adapting to (which sometimes means adopting) the non-conventional force's tactics, the conventional force will lose. But, as I've pointed before here, not all insurgencies win. Broad brush, the insurgents win about 2/3 of the time. Petraeus knows all this. I think Bush's biggest blunder was keeping Rumsfeld and Abazaid so long. If Bush had put Petraeus in charge 3 years ago, my guess is that things would be dramatically better know. For a whole bunch of reasons, including the political realities in the US, the odds of Petraeus pulling out a victory are pretty long now. J.L. Chamberlain's gamble at Little Round Top was amazingly effective. One of my great, great grandfathers, who was in Hood's Texas Brigade, was on the receiving end of the 20th Maine's charge.
Zak
April 27, 2007 10:04 PM
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Bubba, Your analogy doesn't work. Germany and Japan declared war on us (and Japan attacked us). The threat posed by Saddam in 2002-2003 was in no way as obvious.
kim margosein
April 27, 2007 10:14 PM
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Rod, I know this thesis has come up before, especially after VietNam. It makes a certain sense, but the logical leap from the generals saying "no" to a coup is rather short. It's rough, but I would prefer the generals to shut up and go along with whatever idiocy the current or future occupant of the WH cooks up than turning the US into a coup ridden caudillo state. Whatever we have learned from this mess, is that our liberties are fragile, and people will give them up far too easily. Let's not make it any easier Kim M
Franklin Evans
April 27, 2007 10:36 PM
http://madfedor.blogspot.com/
ScurvyOaks, I have no doubt that Petraeus knows precisely what he is in for, and what his chances are. I most fervently hope that he will get a "I am required to advise you" message to his CiC should it become necessary... an eventuality I fully anticipate, though I take no joy in it. I know too much (that also being nowhere near enough) to think that the peak troop levels in the "surge" will be enough to pacify the insurgency, unless "brutal" tactics as discussed are used by US forces... and with Viet Nam on everyone's mind, not to mention the prison fiascos, Petraeus may find his hands tied. Shrug. My brother made me buy a copy of The Killer Angels by Michael Shaara. It's second or third on my read-next list.
Mary Ann
April 27, 2007 10:54 PM
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Rod: More and more you sound like a one-man Andrew Sullivan amen chorus. Does it make you guys just plain feel good to strike your breast and say mea culpa, mea culpa, or what? May I say: Enough already. You really just can t say let s go to war and then when things get bad, say oh, no, I m not up for this, it s so brutal and nasty. And about Iraq being in a civil war -- may I recommend you read Michael Novak in today s National Review Corner blog? I know he s an evil neocon, but give it a try. You might actually learn something. Here s Novak: Two false assertions are being made these days about the Sunnis and the Shiites in Iraq. The first is that they have been fighting one another for ages. The second is that they are currently waging civil war upon one another. Shiites and Sunnis have lived in rather remarkable proximity in many cities of Iraq, with not a few intermarriages, and for many generations. They have often boasted of being Iraqis first, before being Sunnis and Shiites. The most influential Shiite Imam, Ayatollah Sistani, has been amazing for his peacekeeping and calming effect, urging the Shiites not to seek revenge and, instead, to turn to democracy and peaceful ways, rather than futile combat. In fact, Imam Sistani has been so successful at this preaching that, in desperation, al Qaeda dramatically changed strategy during 2005. They viciously destroyed the old, revered, beautiful golden dome of the mosque in Samarra. They stepped up their campaign to terrorize other Shiite mosques and the worshipers attending them. Al Qaeda members are virtually all Sunnis, from foreign countries, and they care not a whit either for Iraqi Shiites or Iraqi Sunnis. Their strategy for 2006 was to commit horrible atrocities against Iraqi Shiites, so that the hotheads among them would unleash death squads against the Sunnis in retaliation. Then the Sunnis would retaliate against the Shiites. This was not real civil war. It was a contrived and phony ploy to bait each side into fighting the other, while the foreigners waited to pick up the spoils. One has to remember that the foreigners who make up both al Qaeda and nearly all the (self-immolating) bombers are motivated by politics, not by faith in Islam. They have no hesitation about bombing mosques, murdering imams, or destroying hundreds of worshipers. They regard anyone who does not join their war of terror, even if they are Muslims, as infidels worthy of death. They will use any means necessary to keep their toehold in Iraq and to work to eventually take over Iraq for their own political purposes. This is not civil war in Iraq; it is a limited, strategic, and tactical ploy whereby foreigners try desperately to inflame Iraqis against one another. The aim of these foreigners is to bring about such a cataclysm of murder and insecurity and fear that their tiny, tiny minority can then capture total power -- just as the small minority of Bolsheviks did in the early rise of the Soviet Empire; just as the tiny bands of ruthless black shirts and brown shirts under Mussolini and Hitler spread social paralysis to launch the rise of Fascism. Mayhem requires only a ruthless few. Those who falsely call this a civil war in Iraq are conferring on al Qaeda a success that al Qaeda has not been able to bring about itself. They are puffing up a phony, contrived civil war far beyond the bounds of reality.
armchair pessimist
April 27, 2007 11:55 PM
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You seem to think this war is a lifestyle option: Don't like something? Walk away. That simple. But wait. You're right. This one is a lifestyle option. If you want the goddam oil this fatassed country lives on, your friend, your friend's kid, someday your kids, are going to be fighting in the middle east. Carp, whine, screech, moan, bitch, sulk, finger point all you want, it won't make any difference. Spoiled yuppie brats. That's what we are.
Alicia
April 28, 2007 12:54 AM
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I agree completely with those like Derek Copold, who say we can't just pull out our troops. Also I feel that people like Senator Lindsey Graham are closer to taking the correct position. Even though I feel the war was a blunder of huge proportions, as Graham said, the war will not end if we pull out our troops now. Not only is there a danger of a bloodbath, but there is also no guarantee the U.S. won't be drawn into a larger, regional conflict. I realize there are some anti-war people who believe that things will calm down when we leave. Unfortunately, I don't hear any anti-war people articulating what we should do if things don't calm down, if we find a Bosnia or Darfur-type situation developing. I feel that Bush is wrong about everything (related to the war) except this one thing -- we cannot withdraw our troops until we have stabilized the country and calmed things down.
reluctant penitent
April 28, 2007 1:14 AM
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"If you want the goddam oil this fatassed country lives on, your friend, your friend's kid, someday your kids, are going to be fighting in the middle east." This is not about oil but about war with the jihadists. If they win they will continue selling oil, just as the Iranians do. With they money they will buy bigger bombs and launch them at all of our asses, both fat and crunchy.
