And while I'm at it, Andrew speaks to why this Libby commutation makes me a lot angrier than it otherwise would have: it comes in the context of a presidency run by people who, on evidence, believe that accountability --...
I've got no real dog in this fight--but it would be nice if when a person makes an accusation of torture, they would be more specific. Abu-Garab prison, to my knowledge was not authorized by Bush.
I'm just asking--would Sullivan and others making the same statements consider torture hard questioning, making a person uncomfortable? Where exactly is the moral line drawn?
I think that would help quite a bit in this discussion.
fbc
July 3, 2007 3:22 PM
I wish I were more angry about this, I really do.
But despite my intense dislike for the Bush Administration, it seems to me that Libby was wrongfully convicted in the first place. Yes, I hate the Bushies too. But this strikes me as the right outcome to an overzealous prosecution.
Richard Bottoms
July 3, 2007 3:41 PM
Abu-Garab prison, to my knowledge was not authorized by Bush.
A commander is responsible for everything those under his command do.
The idea that Dick Cheney & George Bush's break their b***s if that's what it takes mentality didn't filter down to the troops is laughable. Bush set the conditions and Abu Gharib was the result.
~tv
July 3, 2007 3:42 PM
I wish people *could* be more specific about the allegations of torture, but when extraordinary rendition is the rule and not the exception, and when mercenaries are hired to do dirty work so that our own military cannot be held liable, I don't think it will be possible for us to get an accurate picture of anything this administration has done or authorized to be done until long after they're buried and people with consciences begin writing their memoires.
We'll be dealing with the fallout from this hellish crew for decades.
Anonymous
July 3, 2007 3:53 PM
Might as well concede that Condiweezie was right when she invoked the mushroom cloud imagery.
Anonymous
July 3, 2007 4:09 PM
Irony overload. Andrew's all-too-true catalogue of our leader's depredations comes on July 3. Tomorrow, millions of Americans attending civic rituals will hear the reading of a document that features another litany of (much milder) offenses against law and decency, alleged against another George. It's a good thing the Signers didn't foresee what their descendants would be reduced to. They might have thrown up their hands and said, "Hey, let's go back to the King and work something out."
Hunk Hondo
July 3, 2007 4:11 PM
Sorry, that 4:09 post was mine.
The Man From K Street
July 3, 2007 4:16 PM
Good God, six straight posts on the Libby commutation? Is this really the equivalent of the Reichstag's Enabling Act of 1934, or Jar Jar Binks' nomination of Palpatine for emergency dictatorial authority?
Bugg
July 3, 2007 4:17 PM
Again, while I have no love for Bush, it seems this prosecution was a glorious waste of time and money. Libby was the victim of some very bad legal advice. The phrase is "And for Senator Clinton-she of the Town Square, FALN and Frank Rich pardons-to act all offended about this is beyond hypocrisy.
Above all, this whole torture and violation of rights caterwauling is getting a little stale.How it relates to Bush being a madman is something I don't get; he's too incompetent to be the evil genius behgind any vast conspiracy. The Abu Graib rush weekend is not the end of the world that Mr. Sullivan continually potrays it . Pardon me if for the most part tapping phones of people talking to foreign Al Qaeda types and giving captured terrorists a hard time is about right.If anything, Bush has never been tough enough.
aaron
July 3, 2007 4:21 PM
Is this really the equivalent of the Reichstag's Enabling Act of 1934, or Jar Jar Binks' nomination of Palpatine for emergency dictatorial authority?
TMFKS-Thanks for making my day!
Seriously Rod, can we get back to talking about Muslims or the Gays again?
ChuckDFW
July 3, 2007 5:25 PM
Glenn Greenwald places it squarely in its authoritarian context:
[T]his belief in intrinsic legal immunity extends to the entire Bush movement (which has become virtually synonymous with "neoconservatism"). That is what explains the literally endless defense not merely of individual acts of illegality, but of the claimed power to break the law in general. They are an authoritarian movement which believes only in its own power. By definition, none of its Leaders can ever be guilty of anything because to be a Leader of that movement means, by definition, that their actions are always for the Good and that anything which impedes those actions -- whether it be ethics, political principles of the law -- are unjust.
