To be an American Christian
Thursday June 7, 2007
I had lunch today with a three Christians, one from Europe, one from the Middle East, one from Southeast Asia. Here is a summary of our conversation:The Middle Easterner: We are being terribly persecuted. Our people are being killed and...
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About Crunchy Con
Rod Dreher is an editorial columnist for the Dallas Morning News, and author of "Crunchy Cons" (Crown Forum), a nonfiction book about conservatives, most of them religious, whose faith and political convictions sometimes put them at odds with mainstream conservatives. The views expressed in this blog are his own.
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We often take for granted the blessings of liberty we have enjoyed, and I think your post does well to remind us. We should keep all our brothers and sisters in faith in our prayers.
I understand why evangelical and fundementalist American Christians feel marginalized sometimes -- having grown up in a fundamentalist church -- yet I know lots of non-Christians who feel just as marginalized by the pervasiveness of Christian rhetoric in society. (Authentic Christian practice may be more rare, but many folks don't seem to make a distinction.) I tend to roll my eyes at both sides. Just before I complain of feeling mis-understood myself for something or other by mainstream culture, that is. ;o) I think the big problem is that most of us in the U.S. -- Christian or not -- are too self absorbed and insecure. If our own way of life or beliefs are not constantly vailidated by those around us, we feel persecuted. Feeling marginalized has become fashionable, which is proof that we are often over-reacting. Rod's conversatinon over lunch is a good reminder that most of us barely understand *real* marginalization and persecution.
"The European: Our churches are virtually empty." We have state religions.
Your European write: "We look around at all our magnificent churches, and see that the faith survived all kinds of immense hardships and challenges over the centuries, but Christians made it. Now, in our time, Christians are completely free to worship as they like, and everyone has all their material needs taken care of, but there is a real question of whether we are going to make it." Uh, wrong. Christianity spread like wildfire through Europe during those centuries because it offered comforta _against_ immense hardships and challenges (the latter including ignorance of scientific understanding of the natural world, and the wonderful quality of life changes that have accompanies it). And that's why there's a question of whether Christianity is "going to make it." For quite come time now Western minds have needed it less and less.
HW:
"For quite come time now Western minds have needed it less and less."
Would propose quite the opposite my friend. It is that we have all those wonderful things that you mention that Christianity is more necessary then ever, before we complete the next phase and make of ourselves only things.>
You'll never feel closer to God than when you've got cancer, or when a hurricane is swallowing your hometown. At those times, you're dependent, and you're keenly aware of God's power and your weakness. No athiests in a foxhole, right? I assume the same is true for religious persecution, though I've never faced anything approaching real persecution.
When everything's going peachy, you don't feel you need God. And things have been pretty peachy in most of the West for the last 60 years.
I envy the enduring faith of those who are truly persecuted, and I wonder what I might do before the rooster crows.>
I think HW is mistaking his own vague assumptions, based on loose understanding of scant historical occurrences for real historical facts.
Schmitt is right; it's the opposite. It's not that we actually need it less and less, we just think we don't. Too many people think of religion as something you turn to during the tough times, the ones who only pray to beg and not to thank.
Western society has become much more materially content, but as a consequence has become spiritually and morally vacant. And you don't even need to be religious to believe this. Do you think that the rise of self-help books, online dating, new age 'philosophy', and other such things is unrelated to our prosperity? As material wealth has grown, our connections to our community - and more importantly, our own personal groundings - have been lost. We may be able to live our lives without fear of hunger or war, but too many of us aren't really happy.>
You'll never feel closer to God than when you've got cancer, or when a hurricane is swallowing your hometown. At those times, you're dependent, and you're keenly aware of God's power and your weakness. No athiests in a foxhole, right? I assume the same is true for religious persecution, though I've never faced anything approaching real persecution.
When everything's going peachy, you don't feel you need God. And things have been pretty peachy in most of the West for the last 60 years.