AnotherBeliever
April 28, 2007 5:02 AM
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If you want a really nasty read about warfare, try this one: A Long Way Gone, by Ishmael Beah. It's a first-hand account of a child soldier fighting in the brutal wars of Sierra Leone. READ IT. If close combat in the Pacific Theater doesn't touch your desensitized heart, then maybe drug-addled 13 year-old killers will. We soldiers who serve in Iraq and Afghanistan, even those of us who are not banging down doors on patrols, do feel a little bitter and alienated from the rest of you. Especially when you complain about little things. You are perfectly safe and have 18 brands of toothpaste to choose from. Your schools and buses are not blowing up everyday, you are not being mortared by night, you aren't spending parts of everyday trying to calculate if gunfire is being aimed AT you, and if so, how far away it is. We watch and experience these things every day. We come home, and people see us in uniform, and sort of look the other way. It ain't what it used to be. General Petraeus is rock star to us. He calls it like it is, acknowledges our hard work and sacrifice. He knows we might not succeed, that we will be in more danger for longer tours in country, and that many of us will die in the process. But his honesty and inspiration are enough to keep us going. When he says that more commitment is needed, and more over time, however, I hope that means more will be asked of the average American than an extended shopping spree. But even after Iraq, we have a long way to go. Especially since the current administration doesn't think too highly of diplomacy. I will go no further down that road. LTC Yingling's comments were published in an unofficial journal which openly states that its purpose is free and open discourse. He has a few good points. Conformity and loyalty and supremely important in the armed forces, ESPECIALLY in the higher ranks. Us juniors at the bottom of the heap can only cause so much damage by insubordination. But at the top, it risks everything below breaking down. Inexcusable in war or peacetime. The Lieutenant Colonel may well suffer for his words. But I hope that they will be heeded anyway. The loyalty must not extend past the point of moral courage. We have, as a nation, entrusted a great deal to General Petraeus. Let him play it out for another six months. Things are not going to work out perfectly to our advantage. A stable government in Iraq will likely NOT be a great power-sharer. The most likely outcome: it will be a Shia-dominated Iran-friendly government which will curtail sharply the civil liberties of its minority citizens (of a necessity, as the Sunnis will continue to cause mayhem until we withdraw, and then will tone things down but still cause damage on a regular basis.) If it can do this without killing or openly persecuting very many of them, I think we will have to take it, and hand power over to it, and go home somewhat gracefully. We may very well have to settle for stability only slightly better than Saddam's regime. Because I don't see partition working out peacefully. Read up on the split of India and Pakistan sometime. And I don't foresee these people willingly choosing to compromise. My heart goes out to those Iraqis who helped us, and who have fled Iraq for their lives, and who wait in refugee camps for someone to take them in. Our government has shown no signs of being willing to do this.
dub
April 28, 2007 5:32 AM
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Matt: I think that because a majority of Americans supported this war, we ought to bring back the draft. Of course, there would be an exemption to anyone who could prove that they thought this war to be folly from the night the first bombs dropped, right? Just checking. If we're going to reinstate the draft because "most Americans supported this war," then we should have an exemption for those who thought it was crass, overreaching, and unjustifiable to begin with, no?
Franklin Evans
April 28, 2007 2:05 PM
http://madfedor.blogspot.com/
Dub, what about "conscientious objector"? AnotherBeliever, I've never worn a uniform. I've never had any sort of military training. I know what war is like from my immigrant parents: my Jewish mother and family were hidden and protected by Italian farmers for 4 years; my father was a chetnik (let me know if you don't know that term, but he was a Lt. in the Serbian Army). I'm also 51, and I've lived most of my life in or near an urban center. I've witnessed murder, gang violence, and attended the funerals of neighbors killed in their homes or because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time during a drug war battle. My wife has taught for 35 years children of crack addicts, kids living in poverty most Americans can describe only because they've seen it in a movie. I know a few 13-year-olds. They live right around the corner from me. If you learn one thing during your service -- a service I, personally, will get down on my knees and thank you for without being asked -- it's that the vast majority of a society is exactly like me. We will never see a gun, hear a bullet meant for us go by, never see a human dead at our hands. If you are going to be proud of your service, be proud that you were one of the few who understood that our ignorance is the point of it all. But don't ever assume that we can't understand. Too many of us found that understanding before you were born. I believe we all need a stiff dose of reality once in a while. There are many who thought as you seem to see, that a soldier is worthy of contempt because his hands are dirty from his job (or he's a handy target for the present administration), but whose minds and hearts were opened by 9/11/2001. You may not meet them very often, but they are out there, in large numbers. Do not judge them by those whose ignorance is so strong that even a 9/11 is not enough to make them see. Come home safe and proud. Don't let the assholes sour it for you.
Rawlins Gilliland
April 29, 2007 4:03 PM
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I thought after Vietnam that in my lifetime I would never see this sort of quagmire war folly again. But I have lived long enough to see it in spades. The same arguments for 'staying the course'. The same accusations that those questioning the leadership were giving 'comfort to the enemy', undermining those 'in harm's way'. One cliche after another, another war 1/4 century later, when half the nation has only heard the word Vietnam but knows nothing of it other than it is where their GAP cargo shorts were made. All this serves to prove that Knowledge is indeed Power...and the lack thereof (sometimes called ignorance) is the REAL comfort given to any 'enemy', real or imagined.
Joseph D'Hippolito
May 2, 2007 4:12 AM
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Rod, you complain about the possibility of an open-ended commitment to Iraq. You forget that, once upon a time during the Big Bad Cold War, we had an open-ended commitment to Western Europe. Why? Because we realized that the Soviet Union was perfectly capable of taking over -- and that this, somehow, was considered intolerable. Of course, organizing the defense of Western Europe was far different than organizing the occupation of Iraq. But, once again, you are confusing and conflating two issues: the incompetence of an invariably short-term presidential administration with the necessity to confront an intractable enemy that thinks in terms of centuries. What we need is a new NATO consisting of nations that recognize the jihadist threat and are willing to join us in fighting it. India, Israel and Australia would make fantastic inaugural members of this organization; except for the UK, we can write off most of Western Europe in this venture, unfortunately.