Authoritarianism best explains the Bush/Cheney/neo-con rule. Aided and abetted by the 'conservative movement', I might add. Kudos to Rod for discovering his mistaken faith in these people.
Anonymous
July 3, 2007 5:56 PM
I'm sure there are specific examples of torture, but those are conducted in locations not disclosed; however, the general torture (of this administration) goes on and on before our very eyes.
mq
July 3, 2007 7:50 PM
Torture by U.S forces during war on terror has been brutal, widespread, and encouraged at the highest levels. If you don't understand that yet, you're just not paying attention. It still surprises me how many conservatives are scandalized by gay marriage, but really don't seem to mind homosexual rape and abuse at Abu Ghraib.
Two sources, out of many available:
one on dozens of deaths of prisoners securely in U.S. custody:
Prediction for 2008: Scooter's appeals go nowhere. Bush grants a complete pardon for Libby *after* the November elections.
Why? A pardon at this stage could be used as a cudgel against Republican candidates. A commutation of the sentence works by prolonging the fiction that at least someone is being held responsible for something.
Libby goes on to earn a 5-10 fold higher salary in 2009 than he ever did while in government.*
*Honestly, 95+% of the US population would love to have the future job prospects and earning potential that Libby has, even after his conviction.
Zero-Equals-Infinity
July 3, 2007 11:23 PM
And thank-you George Bush. I look forward to 8 years of a Democrat in the White House. (P.S. Bill Clinton gets impeached over lies concerning Monica "close but no cigar" Lewinsky, and what does Bush get for his usurping of the law, (in so many ways)? Nada.)
Remember in November 2008, to send a message that gets heard around the world. Maybe, just maybe the damage of this administration can be mitigated with a decade or two of competent and honourable political leaders. And while you're thinking about this, remember which party drove the national debt through the ceiling. Big hint: It wasn't the tax and spend Democrats. And the GOP that bastion of liberty-loving protectors of the rights of the individual, is the biggest, big brother the U.S. has ever seen. Love 'em or leave 'em, and personally I say leave 'em.
I leave you with this quote from the Apocalypse Now,
" KURTZ
Have you ever considered, any real
freedoms? Freedoms from the
opinions of others. Even the
opinions of yourself. Did they
say why, Willard? Why they wanted
to terminate my command?
WILLARD
I was sent on a classified mission,
sir.
KURTZ
Its no longer classified, is it.
What did they tell you?
WILLARD
They told me, that you had
gone...totally insane. And that
your methods were unsound.
KURTZ
Are my methods unsound?
WILLARD
I don't see any method at all,
sir."
And I don't see any method at all, but I do see an out of control administration, and hope that after this one, the American people never get another one quite like it.
*** This post advocates only legal methods of administration change, so don't think my quote from Apocalypse Now implies anything other than that. I hope GWB lives a long and healthy life.
Bugg
July 3, 2007 11:42 PM
The idea of Hillary Clinton, who invoked "I don't recall" 46 times before a granfd jury being remotely upset is bordering on a joke. But Amiericans love 2nd acts.
Want to talk "Apocalpyse", I give you this. In essnece, either understand that war is a filthy business to be undertaken as a last resort with ill humor and a ahrd heart, or don't bother. the guys who firebombed Dresden and nuked Hiroshima weren't worried about hearts and minds. The failure of Bush is to understand there's no polite way to do this, and to pretend othewise is folly.