I envy the enduring faith of those who are truly persecuted, and I wonder what I might do before the rooster crows.>
We certainly do not have to endure persecution in the U.S. on a level like many other societies. And, Christianity is much more vibrant in American society than European.
You can make too much of the "war on Christmas" stuff. You can also make too little of it. There is a cultural trend to marginalize Christian convictions, and to reduce the impact of faith on our culture and society.
For example, the debates about whether and how much the convictions of certain Christians should prevent them from serving as Supreme Court justices, surgeon general, etc.>
Gee, Mark and Schmitt, I actually think I'm right and you're wrong. Since we've adduced equally valid evidence (i.e., none) I guess each of us has wound up where he started. Yay internet!>
Uh oh. This post is pro-American. What is this blog coming to?
"Christianity is much more vibrant in American society than European."
Not so sure about that. Something resembling Christianity, but without all the inconvenient bits about not being able to serve God and mammon, or camels passing through the eyes of a needle, is certainly popular here.>
Good point, Nick. The Bush regime and it's cronies have made wearing their Christianity on their sleeve into almost a requirement. Yet, this current regime has been a bottomless pit of corruption, power-grabbing and general contempt for the US government and the people it serves.
It makes me wonder- is Christianity compatible with a free society>
I was thinking of responding to HW but then thought "Why?"
One thing that strikes me about this topic of American Christians feeling persecuted is that we have clear instructions that we are to rejoice and be exceedingly glad when we are persecuted, but the rather mild slights that we do suffer don't make us rejoice, they make us indignant.>
Nice new look for the blog! Easier to read.
"the latter including ignorance of scientific understanding of the natural world, and the wonderful quality of life changes that have accompanies it"
This comment is itself 'ignorant'. Christianity gave birth to modern science. In fact, even in the classical period Christians were convinced that the world ran in regular ways: St Joseph was the first person to disbelieve in the Virginal Conception of Jesus.
Further, 'science' is neither purely positive nor neutral. It is a double-edged sword. Surely science has provided us much in terms of material relief and comfort: steady food supplies, medicines, etc., for which Christians give thanks. Yet science also brought us modern warfare and the holocaust.
Essentially, you're coming from a modernist perspective, but most folks have realized science isn't the positive be-all-and-end-all of philosophy, and moved on to a more postmodern view.
Heh.
I've maintained for years that prosperity has done significant damage to the practice of the Faith in the USA--far more than the depredations of the LitWonks following VatII.
That European fellow has the same thought.
Channeling??>
Well, we seem to have lost some posts for the spiffy new web page design.
I also see we can no longer preview before posting. I guuss i bettr be mre carfull to rveiw wat I rite bfre psting.
;)
I was at mass in a church in Jersey City a couple years ago, and the homily started out strong about Christians persecuted in other countries; I remember Saudi Arabia was specifically mentioned.
But then at some point the priest tried to lump us in with them by, I think, bringing up the 10 Commandments in the courtroom controversy or something like that. The whole point he was trying to make just became kinda laughable after that. A bit sad, too.
Let me be clear, though. B/c a Christian in the Middle East faces far greater struggles than we do in America with regards to living our faith, that does not mean we don't face struggles. You can't compare the two, as Rod found out in his discussions, but that doesn't mean we don't face our own troubles.
To whoever suggested Christianity might not be compatible with democracy, or that George Bush makes everyone be Christian, let's spare the overexcited hyperbole. Bush probably has more in common with religious folk from other religions than he does with someone like Jimmy Carter, who wears his Christianity (albeit one I don't really understand) on his sleeve. Furthermore, our ability to worship freely shows how well democracy and religion work together.