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Rod Dreher is an editorial columnist for the Dallas Morning News, and author of "Crunchy Cons" (Crown Forum), a nonfiction book about conservatives, most of them religious, whose faith and political convictions sometimes put them at odds with mainstream conservatives. The views expressed in this blog are his own.
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Your white flag can double as toilet paper, thus saving the environment.
Real classy, Osvaldo. You don't have an answer, do you, only sneering, shallow personal insults. About like our vice president.
Rod, it is analysis such as yours that is causing me to seriously consider conservatism (at least, your brand of conservatism). For years, one of the things that kept me away from conservatives and conservative thought was what appeared to be a callousness toward war (perpetuated by Nixon, Reagan and the two Bushes). I am convinced that, if a peace-loving conservatism was articulated clearly to most Americans, many would gravitate toward it. Keep it up!
It is clear that we cannot win in Iraq. We have to end this thing, and let the chips fall where they may. As someone who opposed the war before it began, I'm tempted to say "Amen." However, it's not that easy. The last thing I want now is another repeat of Pol Pot. We should leave as quickly as possible, but we should do so while setting up a system to prevent mass slaughter after our departure. This means effectively partitioning the country and separating potential combatants. It's not a perfect solution, and there'll be a lot of misery in the process, but it's better than a generation-long civil war.
Tenet was the head of the CIA. He's not necessarily going to be in the administration debate about whether or not to go to war. He says he's not aware of any debate. That doesn't mean there wasn't one.
Secondly, 535 members of Congress did have the debate and voted overwhelmingly to approve the action based in part on a document produced by Tenet's agency.
And take heart in this: we lost Vietnam but still won the Cold War.
But from a second Jimmy Carter, good Lord, deliver us.
Derek Copold: Excellent post. This was, indeed, a foolish war in so many ways. And the stubbornness of this President in refusing to acknowledge reality is only making the inevitable end worse. That said, you are right that we can't simply pull our troops out with no forethought or planning for what will likely happen next over that. To do that would be to compound the mistake the Administration made in going over there to begin with.
Lt. Col. Yingling is, from what I've read so far, a true patriot. Mr. Mandias, if you hold command rank and you have at your hand the details of the situation in Iraq, then I might sit still for such an untoward remark. Absent that, expressing how you feel about the situation might be better couched in terms one can respect. Just a thought, sir.
Tenet was the head of the CIA. He's not necessarily going to be in the administration debate about whether or not to go to war. He says he's not aware of any debate. That doesn't mean there wasn't one. The head of the Central Intelligence Agency is not going to be involved in such a debate? Really?
Without getting into the war debate, I strongly, strongly urge everyone who hasn't done so to read E. B. Sledge's book--at least, those of who've never experienced combat. I'll never again think about war without thinking of this book.
I don't know whether his critique of the upper levels of the officer corps is correct. It strikes me that it serves as preparation for ad hominum attacks against any generals who say we have to stay in Iraq because the alternatives are worse. If General Petraeus says we need to stay and give the new counter-insurgency strategy time, well, then he can just be dismissed as someone without the moral courage to stand up to his superiors, which seems to me to be just about the same as questioning the patriotism of those who found thought the war was imprudent in 2002-2003.
Nice post, Derek. Obviously, those of us who supported the war have every reason to be chagrined at the outcome. But one thing that continues to bother me about the anti-war side is their indifference to the possibility that a U.S. pullout will be quickly followed by a human rights catastrophe. For Rod to say, "let the chips fall where they may" strikes me as being very cold and callous. Whether you supported the war or opposed it, the fact that it took place does give us some moral obligations to the Iraqi people, especially to the people who are targeted for slaughter by armed militias.
For Rod to say, "let the chips fall where they may" strikes me as being very cold and callous. Whether you supported the war or opposed it, the fact that it took place does give us some moral obligations to the Iraqi people, especially to the people who are targeted for slaughter by armed militias. Let me clarify. I've written before that we have a moral obligation to give visas to every Iraqi and his immediate family who helped the US, no matter what. I also think we should offer visas to Christians and other religious minorities. When I say "let the chips fall where they may," what I mean is that we cannot save Iraq from itself, and if we think we can, we are just delaying the inevitable. If Iraq has taught us anything, it's the limits of American power to remake reality. I'm not trying to be cold, just realistic.
Rod, when we bailed out of South Vietnam, we allowed a massacre of nearly 1 million Vietnamese, and the chaos that followed allowed the Khmer Rouge to return Cambodia to the stone age. We are bleeding American troops - 3,000+ so far - and that is very very bad. When we bail on Iraq, which you are advocating by using the intemperate language you are using, the consequences in Iraq will be as they were in SE Asia. If the mishandling of the insurgency is Bush's responsibility, the holocaust which results from our soldiers leaving will be the fault of those - left and right - who demanded that the only superpower left in the world, having encountered moderate resistance, give up and leave.
The lack of historical perspective here is astounding. This war is nothing like fighting the Japanese at Iwo Jima. Say what you will about their savagery, Japanese soldiers were at least brave enough to stand and fight. We lost as many against Japan in a single DAY as we have lost in Iraq in an entire 5 year campaign!! We lost as many as we have lost in Iraq in HOURS during the Civil war, in battles the Union won!!
We are policing an insurgency, arresting gangsters, extortionists, and fanatics who target civilians because they are incapable of doing anything but bombing or sniping at our military. When they stand and fight, we destroy them. Do you know how many stupid mistakes were made during WWII? You would have been demanding an end to it when the US troops hit Sicily! We were fighting SS battalions in Italy, not cowardly bomb builders. Rod, you have made a career attacking a quick McDonalds culture, but you are furious we cannot have a quick McDonalds war. Well, we had that, Gulf War 1. We left before much of anything challenging happened, and that led to a massacre of Shiites, an ineffectual blockade which starved non Sunni Iraqis while enriching its dictator, and left the stage set for our current action.
I saw you speak in Indianapolis, I loved your talk, and my wife and I both loved your book, but you are exasperating on this subject. Grow up!! The very therapeutic instant culture you do not like is informing your view on this war! Did Bush screw up? Yes, usually only on days ending in "y." Were there enough troops? No, and there still aren't. Was the intelligence bad, or misunderstood? Yes. Were all our other wars perfectly executed? NO! Lincoln went through generals like toilet paper, Washington perfected the retreat, Wilson lied about keeping our boys out of war, Roosevelt did not take the Japanese threat seriously enough until after we lost 2/3 of our Pacific fleet, etc.
