It's an interesting point, but I don't think it helps us out of our current dilemma. As I believe Bruce Frohnen pointed out in the same session, very few of us today have living links with tradition. The condition of modernity is precisely that our roots have been largely severed. So, what is one to do? Throw up our hands and shore up fragments against our ruin? Or try to replant the vines in a new terroir, and hope it takes? Naturally I favor the latter, because what else is there but despair?
I recalled that exchange when I read this thoughtful post by a traditionalist Catholic blogger who senses that a profound cultural change is in the wind. Excerpt:
Essentially, the families of my generation have to play-act the roles God has given us until they become a reality. For some of us, even though we desire it, it will never quite be a natural fit because we are too far gone. But for our children, this is crucial. Our young boys and girls need to grow up in homes where the husband and the wife each fulfill their unique roles, and fulfill them well. Only through the example of mom and dad will our children grow up with the confidence to act in the way that they should, and reverse the cultural trend toward gender annihilation and total chaos. Like learning a language, this example must be imprinted on them while they are young. The baggage their parents carry must be hidden from them if they are ever to imbibe the truth of God's plan for the family.
I once read some advice given to a skeptic who was trying to find his way to faith. A priest told him to live as if the Catholic faith were true, and soon he might find his way to it. Similarly, if we live as if the life-giving traditions our proximate ancestors abandoned, or had stripped from them, were true, they could come alive again naturally in the hearts of our children. Yes?
Incidentally, this blogger, Steve Skojec, who posts here from time to time, is feeling awfully Benedictine (in the MacIntyre sense) in his desire to withdraw to a certain distance from society, not as an isolationist, but as someone who feels the need to put some distance between his family and the village:
We DO need to be the leaven in the world, but we can't be until we build up our strength. The family is under constant assault, and we need to retreat and fortify. We are going to be lost if we don't.
It's not a bunker. It's an incubator. We need to nurture the seeds of the cultural restoration, and we need to do it in a place that is safe.
[snip]
I wonder how many of us might be committed to this incubation. How many of us would be willing to step back, and create a refuge for our children to learn and grow in, so that they will be ready for the fight in a way we never were. Maybe we can even learn how to keep some bees. Then when the others disappear completely, our crops, our animals, our little havens will continue to thrive and grow.
These thoughts are, I know, ill-formed. This is me at my purest - speaking only from my passion. Change is coming, and I want to be ready for it. I want to be a part of it.
He's going to love my next book, I bet. Hey Steve, you might want to check into buying land out by Clear Creek Monastery, a Benedictine monastic community in rural Oklahoma that's a daughter house of the Fontgombault monastery. I hear that lots of Catholic families are purchasing land there and planning to relocate to make the monastery the center of their familial and communal lives. It sounds like a wonderful way to live.

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Stefanie, We seem to be in agreement on the important points, and we both have a clear view of the supporting and contradictory examples. It's a complex subject, and I'm glad we shared it for this brief exchange. I would like to propose that we elevate the "can't convert" part to a cultural context, and not just traditions. There is the language and experiential context that, you are quite right, cannot be duplicated by someone not born to it. The examples I dredge up (for other arguments) are a Native American language (Hopi or Pueblo, I forget which or both) in which it has been found impossible to think in it if one is not born to it. A small tribe/clan in Africa was discovered to have (after much difficulty in learning their language) to have a circular view of time. There is no past-present-future for them. Time is part of the context, not definitional. Generally, and here's where I fall back to my dancing comparisons, it is not impossible to become embedded in a tradition, any tradition. Some, as you note, require alot more work than others. However, I would tend to agree that one cannot claim membership in the embodying culture, at least not without even more work, and sometimes beyond the bounds of practicality.
This is an illuminating exchange you re having, Stephanie and Franklin. I had always thought that one of the unusual things about Christianity was that it was so portable--not tied to any one culture, but capable of moving from place to place and custom to custom, always changing along the way, but never becoming unrecognizable. I can see that other religions, like Islam, or the more outgoing forms of Buddhism, or even Judaism--changing as its people move through other cultures--have this same transformational capability. This puts them in contrast, somewhat, to religious forms that are more firmly tied to one place and people, like Shinto.
And yet, if I look within Christianity, I can see that many of its divisions would be just as hard for a stranger to enter into and feel at home with as Shinto. Missouri Synod Lutheranism, for instance, or the Christian Reformed Church prevalent in Western Michigan in my youth. It s hard to picture, say, an African Christian joining a church of blue-eyed, blonde Hollanders with their insular customs going back to immigrant ancestors, and feeling completely at home. I always imagined that my own Catholic church was the most welcoming to all comers, just because it was so very big, and old, and weird, that it had absorbed just about everything. But I hadn t realized how many ethnic divisions there were even within Catholicism--the Irish parish at odds with the Germans, the Italians versus the Hispanic, and so forth, as it was in many big cities. And I fear that by placing itself in the forefront of politics, as the Church has done in modern times, it has made itself more confrontational and less absorbing. Perhaps we are all wanderers now. Even the traditions of our youth, which we thought we understood, have become strange to us in the course of our journey through a changing world. Perhaps, as T. S. Eliot said, We shall not cease from exploring And the end of all our exploring Will be to arrive where we started And know the place for the first time.
Franklin, Sigaliris, what if this tradition and separation from tradition is just as natural and explanable as the tides? Let's say the search for tradition is a natural instinct, say a branch of the lazy gene at work, alive and well. Tradition gives us an answer or path that's much easier than attempting to figure it out on our own. The break from tradition is the opposite genetic instinct which is to question everything, constantly trying to reinvent the wheel if you will. Neither instinct is bad within itself. Unless of course it's by itself because the truth is always somewhere in between. (keep your fingers crossed for me today. I take the steel-stone project to the painter today, day of truth, feast or famine moment coming up quick. To get a feel for where I'm at stick your face inches away from an oil painting and compare that image to what you see from twenty feet away. Up to this point in time I'm dealing with looking at this thing inches away and today we get to see what it looks like when we step back and see it in it's entirety. scarey, very scarey.)
(Harvey, it's called [by some] the artist's moment. Relish it, learn to enjoy it, or be prepared to give up your art... or the idea of selling it, anyway.) You've opened my favorite can of worms: what is it that we are really talking about here? 1) Community, in its basic form, is when the instinct for personal survival at all costs finds an acceptable compromise with the fact that others will survive around me. Thus is born the notion of cooperation. Later, cooperation becomes a recognized value, taught rather than relearned (as with the wheel reinvention). 2) The notion that we can teach our children the necessities of survival, coupled with a history of success, gives us tradition. Also (this being a passion of mine), at some point the idea of tradition and the mechanics of it blend together. It becomes self-perpetuating. My favorite manifestation of that is folk music and dance (the two together). The collection of manifestations, and their longevity and consistency, become the defining components of culture. Rather than put in my two cents about change and such, I offer a quick example of how a culture can manifest survival at the highest level: adaptability. The Celts, from the point that they enter European awareness with the acquisition of their name keltoi from the Greeks, demonstrated a remarkable ability to assimilate ideas, traditions and mundane things from each culture they encountered in their migration west. Even when they finally became settled in Gaul and the isles, they continued to show an ability to take change as constructive. The best (and best documented) example of this is Celtic Christianity. At no point in their history could they be described as losing their basic identity. It truly is an amazing progression through history.
Kudos, Kudos, you guys. You've made my day and hopefully into my weekend.
I say I agree, do agree, and can agree. Let's let certain forlorned among us for once and for all come up with a proper eulogy for their Paradise Lost.
I myself look very much forward to the joy I believe will be in what comes next. I do not think there is really any going "backwards."
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