Things like the War on Christmas and the 10 Commandments incident are more annoying than they are impediments to our ability to live as Christians, but that does not mean our world is worry-free. Likewise, our lives might not be threatened, but that does not mean there isn't some kind of backlash against Christians by some segments of our society today. The point is, you just show a little discretion, like Rod did, and not try to compare them to getting the death penalty for owning a Bible.>
cs,
There is a cultural trend to marginalize Christian convictions
While there is some truth in this statement, I would say that a "trend to fight for a place at the table" is an equally accurate formulation. A significant component of this trend is a reaction against (both real and, yes, perceived) Christian religious hegemony in our culture. Note that I said "religious" and not "spiritual"; a Christian theocracy could no more prevent me from holding to my polytheistic convictions than anyone can prevent you from holding to your Christian convictions.
The "war on Christmas" is actually a pretty good exemplar... As certain highly vocal "public Christians" fight to effectively suppress public recognition of non-Christian religious holidays that occur in the December time frame, or even that such holidays have a right to be acknowledged (witness the retail kerfuffle over "Happy Holidays"), the rest of us resist this attempted marginalization. And the more resistance these "crusaders" (in the colloquial sense) meet, the more strident they become; and so on, in a seemingly endless and increasingly ugly spiral.
As to the religion-in-public-office question, it's ridiculous to believe, or even to pretend to assume, that a person will NOT be guided to some degree by their religious convictions in ALL areas of their lives, if their beliefs are worth holding. But when someone takes an oath to uphold and protect the law of the land, in case of conflict that responsibility MUST take precedence over private religious views.>
US Christians face difficulties, no doubt about it... but they are almost without exception homegrown, internallly generated difficulties.
My answer to a US Christian claiming to be persecuted is "Sure you are. Just look in the mirror.">
And that's why there's a question of whether Christianity is "going to make it." For quite come time now Western minds have needed it less and less.
Why, hamburger!! Why did no one tell we that we in the West have abolished death?>
[playfully matching tone] Why, Susan!! I feel just as comforted by my belief in reincarnation as any Christian is by a belief in Heaven.
Sounds to me like Heaven is already crowded and boring. I'd rather come back for more fun. ;)>
Rod said, "And there's me, the American, feeling rather ashamed of myself. Perhaps I should have told these people about the war on Christmas in my country. [That's sarcasm, please note.]"
A more sobering reflection might be: which one of these paths will America's Christians follow?
Will we ever be forced to exist as an underground church, like in Southeast Asia? It seems pretty laughable, but then there is the possibility, however slight, that American-style democracy may one day be replaced by something more akin to totalitarianism than (small r) republican self-government. How often during the Patriot Act debates did we hear people saying, essentially, "Go ahead, take away our freedom and privacy--as long as we are SAFE!"?
Will we ever be persecuted like the Middle Easterner? Seems pretty unlikely, from where we stand. But if our policy continues to allow widespread immigration, legal and illegal, of people who either belong to religions which have a history of not co-existing peacefully with Christianity, or people who believe we 'stole' a significant part of our country from them and would like to 'reconquer' it, the possibility of a new reality of sectarian violence arises.
Will we become like the Europeans, who view religion as a quaint but slightly distasteful element of a cultural past that, as befits more enlightened people, we've replaced with modernity? Of the three, this seems the most likely. The "war on Christmas" is a symptom, after all; polite moderns raise their eyebrows in surprised contempt that *anyone* out there actually celebrates Christmas as a religious festival; it's all about the 'holiday' trees, 'holiday' lights, 'holiday' ornaments, and lots and lots of 'holiday' gifts. Especially the gifts; many retailers make or break their annual profits based on the shopping that leads up to that one 'holiday' we'd rather not name.
So which will it be, post-Christian America? An underground Church, a persecuted Church, or an invisible and irrelevant Church? Those are the choices handed down by the god of progress, and every day we slide a little further down one of those three paths.>
Is there a case to be made for freedom as a causal factor between Europe and America? That is, many people, including my ancestors, came to America specifically to worship freely and not according to cuius regio, eius religio. The people in Europe stayed there either because they agreed with their prince or because they didn't care enough about that to make a change. This creates a significant momentum in the population and the local culture. Yeah, Europe is more free now but it's too late. There's a good reason freedom of religion is in the very first Amendment, and, regardless of the effects on Christmas, we should give many hosannas for it. (Not to mention the effects of French and German philosophy on European intellectualism. Or the reactions of the European people to persecution by the various state churches in Europe, but let's not go there on this thread.)>
Franklin :)
!!>
Franklin, dearest, if this is your idea of fun...??>
Rod's comment, "And there's me, the American, feeling rather ashamed of myself" was interesting. It shows the liberal influence on anglo males, who are supposed to feel a pervasive sense of white guilt.