The ONLY question that matters is, having contributed to this mess, are we then going to allow the post-pullout massacre. You want a lesson from Vietnam? There it is. You are morally responsible for that massacre if you keep beating the drums for withdrawal, just as Bush is for doing a very poor job managing the war. Petreus should have been put in charge two years ago, but unless you like the idea of bullet riddled Sunni babies and the gang rapes of minority Christians and the destruction of still more Shiite holy places and the carnage of a generation of civil war and the triumph or Iran in the region, grow up and give Petreus a chance to succeed. It is very easy to attack Bush - the man is an idiot. What requires a bit more fortitude is paying some kind of attention to the humanitarian debacle which will ensue the minute the last American chopper lifts off out of Sai - Baghdad.
In the orgy of blood which follows, you and others who are not giving Petreus a chance to succeed will howl about Bush. But you will be responsible as well. Ask yourself this - how may years of horrific Civil War did it take Lincoln before he found a general who could do the job?
why do you put such faith in a butt covering account from the man who said WMDs were a slam dunk? As though he does not have every selfish incentive now that the war is unpopular to try to distance himself from it.
I wish we had not gone to Iraq, because the only pressing reason was the WMD threat and that threat was overblown. That does not mean the people in govt who believed Iraq had WMDs were liars or fools. and most of the people now crowing about the absence of WMDs were crying about Saddam using those weapons against us as a reason not to go to war.
Finally, 'letting the chips fall where they may' as others have said is callous and short sighted. even if we issue visas to every Christian and active ally in Iraq, what of the millions who fall in neither camp yet are not ethnic cleansers or al Qaeda soulmates? Please explain why our departure will not mean more bloodshed for these average people
Rod, I don't see how your visa idea will ever fly. After all, how many people are you talking about? And, since the Sunnis are technically a religious minority (Iraq is majority Shiite), are you suggesting that we offer visas to all of the Sunnis? That strikes me as completely unrealistic. Worse, the problems posed by a collapsed Iraq (increased Iranian influence, freedom for Al-Queda sorts to move around, plan and collect resources; further decrease of stability) will have an influence beyond Iraq's borders, even if we are no longer there. When we went in, the more sober recognized that Iraq was like a vase in an antique shop -- you break it, you own it. We probably shouldn't have picked it up. But we did, we dropped it, we broke it, and now we have to clean up the mess.
The flaw in all that you say, WM, is the belief that we can keep Iraq from coming apart. If you can convince me that we can, I'll agree with you. Honestly. I know it will be complete hell when we leave Iraq. But I don't believe we can do anything more than delay the inevitable. Hell, the Iraqi parliament has just decided to take the summer off. All the benchmarks they were supposed to work on to bring the country together -- they'll get to it later. The truth is, they won't get to it, because there's little effective will among the Iraqi factions to compromise. I believe that all we can do is hold off the inevitable. I'd like to hear the case for why that is wrong. As you know, I feel an intense personal interest in this because I'm about to have a close family member go into that breach in Baghdad. My subjective status doesn't make my argument any more or less persuasive, but it does make me care a lot more about the men who die every day. They are not abstractions. If they must die, let them die for a worthy cause. Let them die to achieve something achievable. If they are dying, or coming home maimed, for the sake of a war that cannot be won because of factors outside their own control, then what's the point? I'm not asking rhetorically. I really want to know.
VDH's NR column of day touches on something that should scare the hell out of Bush(but since he's a stubborn and foolish man, who knows?); American on the right no longer care about the ME, and as he puts it, "In short, America believes that the entire region is not worth the bones of a single Marine,"as the unexpressed soto voce thought of many Americans on the right. When I heard Bush babble on last Friday about "Iraqis yearning to breath free", the sense of anger and frustration was overwhelming.why waste bright and wonderful American young men and women on a foolish evil lot of scum like this?
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MTljYjgzNmRjOWY4ZjljZDJhODcxODhkNjhjZTExMTU=&w=MQ==
Please explain why our departure will not mean more bloodshed for these average people. It will. But we can't stop the civil war, only delay it, at mounting cost to ourselves.
We probably shouldn't have picked it up. But we did, we dropped it, we broke it, and now we have to clean up the mess. What does that mean? What would cleaning up the mess look like? What should we do that our military is not doing now? How can we "clean up the mess" when the people on whose behalf we are supposed to be cleaning up the mess want us the hell out of the country? Rod, I don't see how your visa idea will ever fly. After all, how many people are you talking about? And, since the Sunnis are technically a religious minority (Iraq is majority Shiite), are you suggesting that we offer visas to all of the Sunnis? That strikes me as completely unrealistic. I'm talking about religious minorities (the Christians, the Yazidis) who have no larger community or regional allies that they can fall back on for protection).
Rod, What would it take to convince you that there was any possibility of success in Anbar? I agree that the political progress has been very frustrating, but I think we should give the counter-insurgency strategy time to work while applying political pressure. Evidence that it will succeed takes longer than a couple months of increased troop numbers in Baghdad. I fear it won't work, but I think it's better to give it a try and support it than give up yet.
Rod, I share the same concern as a friend prepares to be deployed. We certainly agree that in hindsight the US should not have gotten involved in Iraq as we did - but that does us no good. Rumsfeld et.al. pursued a failing strategy for years; we agree on that, too. But I'm not sure that you can make the case that "it is clear we cannot win in Iraq". The only thing that's clear to me is that we entered the conflict with excessive hubris and not enough men. The question in my mind is not 'can we win' but 'will we do what is necessary militarily to win'.
You shoudl read Joe Lieberman's comments from the Senate floor yesterday. Too long to post.
This Yingley chap may be the greatest thing since sliced bread: but we have NO idea if he represents a mainstream position, or is even telling the truth. So far he has four peers coming out in disagreement - who's right? You're lionizing Yingley, what moral courage, and all that, but at the same time suggesting that Gen. Petraeus, that yutz, NOW he tells us. Doesn't he get some points for not sugar-coating things? I think we owe it to the troops sent to give the surge a (not unlimited) chance at turning the tide. Or at least being a bit more circumspect in announcing conclusions.
I do not know that the war is winnable. But I do not believe that we should leave before Petreus' tactics get a chance to work. My childhood best friend served there as a corpsman, and I agree that it is terrifying to have a friend there. No, our thousands are not abstractions, BUT NEITHER ARE THEIR MILLIONS.