"It's impossible for words... to describe... what is necessary... to those... who do not know... what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face. And you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror... are your friends. If they are not, then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces. Seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate... some children. We'd left the camp... after we had inoculated the children for polio. And this old man came running after us, and he was crying. He couldn't say. We went back there... and they had come and hacked off... every inoculated arm. There they were, in a pile-- a pile of... little arms. And I remember... I-I-- I cried. I wept like... some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot-- like I was shot with a diamond-- a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought, 'My God, the genius of that. The genius.' The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized... they were stronger than me because they could stand it. These were not monsters. These were men-- trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts... who have families, who have children... who are filled with love... that they had the strength-- the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men... then our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men... who are moral... and at the same time... who are able to... utilize their... primordial instincts to kill... without feeling, without passion... without judgment-- without judgment. Because it’s judgment that defeats us. I worry that my son... might not understand what I've tried to be. And if I were to be killed, Willard... I would want someone to go to my home... and tell my son everything. Everything I did.
I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a strait razor. That's my dream. It's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering along the edge of a strait razor... and surviving... But we must kill them. We must incinerate them. Pig after pig. Cow after cow. Village after village. Army after army. And they call me an assassin. What do you call it when the assassins accuse the assassin? They lie. They lie, and we have to be mericful for those who lie. Those nabobs. I hate them; I do hate them."
Zero-Equals-Infinity
July 4, 2007 12:05 AM
My God Bugg, I am glad those sentiments did not prevail during the Cuban Missile crisis or you and I would not be here having this oh so pleasant conversation.
And a final quote which falls in line with what you state is from Papal legate Arnaud-Amaury who upon being asked by a Crusader how to distinguish between Cathars and Catholics at the slaughter of Béziers said: "Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" — "Kill them [all]! Surely the Lord discerns which [ones] are his."
Bugg
July 4, 2007 12:24 AM
My point isn't we should have an army of Colonel Kurtzes. Simply that Bush should have considered that war is a last resort because it requires men to do things beyond themselves. Things which are last resorts because they are extreme. Again, we all get the "Greatest Generation" speech, but there were eff ups all around, and as above, they didn't play games or gnash teeth.
Understand our military heritage. We were founded by guys who blew English heads off because their breakfast beverage of choice was to them unduly taxed. We had Sherman marching through Georgia with serious bad intent. Read or watch anything about Iwo Jima or the Battle of the Bulge or the Chosin resevoir or Khe San or Tet. Wars are not won by worrying about whtehr your enemy has been offended, but by killing him.
That Bush undertook this with some seriously loopy ideas is what scares me most.We got LBJ II. We have to see that war shouldn't be taken lightly. If we're going in, we're going to hurt a whole bunch of people. And somehwere between Panama and Grenada and Gulf War I, the idea that you could get away with a bloodless war took hold. And that our military should act as combo caterers/social workers/ward healers-missions they have no business doing -also took hold. That all must end once and for all.
Simply as it's being fought-if you could call it "fought", with IEDs killing patrols on undefended roads ,mosques being used with impunity, people calling JAGs before defending themselves-this war is an abomination.
Kit Stolz
July 4, 2007 12:46 AM
"I don't see any method at all, sir."
Doesn't that sound like the Bush administration planning for Iraq after the invasion?
In fact, the State Department did consult with experts and prepare a plan, which apparently Cheney and the neoconservatives didn't even bother to read.
Thanks Zero-Equals-Infinity for posting that dialogue.
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Rod Dreher is an editorial columnist for the Dallas Morning News, and author of "Crunchy Cons" (Crown Forum), a nonfiction book about conservatives, most of them religious, whose faith and political convictions sometimes put them at odds with mainstream conservatives. The views expressed in this blog are his own.
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I've got no real dog in this fight--but it would be nice if when a person makes an accusation of torture, they would be more specific. Abu-Garab prison, to my knowledge was not authorized by Bush.
I'm just asking--would Sullivan and others making the same statements consider torture hard questioning, making a person uncomfortable? Where exactly is the moral line drawn?
I think that would help quite a bit in this discussion.
I wish I were more angry about this, I really do.