For what reason do you feel ashamed? For living in a country where you haven't experienced frank persecution or spiritual burn-out? Feeling ashamed for things you're not responsible for is called neurosis. A little neurosis is ok, I guess. It helps self-motivate a person. But, it is unneeded in these matters. It would be better to see ourselves as blessed, and look for ways we can help.>
How about if Christian media commentators promise one account on the persecution of Christians in Asia, Africa, Middle East, etc., for each "War on Christmas" story they run?>
Susan, I use "fun" sorta like "interesting" is used in the Chinese cliche (some call it curse) "May you live in interesting times." :)>
Watch out, Rod. You sound suspiciously pro-American.>
redopto,
I think Rod was feeling ashamed of himself for all the breast-beating and whining about the chocolate Jesus, etc, and acting for all the world as if that sort of thing is persecution. Persecution is being afraid of leaving your home, of being found with a Bible, of being killed or arrested or beaten simply for holding your beliefs.
Franklin: We Buddhists spend our time trying to arrange not be reborn. That's where the relief is said to lie!>
>If Ray Kurzweil is right, we're just one generation away from a major paradigm-shaker here for Christians as well (excerpts follow):
The smartest (or the nuttiest) futurist on Earth:
"That will enable overlapping revolutions in genetics, nanotechnology, and robotics. Which is how you end up with nanobots living in your brain."
Sheesh, I hope we get to have a say about that. How depressing.>
What happened to all the comments?
Seriously. If I'm still alive by 2045 I'll be 83. Since I don't take good care of myself I doubt I'll live that long -- and from the sound of it, I'll be lucky.>
For what reason do you feel ashamed?
For complaining. About anything. The lives these guys have, man, we're in clover here.>
"Wealth and freedom is doing to Christianity in Europe..."
yes...
"wealth and freedom" are great enablers of access to all the modern knowledge and understanding of the world...
and...
with this access, most Europeans have concluded that the Myths of Christianity are unreliable...
(there's that Myth word again...)
and...
European culture has had many centuries of a head start on American culture...
data suggests that in a couple of generations we "American Christians" will become as rare as the European Christians...
which is unfortunate...
since there is some great spiritual value in the foundational texts of Christian Myth...
faith hope love joy peace to all...
yes...
Myths are being needed less and less...
Many of the greatest scientific minds of W. Europe were Christians, some even priests and monks. The whole system of a university was created by the Church. Hamburger's version is an 'Ignorace of History'.
The "persecution" that American Christians face is a soft persecution of being labeled ignorant, gullible, and backward. Secularists regard us as moral Luddites whose reverence for an old, unscientific book prevents us from properly embracing the brave new world. The brave new world, for instance, of everything from gay marriage to embryonic stem cell research to Sunday liquor sales.>
The European: Our churches are virtually empty. We are tolerated because we are irrelevant. Christianity is seen as a hobby, but that's it.
That's true freedom of and from religion, and they're complaining.
Maybe someone can explain to me why something so personal as one's faith has to have the acknowledgement of all those around them?
This isn't an anti-Christian observation. It seems to be universal. People not only have the need to believe, they need to have their beliefs acknowledged if not confirmed by society.
Rod:
Related more to your trip: get ye to Kariye Camii, f/k/a the Church of Our Savior in Chora. It is a gem of a Late Byzantine Church, carefully restored in the '60s.
Let me put it this way: I will call Patriarch Alexei and have your Orthodox card pulled if you don't get over to see it.