I would argue this. Petreus is both an intellectual and a man of action, a rare combination. He has both the local knowledge and the historical perspective so many have lacked thus far. And, or course, he literally "wrote the book" on counterinsurgency. Thing is, no one was following his book. What Gen Petreus is doing is profoundly different at the tactical level from what had been being done up to now. I think it can work, to be honest. But these tactics are time consuming. They take months, not days.
He will be integrating small groups of soldiers into Iraqi communities. Building up checkpoints each within sight of the next, police style stations, and other small institutional presences throughout trouble spots. Less green zone, more "broken windows policing." He will also be cultivating informers, not only by paying them, but by being close enough to them that they feel safe talking.
This can work, but it takes time. It also means we need patience here at home. Was exporting John Locke at sword-point viable? No, fine, lesson learned. Were we going to be welcomed with open arms? - well we were by the Kurds, but other than that, no. Were there WMD's? No. Is mission accomplished? Duh. You know what? that doesn't matter at this point. What matters is that we give a counter insurgency expert time to counter an insurgency, without a constant drumbeat of despair energizing Al Quaeda in Iraq and that Sadr wacko. There is a larger problem here as well. If it is clear, from Vietnam, Somalia, and Iraq, that Americans cannot deal with insurgency tactics, there will be more of this stuff - not less. For our own military, and for the sake of our standing in the world, we have to beat this insurgency - or at least we need the chance to try to apply these tactics.
The head of the Central Intelligence Agency is not going to be involved in such a debate? Really? Yes, really. You're taking Tenet's statement that he was not aware of a debate and concluding that there was no debate at all. It just doesn't follow Rod.
I would also question why Mr Tenet is just now complaining about the misuse of his "slam dunk" comment. Seems a rather convenient excuse now that he thinks the whole war is a mistake.
It's beyond the military. How can you save a people that don't want to be saved? The Vietnamese were at least rational people. The ananlogy doesn't remotely hold because the Iraqis and the entire ME subcribe to a religion and belong to a culture that are both far more alien to us than Vietnam ever was.
If Bush wasn't literally prepared to burn down the village to save it, this was a collosal waste.The only thing these people respect is brute force. Fighting a PC war was the ulitmate in stupidity.
And I write all this knowing I can expect my stepson to get out of Parris Island within the next 18 months to 2 years and be on his way there, if it isn't ended. I don't see sending more people to die making it any better.
We're going to leave.Call it what ever, but let's go already.
If you think conservatives going to smile and stay silent over the prospect of thousands or tens of thousands of Arabs being admitted into this country, you're out of your blasted mind. They've spend years refining and injecting the image of the Arab bogeyman into just about everything--from illegal immigration to secret detentions to the Virginia Tech massacre. And with the 2008 election around the corner, not a single GOP candidate is going to say a word about it, fearing career suicide. Those Iraqis are about as screwed as they come. I didn't support this war, but now that we're there, I think we have to stick it out for the 10 or 12 or 20 years this is going to take. I think that because a majority of Americans supported this war, we ought to bring back the draft.
Friends, I got this from a friend doing clandestine stuff in Iraq. He or she is on the ground, and what s/he says makes me fear deeply for our Christian brothers and sisters over there. Bears on things people have been saying re: religious minorities and civil war. I've edited for length and a little for obscurity, and i'm curious what others think. "Hello, my friend. Sorry for the delay in writing. I'm been busy since my arrival, due to events you likely hear about every day. I'm reasonably happy, reasonably busy and reasonably safe, so don't worry about me. "The security situation here in the north is deteriorating rapidly, and the violence from Baghdad seems to be creeping northward, despite the coalition's best efforts to thwart it. I'm in the process of firing off a letter to the president of my alma mater...and the Archbishop of ... asking for their assistance. The north of Iraq has not seen the levels of violence that are in the news everyday, but things are getting worse.
"There is a small but robust Christian community in Iraq that is coming increasingly under fire. If the Coalition pulls out of Iraq, I greatly fear they will suffer a holocaust not unlike that in WWII. We are already seeing attacks on Christian neighborhoods in Kirkuk increase. If the violence down south increases, the Christians will be caught in the crossfire, and will slaughtered by both the Sunnis and Shiites, as they are small in numbers and easy targets for executions. ...[T]here was a massive bombing of a police station next to a Christian school in the Rahimawa Neighborhood of Kirkuk, and many children were injured or killed. A lot of the Christian families are leaving for Syria and Lebanon, but many are too poor to leave, and will have no place to turn, should things continue to worsen. I'm not sure how much power you have to address these issues, but the time is fast approaching where we as Christians will need to do something to protect our brothers here in Iraq. I urge you to contact anyone you know who can help, and start a campaign to address this situation. Were specific religious communities and institutions in the U.S. willing to take in and "adopt" Christian families from Iraq, the U.S. State Dept. would probbly be more willing to allow them refugee status. I greatly fear for their safety, and of events to come if the Democrats force a withdrawl of troops. Abandoning Iraq will mean their assured slaughter. The holocaust of our time is unfolding, and their blood will be on our hands if we sit back and do nothing to stop it.
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Several other commenters have noted this, but I also think it is far from "clear that we cannot win in Iraq." Petraeus' testimony is that there are steps forward and setbacks. Is is certain we will win? No, but it is also unclear that we will lose. Iraq has made many strides over time, not always on a timetable we would like, but progress has occurred. I don't know much about the current Iraq Parlaiment situation (based on comments here I plan to look into it a little), but I wonder if the withdrawal of the Sadr coalition from Parlaiment is creating current difficulties, but will be better in the long run? Also, the "civil war" is, in my mind, fomented and supported to some extent by external influence. I am hopeful that dealing with these influence will allow the "civil war" to resolve without necessitating dividing the country. FWIW.
We can blame our officers, blame the CIA, blame the administration, or the anti-war advocates, but the fact is that a basic fallacy in the way we think about wars is the reason we lose wars. The basic fallacy is this: We think we can fight a war on humane terms and win. Clinging to the idea of a humane war is a sure formula for defeat. Sledge's war journal chronicled the inhumane nature of WWII. But, we won that one! We won by having our savagery exceed that of the Japanese and Germans (at least in terms of our ability to mete out mayhem on their civilian populations.) It's O.K. to be in favor of peace. In fact, realizing the fallacy of the humane war concept may help a people not choose to go to war. A nation would maintain peace simply because they realize the savagery they may have to participate in to get a military victory is unacceptable. A simple fact seems established by history: Wars are won by those who can out-brutalize their enemies. If you have no taste for that sort of thing, you'd better look for every opportunity to stay on the sideline.