But despite my intense dislike for the Bush Administration, it seems to me that Libby was wrongfully convicted in the first place. Yes, I hate the Bushies too. But this strikes me as the right outcome to an overzealous prosecution.
A commander is responsible for everything those under his command do.
The idea that Dick Cheney & George Bush's break their b***s if that's what it takes mentality didn't filter down to the troops is laughable. Bush set the conditions and Abu Gharib was the result.
I wish people *could* be more specific about the allegations of torture, but when extraordinary rendition is the rule and not the exception, and when mercenaries are hired to do dirty work so that our own military cannot be held liable, I don't think it will be possible for us to get an accurate picture of anything this administration has done or authorized to be done until long after they're buried and people with consciences begin writing their memoires.
We'll be dealing with the fallout from this hellish crew for decades.
Might as well concede that Condiweezie was right when she invoked the mushroom cloud imagery.
Irony overload. Andrew's all-too-true catalogue of our leader's depredations comes on July 3. Tomorrow, millions of Americans attending civic rituals will hear the reading of a document that features another litany of (much milder) offenses against law and decency, alleged against another George. It's a good thing the Signers didn't foresee what their descendants would be reduced to. They might have thrown up their hands and said, "Hey, let's go back to the King and work something out."
Sorry, that 4:09 post was mine.
Good God, six straight posts on the Libby commutation? Is this really the equivalent of the Reichstag's Enabling Act of 1934, or Jar Jar Binks' nomination of Palpatine for emergency dictatorial authority?
Again, while I have no love for Bush, it seems this prosecution was a glorious waste of time and money. Libby was the victim of some very bad legal advice. The phrase is "And for Senator Clinton-she of the Town Square, FALN and Frank Rich pardons-to act all offended about this is beyond hypocrisy.
Above all, this whole torture and violation of rights caterwauling is getting a little stale.How it relates to Bush being a madman is something I don't get; he's too incompetent to be the evil genius behgind any vast conspiracy. The Abu Graib rush weekend is not the end of the world that Mr. Sullivan continually potrays it . Pardon me if for the most part tapping phones of people talking to foreign Al Qaeda types and giving captured terrorists a hard time is about right.If anything, Bush has never been tough enough.
Is this really the equivalent of the Reichstag's Enabling Act of 1934, or Jar Jar Binks' nomination of Palpatine for emergency dictatorial authority?
TMFKS-Thanks for making my day!
Seriously Rod, can we get back to talking about Muslims or the Gays again?
Glenn Greenwald places it squarely in its authoritarian context:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/07/03/libby/index.html
Authoritarianism best explains the Bush/Cheney/neo-con rule. Aided and abetted by the 'conservative movement', I might add. Kudos to Rod for discovering his mistaken faith in these people.
I'm sure there are specific examples of torture, but those are conducted in locations not disclosed; however, the general torture (of this administration) goes on and on before our very eyes.
Torture by U.S forces during war on terror has been brutal, widespread, and encouraged at the highest levels. If you don't understand that yet, you're just not paying attention. It still surprises me how many conservatives are scandalized by gay marriage, but really don't seem to mind homosexual rape and abuse at Abu Ghraib.
Two sources, out of many available:
one on dozens of deaths of prisoners securely in U.S. custody:
http://www.humanrightsfirst.info/pdf/051024-etn-broken-chains-briefer.pdf
Sy Hersh's original article breaking Abu Ghraib:
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/05/10/040510fa_fact
Prediction for 2008: Scooter's appeals go nowhere. Bush grants a complete pardon for Libby *after* the November elections.
Why? A pardon at this stage could be used as a cudgel against Republican candidates. A commutation of the sentence works by prolonging the fiction that at least someone is being held responsible for something.
Libby goes on to earn a 5-10 fold higher salary in 2009 than he ever did while in government.*
*Honestly, 95+% of the US population would love to have the future job prospects and earning potential that Libby has, even after his conviction.