Well, Christians in the U.S. shouldn't have a persecution complex because compared to our brothers and sisters in most of the world, we have it pretty nice. Also, as an orthodox Catholic, I really don't consider people sneering at me, laughing, rolling their eyes, or having a general "oh yuck" response when I offer my opionion on the moral evil of abortion or the reality of objective truth, or the fact that God became man in Jesus Christ to be persecution. Jesus never said you would never feel unfomfortable being a follower of His. I used to work for the media so I know first hand the abject hatred of the secular-left press towards serious Christians, though I would never say I was persecuted. That all said, anyone who thinks that being a serious Christian will in no way harm you is blind. I've never been in this position so I can't say for sure, but how far would a serious Christian go in their career at the New York Times? Or Disney? Or what if I were in management at Wal-Mart and piped up that there were serious moral concerns about the sort of labor conditions at our suppliers in China? Again, persecution like our brothers and sisters in Iraq or China, maybe not, thank God, but to say that America is touchy-feely "we love Christians" is pretty naive. Sure, you can call yourself a Christian but if you actually live and profess your faith in Christ, then it's a tad different.
Rod:
If you're still in Istanbul, get to Kariye Camii (the Turkish ID for the Church of Our Savior in Chora), if you haven't already gone. It is the home of some of the finest Late Byzantine frescos in existence.
You miss that one, and I'll call Patriarch Alexei and get your Orthodox card pulled. ;)
GAH!! New format!!
"For quite some time now Western minds have needed it..."... more and more, actually.
What happened to all the comments from yesterday? It seems an update has erased some stuff.
When one is an American, one often ends up feeling ashamed when we compare our lives with other people. I totally identify with that kind of an experience, Rod. :)
No doubt that's why America, which has more materialist creature comforts than any place else, is so irreligious. Just like Europe.
Hamurger whelper, if Christianity originally spread through Europe because it offered comfort against challenges resulting from ignorance, I look for Christianity to soon make a roaring comeback
Rod;Don't feel bad. It's by God's wise providence that you live where you live. You can only do what you have been given to do and suffer through what you can not do.
Isn't Christianity increasingly resembling a hobby or enthusiasm in the U.S. too?
"For quite come time now Western minds have needed it less and less."
I fart in your general direction.
Seriously. People in this country need to quit fretting about some imaginary pre-millenial Anti-Christ (worry about THAT day when it comes) or about not getting a greeting of "Merry Christmas" in December. Yes, as citizens we must remain vigilant in maintaining our civil liberties.
But as Christians we should be FAR more focused on the trials and persecutions of our brothers and sisters. Ignoring their persecution is like ignoring the amputation of one of our own limbs. We are One Body.
Rod could have had lunch with many an American Christian that would have sounded something like this:
We American Christians are being terribly persecuted. Liberals hate Jesus, the Bible, our troops doing God's work in Iraq, George Bush and red meat. They want gays to be allowed to marry, teach our children we descended from monkeys, spew urban legends about global warming, want women to have abortions, and support illegal immigrants taking our jobs and comitting violent crimes. It is an all-out culture war and Christians are getting the shaft....blah blah blunderbluss blah...
Heck, I could have copied and pasted any number of comments on any given Beliefnet thread!
God lets the US rule the earth because our churches are not empty. In the USA, more people go to Church on the typical Sunday than in any other country on earth. I thank God for that.
This has become a lot less fun since Beliefnet apparently ate most of our posts.
Satan is a reality.
Whether it be destruction by violence of communists and Muslims, or destruction by comfortable hedonism by decadent and apathetic westerners, reality is reality.
Whether or not Europeans, SE Asians and Muslim persecutors and Americans believe in the Christian concept of eternal truth, the world is moving in the exact direction predicted it would by the Biblical writers.
Soon the mark on the forehead or hand will be as welcomed as a new platinum visa card, or the safety offered in the "security" from violence it promises.
Only the blind and blinded cannot see the truth.