"Wars are won by those who can out-brutalize their enemies." War is hell. But your comment is wrong. The Allies hardly "outbrutalized" the genocidal Nazis. They did suck it up and do what was necessary, including some brutal acts (Hiroshima comes to mind- hope this doesn't open another can of worms.) Demoralizing the enemy is key, and FORCE that overwhelms an enemy is key to victory. BRUTALITY is not. (Maybe I'm putting too fine a point on the distinction, but I think it is necessary).
CS, War is capable of changing everything while it continues. Prior to Hiroshima, there was the London blitz, and the firebombing of Dresden (some say in retaliation for London). These were just the larger and better reported acts of "brutality". Your can of worms goes away when a person is capable of bringing a rational eye to war: when everything is defined as brutal (and I see no reason to not apply that label to war), then discussions of "brutality" become moot. After the war is over, or at least after the battle is over, there is time and space to decide what was and was not rationally an act of war. For another aspect on brutality, read up on the many attempts by both sides to use propagandist tactics to win battles without guns and bombs. In Iraq, we are very much at a loss without understanding the cultural context in which the acts of war occur, there.
Irenaeus, with all due respect to the grief your friend is witnessing: why are there still Christians there? If your friend is correct, and a WWII "style" holocaust is in the offing, night-time treks across the desert to a friendly border would seem like a sane alternative to staying where they are. There is no polite way to put this: people who put pride and place over the prospect of certain death do not deserve my sympathy. They can have their Alamo if they want it. If they have children, all the more reason to disdain their choice to stay. Sorry, but lessons of the past that go unlearned are difficult to bear seeing repeated.
Franklin, As always, you have a cogent response. In many ways, any act of war can be defined as "brutal." My response above is to the idea that we have to "out-brutalize" the enemy to be victorious in conflict. It is in fact possible to be a disciplined military force operating under "civilized" rules of engagement and yet defeat insurgents who will, for example, kidnap reporters and behead them on video. As to the cultural context, I believe it is crucial to project strength. I believe that force must be targeted but decisive, if "victory" is to be achieved in Iraq.
You can withdraw the troops from the Iraqi front in the war against the jihadists but you'll just have to transfer them to another front in the near future. Once Iraq becomes a safe haven and source of funds for the jihadists, does anyone seriously believe that they are going to stop attacking the US? Thank God a slim majority of American appears to continue to be opposed to surrender in Iraq: A Bloomberg poll reveals 61% of Americans believe withholding funding for the war is a bad idea, while only 28% believe it is a good idea (3/3-11, 2007). A recent Public Opinion Strategies (POS) poll found that 56% of registered voters favor fully funding the war in Iraq, with more voters strongly favoring funding (40%) than totally opposing it (38%); (3/25-27, 2007). POS found also that a majority of voters (54%) oppose the Democrats imposing a reduction in troops below the level military commanders requested (3/25-27, 2007). A separate POS poll finds 57% of voters support staying in Iraq until the job is finished and the Iraqi government can maintain control and provide security for its people. And 59% of voters say pulling out of Iraq immediately would do more to harm America s reputation in the world than staying until order is restored (35%); (2/5-7, 2007). A Fox News/Opinion Dynamics poll show 69% of American voters trust military commanders more than members of Congress (18%) to decide when United States troops should leave Iraq. This includes 52% of Democrats, 69% of Independents and 88% of Republicans (3/27-28, 2007). According to a recent Pew Research survey, only 17% of Americans want an immediate withdrawal of troops (4/18-22, 2007). That same poll found a plurality of adults (45%) believe a terrorist attack against the United States is more likely if we withdraw our troops from Iraq while the country remains unstable Should a date for withdrawal be set, 70% of American believe it is likely that insurgents will increase their attacks in Iraq starting on that day. This is supported by 85% of Republicans, 71% of Independents and 60% of Democrats. (FOX News/Opinion Dynamics, 4/17-18, 2007). An LA Times/Bloomberg polls reveals that 50% of Americans say setting a timetable for withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq hurts the troops, while only 27% believe it helps the troops (4/5-9, 2007). (http://corner.nationalreview.com/)
This is exactly then kind of panicked nonsense that went on during the cold war. Regan prevailed, eastern europeans are free, and the appeasers were and continue to be a moral disgrace.
Franklin, As Americans, we are all descendents of people who packed up and left at some point. We don't value attachment to a certain place/homeland the way many people do. Christians have been in Iraq since the second century (or earlier). To say, you aren't deserving my sympathy because you haven't left your home to face poverty in a refugee camp (where you may continue to be persecuted for your religion) seems a little harsh. What friendly borders are there for Iraqi Christians? Iran? Turkey? Syria? Saudi Arabia? Certainly none of those. Jordan and Kuwait aren't much better.
"...Reagan..."
Zak, You add an important point to my statement, and I agree: there is no simple way to state the case, and consequences are important to consider regardless of which choice is made. But, in the end, standing there (in my imagination) with my children and wife huddled close by, I still see a very human choice: stay and die, or find the possibility of life somewhere else. Most of my maternal extended family, Jews all, died after attempting to escape death at the hands of the Nazis. I'm here today only because my mother's family succeeded (barely, and over a four-year period) where the rest of them did not. If making that my standard is harsh, I must accept the criticism.
CS, Having recently visited Gettysburg, your final comment reminds me of what I learned there about one phase of the battle. The Union commander holding Little Round Top, seeing that his ammunition was down to one final round, chose to charge the Confederate forces -- downslope over many rocks -- in the hope that he would at least reduce the strength of the force that would hold the strategic point after him. The Confederates, not knowing that detail about the ammo, and not knowing the actual strength of the charge, turned and fled. As for the rest, I hope you are correct, but that hope is very small. Ask any military historian about guerilla tactics and their effectiveness against a conventional force.
I don't think making that your standard is harsh at all. But aren't you at risk of making that a standard you judge everyone else by, thereby imputing it to me? D'oh! Ah forget it. It's Fridy. God bless y'all.
If your friend is correct, and a WWII "style" holocaust is in the offing, night-time treks across the desert to a friendly border would seem like a sane alternative to staying where they are. That is what's going on. The Christians are moving in large numbers to Syria, which, ironically, treats religious minorities far better than most of our allies in the region. Vide Egypt or Saudi Arabia.
For those of you who are fans of Sledge's book, you should know that HBO has greenlit a mini-series based partly on it. Hanks and Spielberg are teaming up for another "Band Of Brothers" type series, but this one focused on the Pacific theater. Details at http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117963752.html?categoryid=1238&cs=1&p=0. Neil
For the second time in a generation, the United States faces the prospect of defeat at the hands of an insurgency. In April 1975, the U.S. fled the Republic of Vietnam, abandoning our allies to their fate.... Trouble being, at least in Viet Nam the U.S. had allies. Who are our allies in Iraq? Some bureaucratic toadies esconsced in the Green Zone?
Franklin Eavans, you write: "Ask any military historian about guerilla tactics and their effectiveness against a conventional force." There's a lot of scholarship on this, as you probably know, and the results vary, depending on how the conventional force responds. If it is not successful in adapting to (which sometimes means adopting) the non-conventional force's tactics, the conventional force will lose. But, as I've pointed before here, not all insurgencies win. Broad brush, the insurgents win about 2/3 of the time.
Petraeus knows all this. I think Bush's biggest blunder was keeping Rumsfeld and Abazaid so long. If Bush had put Petraeus in charge 3 years ago, my guess is that things would be dramatically better know. For a whole bunch of reasons, including the political realities in the US, the odds of Petraeus pulling out a victory are pretty long now. J.L. Chamberlain's gamble at Little Round Top was amazingly effective. One of my great, great grandfathers, who was in Hood's Texas Brigade, was on the receiving end of the 20th Maine's charge.
Bubba, Your analogy doesn't work. Germany and Japan declared war on us (and Japan attacked us). The threat posed by Saddam in 2002-2003 was in no way as obvious.
Rod, I know this thesis has come up before, especially after VietNam. It makes a certain sense, but the logical leap from the generals saying "no" to a coup is rather short. It's rough, but I would prefer the generals to shut up and go along with whatever idiocy the current or future occupant of the WH cooks up than turning the US into a coup ridden caudillo state. Whatever we have learned from this mess, is that our liberties are fragile, and people will give them up far too easily. Let's not make it any easier Kim M
ScurvyOaks, I have no doubt that Petraeus knows precisely what he is in for, and what his chances are. I most fervently hope that he will get a "I am required to advise you" message to his CiC should it become necessary... an eventuality I fully anticipate, though I take no joy in it. I know too much (that also being nowhere near enough) to think that the peak troop levels in the "surge" will be enough to pacify the insurgency, unless "brutal" tactics as discussed are used by US forces... and with Viet Nam on everyone's mind, not to mention the prison fiascos, Petraeus may find his hands tied. Shrug. My brother made me buy a copy of The Killer Angels by Michael Shaara. It's second or third on my read-next list.
Rod: More and more you sound like a one-man Andrew Sullivan amen chorus. Does it make you guys just plain feel good to strike your breast and say mea culpa, mea culpa, or what? May I say: Enough already. You really just can t say let s go to war and then when things get bad, say oh, no, I m not up for this, it s so brutal and nasty. And about Iraq being in a civil war -- may I recommend you read Michael Novak in today s National Review Corner blog? I know he s an evil neocon, but give it a try. You might actually learn something. Here s Novak: Two false assertions are being made these days about the Sunnis and the Shiites in Iraq. The first is that they have been fighting one another for ages. The second is that they are currently waging civil war upon one another. Shiites and Sunnis have lived in rather remarkable proximity in many cities of Iraq, with not a few intermarriages, and for many generations. They have often boasted of being Iraqis first, before being Sunnis and Shiites. The most influential Shiite Imam, Ayatollah Sistani, has been amazing for his peacekeeping and calming effect, urging the Shiites not to seek revenge and, instead, to turn to democracy and peaceful ways, rather than futile combat. In fact, Imam Sistani has been so successful at this preaching that, in desperation, al Qaeda dramatically changed strategy during 2005. They viciously destroyed the old, revered, beautiful golden dome of the mosque in Samarra. They stepped up their campaign to terrorize other Shiite mosques and the worshipers attending them. Al Qaeda members are virtually all Sunnis, from foreign countries, and they care not a whit either for Iraqi Shiites or Iraqi Sunnis. Their strategy for 2006 was to commit horrible atrocities against Iraqi Shiites, so that the hotheads among them would unleash death squads against the Sunnis in retaliation. Then the Sunnis would retaliate against the Shiites. This was not real civil war. It was a contrived and phony ploy to bait each side into fighting the other, while the foreigners waited to pick up the spoils. One has to remember that the foreigners who make up both al Qaeda and nearly all the (self-immolating) bombers are motivated by politics, not by faith in Islam. They have no hesitation about bombing mosques, murdering imams, or destroying hundreds of worshipers. They regard anyone who does not join their war of terror, even if they are Muslims, as infidels worthy of death. They will use any means necessary to keep their toehold in Iraq and to work to eventually take over Iraq for their own political purposes. This is not civil war in Iraq; it is a limited, strategic, and tactical ploy whereby foreigners try desperately to inflame Iraqis against one another. The aim of these foreigners is to bring about such a cataclysm of murder and insecurity and fear that their tiny, tiny minority can then capture total power -- just as the small minority of Bolsheviks did in the early rise of the Soviet Empire; just as the tiny bands of ruthless black shirts and brown shirts under Mussolini and Hitler spread social paralysis to launch the rise of Fascism. Mayhem requires only a ruthless few. Those who falsely call this a civil war in Iraq are conferring on al Qaeda a success that al Qaeda has not been able to bring about itself. They are puffing up a phony, contrived civil war far beyond the bounds of reality.
You seem to think this war is a lifestyle option: Don't like something? Walk away. That simple. But wait. You're right. This one is a lifestyle option. If you want the goddam oil this fatassed country lives on, your friend, your friend's kid, someday your kids, are going to be fighting in the middle east. Carp, whine, screech, moan, bitch, sulk, finger point all you want, it won't make any difference. Spoiled yuppie brats. That's what we are.
I agree completely with those like Derek Copold, who say we can't just pull out our troops.
Also I feel that people like Senator Lindsey Graham are closer to taking the correct position.
Even though I feel the war was a blunder of huge proportions, as Graham said, the war will not end if we pull out our troops now.
Not only is there a danger of a bloodbath, but there is also no guarantee the U.S. won't be drawn into a larger, regional conflict.
I realize there are some anti-war people who believe that things will calm down when we leave.