Christianinty will make it (or not) based upon whether or not it's proclomations are true.
If false, then it is yet another creation of temporal man and destined to a temporal fate.
If true, then it is the creation of an Eternal Uncreated God, and is of His Eternal Truth.
Either way, it does teach that suffering is part of The Way. This I think is in part why highly developed countries with high standards of living can look at Christianity as a hobby.
One thing that might help the Middle Eastern Christian would be to realize that most Westerners are NOT Christians, and our media is pretty much anti-Christian. Some Western media, particularly Christian media such as World magazine, does tell of persecution in the Middle East, and some Christians are trying to do something about it. Many of us pray for them, as well.
Our culture as a whole ignores the issue, because our culture as a whole is not Christian. Perhaps they would feel less abandoned if they understood that.
(Perhaps something that could be said about American Christianity, as well, is that we don't face outright persecution, but we are more like Europeans--most Americans are more "hobbyists" when it comes to religion than genuine believers. While most of our culture may theoretically agree with Christian ideas, it doesn't impact their lives. It's pretty marginalized in mainstream America.)
To go on and on about our supposed persecutions while our brothers and sisters in Christ face ACTUAL persecution and threat of death is indeed inexcusable. It is like ignoring someone attempting to saw off one of your limbs. We are One Body.
Who are you calling an artifact, you lint licker?
Socialists (Liberals), Communists and Muslims. Common denominators in the persecution of Christians.
Don't think that American Christians get off their hook either.
Try sending your child to school saying that a mommy should be a woman, a daddy should be a man, and that they should always be married before making babies (even in vitro) or adopting them. It won't be the children harrassing them.
Persecution isn't always as subtle in other countries, but American Christians are not at all left alone to live in peace.
"For quite come time now Western minds have needed it less and less."
Who are you calling an artifact, you lint licker?
Thank you about the war on Christmas comment. Been my point since witnessing the insane disproportionate attention given to secular consumerist activities around Christmas.
Rod,
I believe that we as Christians in America have our own hardships to bear as well. They may not be as painful and drastic as the situations other Christians around the world encounter but they are real just the same. You mention the war on Christmas....well agreed that this is paltry in comparison with the persecution the Asian Christians endure, but America has a clear cut path ahead of it which diverges shortly up ahead, we know where the path towards secularism takes us (Europe). We are fighting to retain a bastion of the faith and a place of refuge from the onslaught of world-wide secularism (only)and intolerance. This may not be as striking as the plight of our Universal Family yet it is no less real. We should pray for the entire Church, especially those who find themselves persecuted for their love of Christ!
So, uh, is the fact that there have been no updates or comments posted in five days due to server problems resulting from the site overhaul, or something else?
Richard
Did the blog get broken when the big changeover happened? I can't believe noone has commented in a week...
Is Beliefnet having some server issues?
Richard
Rod? Hello? Are you OK? Speak to us!
(cricket)... (cricket)...
I don't know if any of this will post, but I want to alert readers that I got back from Turkey fine -- thanks for the personal e-mails wondering and worrying -- but I've been unable to post anything to the blog since last Friday. Beliefnet switched over to new blogging software, and for some reason this blog is the only one that has been on the fritz with it. They're working on it now, but I don't know when we'll be back up. Thanks for your patience, and please do come back!
Did you make it back from Constantinople?
I find that being a Christian is so hard because believing in something unseen (faith) is difficult for others to understand. Persecution comes in subtle and not so subtle forms of so-called "in-your-face-reality". These reality based reactions are hard to ignore and suggests to me an unwillingness for many to try a different tactic. Concepts such as love, compassion, understanding, justice, hope, forgiveness, and humility aren't household names and aren't taught to children as they should be. Wealth and freedom aren't going to save us from ourselves. These are only temporary which is why Christianity won't endure if our society feels it doesn't need God when things are going great. Lifting our thoughts to higher dimensions will allow for the continuance of everyone to practice their religion of choice resulting in peaceful resolves.
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