Unfortunately, I don't hear any anti-war people articulating what we should do if things don't calm down, if we find a Bosnia or Darfur-type situation developing.
I feel that Bush is wrong about everything (related to the war) except this one thing -- we cannot withdraw our troops until we have stabilized the country and calmed things down.
"If you want the goddam oil this fatassed country lives on, your friend, your friend's kid, someday your kids, are going to be fighting in the middle east." This is not about oil but about war with the jihadists. If they win they will continue selling oil, just as the Iranians do. With they money they will buy bigger bombs and launch them at all of our asses, both fat and crunchy.
If you want a really nasty read about warfare, try this one: A Long Way Gone, by Ishmael Beah. It's a first-hand account of a child soldier fighting in the brutal wars of Sierra Leone. READ IT. If close combat in the Pacific Theater doesn't touch your desensitized heart, then maybe drug-addled 13 year-old killers will.
We soldiers who serve in Iraq and Afghanistan, even those of us who are not banging down doors on patrols, do feel a little bitter and alienated from the rest of you. Especially when you complain about little things. You are perfectly safe and have 18 brands of toothpaste to choose from. Your schools and buses are not blowing up everyday, you are not being mortared by night, you aren't spending parts of everyday trying to calculate if gunfire is being aimed AT you, and if so, how far away it is. We watch and experience these things every day. We come home, and people see us in uniform, and sort of look the other way. It ain't what it used to be.
General Petraeus is rock star to us. He calls it like it is, acknowledges our hard work and sacrifice. He knows we might not succeed, that we will be in more danger for longer tours in country, and that many of us will die in the process. But his honesty and inspiration are enough to keep us going. When he says that more commitment is needed, and more over time, however, I hope that means more will be asked of the average American than an extended shopping spree.
But even after Iraq, we have a long way to go. Especially since the current administration doesn't think too highly of diplomacy. I will go no further down that road.
LTC Yingling's comments were published in an unofficial journal which openly states that its purpose is free and open discourse. He has a few good points. Conformity and loyalty and supremely important in the armed forces, ESPECIALLY in the higher ranks. Us juniors at the bottom of the heap can only cause so much damage by insubordination. But at the top, it risks everything below breaking down. Inexcusable in war or peacetime. The Lieutenant Colonel may well suffer for his words. But I hope that they will be heeded anyway. The loyalty must not extend past the point of moral courage.
We have, as a nation, entrusted a great deal to General Petraeus. Let him play it out for another six months. Things are not going to work out perfectly to our advantage. A stable government in Iraq will likely NOT be a great power-sharer. The most likely outcome: it will be a Shia-dominated Iran-friendly government which will curtail sharply the civil liberties of its minority citizens (of a necessity, as the Sunnis will continue to cause mayhem until we withdraw, and then will tone things down but still cause damage on a regular basis.) If it can do this without killing or openly persecuting very many of them, I think we will have to take it, and hand power over to it, and go home somewhat gracefully. We may very well have to settle for stability only slightly better than Saddam's regime. Because I don't see partition working out peacefully. Read up on the split of India and Pakistan sometime. And I don't foresee these people willingly choosing to compromise.
My heart goes out to those Iraqis who helped us, and who have fled Iraq for their lives, and who wait in refugee camps for someone to take them in. Our government has shown no signs of being willing to do this.
Matt: I think that because a majority of Americans supported this war, we ought to bring back the draft. Of course, there would be an exemption to anyone who could prove that they thought this war to be folly from the night the first bombs dropped, right? Just checking. If we're going to reinstate the draft because "most Americans supported this war," then we should have an exemption for those who thought it was crass, overreaching, and unjustifiable to begin with, no?
Dub, what about "conscientious objector"? AnotherBeliever, I've never worn a uniform. I've never had any sort of military training. I know what war is like from my immigrant parents: my Jewish mother and family were hidden and protected by Italian farmers for 4 years; my father was a chetnik (let me know if you don't know that term, but he was a Lt. in the Serbian Army). I'm also 51, and I've lived most of my life in or near an urban center. I've witnessed murder, gang violence, and attended the funerals of neighbors killed in their homes or because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time during a drug war battle. My wife has taught for 35 years children of crack addicts, kids living in poverty most Americans can describe only because they've seen it in a movie. I know a few 13-year-olds. They live right around the corner from me. If you learn one thing during your service -- a service I, personally, will get down on my knees and thank you for without being asked -- it's that the vast majority of a society is exactly like me. We will never see a gun, hear a bullet meant for us go by, never see a human dead at our hands. If you are going to be proud of your service, be proud that you were one of the few who understood that our ignorance is the point of it all. But don't ever assume that we can't understand. Too many of us found that understanding before you were born. I believe we all need a stiff dose of reality once in a while. There are many who thought as you seem to see, that a soldier is worthy of contempt because his hands are dirty from his job (or he's a handy target for the present administration), but whose minds and hearts were opened by 9/11/2001. You may not meet them very often, but they are out there, in large numbers. Do not judge them by those whose ignorance is so strong that even a 9/11 is not enough to make them see. Come home safe and proud. Don't let the assholes sour it for you.
I thought after Vietnam that in my lifetime I would never see this sort of quagmire war folly again. But I have lived long enough to see it in spades. The same arguments for 'staying the course'. The same accusations that those questioning the leadership were giving 'comfort to the enemy', undermining those 'in harm's way'. One cliche after another, another war 1/4 century later, when half the nation has only heard the word Vietnam but knows nothing of it other than it is where their GAP cargo shorts were made. All this serves to prove that Knowledge is indeed Power...and the lack thereof (sometimes called ignorance) is the REAL comfort given to any 'enemy', real or imagined.
Rod, you complain about the possibility of an open-ended commitment to Iraq. You forget that, once upon a time during the Big Bad Cold War, we had an open-ended commitment to Western Europe. Why? Because we realized that the Soviet Union was perfectly capable of taking over -- and that this, somehow, was considered intolerable. Of course, organizing the defense of Western Europe was far different than organizing the occupation of Iraq. But, once again, you are confusing and conflating two issues: the incompetence of an invariably short-term presidential administration with the necessity to confront an intractable enemy that thinks in terms of centuries. What we need is a new NATO consisting of nations that recognize the jihadist threat and are willing to join us in fighting it. India, Israel and Australia would make fantastic inaugural members of this organization; except for the UK, we can write off most of Western Europe in this venture, unfortunately.
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