And thank-you George Bush. I look forward to 8 years of a Democrat in the White House. (P.S. Bill Clinton gets impeached over lies concerning Monica "close but no cigar" Lewinsky, and what does Bush get for his usurping of the law, (in so many ways)? Nada.)
Remember in November 2008, to send a message that gets heard around the world. Maybe, just maybe the damage of this administration can be mitigated with a decade or two of competent and honourable political leaders. And while you're thinking about this, remember which party drove the national debt through the ceiling. Big hint: It wasn't the tax and spend Democrats. And the GOP that bastion of liberty-loving protectors of the rights of the individual, is the biggest, big brother the U.S. has ever seen. Love 'em or leave 'em, and personally I say leave 'em.
I leave you with this quote from the Apocalypse Now,
" KURTZ
Have you ever considered, any real
freedoms? Freedoms from the
opinions of others. Even the
opinions of yourself. Did they
say why, Willard? Why they wanted
to terminate my command?
WILLARD
I was sent on a classified mission,
sir.
KURTZ
Its no longer classified, is it.
What did they tell you?
WILLARD
They told me, that you had
gone...totally insane. And that
your methods were unsound.
KURTZ
Are my methods unsound?
WILLARD
I don't see any method at all,
sir."
And I don't see any method at all, but I do see an out of control administration, and hope that after this one, the American people never get another one quite like it.
*** This post advocates only legal methods of administration change, so don't think my quote from Apocalypse Now implies anything other than that. I hope GWB lives a long and healthy life.
The idea of Hillary Clinton, who invoked "I don't recall" 46 times before a granfd jury being remotely upset is bordering on a joke. But Amiericans love 2nd acts.
Want to talk "Apocalpyse", I give you this. In essnece, either understand that war is a filthy business to be undertaken as a last resort with ill humor and a ahrd heart, or don't bother. the guys who firebombed Dresden and nuked Hiroshima weren't worried about hearts and minds. The failure of Bush is to understand there's no polite way to do this, and to pretend othewise is folly.
"It's impossible for words... to describe... what is necessary... to those... who do not know... what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face. And you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror... are your friends. If they are not, then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces. Seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate... some children. We'd left the camp... after we had inoculated the children for polio. And this old man came running after us, and he was crying. He couldn't say. We went back there... and they had come and hacked off... every inoculated arm. There they were, in a pile-- a pile of... little arms. And I remember... I-I-- I cried. I wept like... some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot-- like I was shot with a diamond-- a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought, 'My God, the genius of that. The genius.' The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized... they were stronger than me because they could stand it. These were not monsters. These were men-- trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts... who have families, who have children... who are filled with love... that they had the strength-- the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men... then our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men... who are moral... and at the same time... who are able to... utilize their... primordial instincts to kill... without feeling, without passion... without judgment-- without judgment. Because it’s judgment that defeats us. I worry that my son... might not understand what I've tried to be. And if I were to be killed, Willard... I would want someone to go to my home... and tell my son everything. Everything I did.
I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a strait razor. That's my dream. It's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering along the edge of a strait razor... and surviving... But we must kill them. We must incinerate them. Pig after pig. Cow after cow. Village after village. Army after army. And they call me an assassin. What do you call it when the assassins accuse the assassin? They lie. They lie, and we have to be mericful for those who lie. Those nabobs. I hate them; I do hate them."
My God Bugg, I am glad those sentiments did not prevail during the Cuban Missile crisis or you and I would not be here having this oh so pleasant conversation.
And a final quote which falls in line with what you state is from Papal legate Arnaud-Amaury who upon being asked by a Crusader how to distinguish between Cathars and Catholics at the slaughter of Béziers said: "Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" — "Kill them [all]! Surely the Lord discerns which [ones] are his."
My point isn't we should have an army of Colonel Kurtzes. Simply that Bush should have considered that war is a last resort because it requires men to do things beyond themselves. Things which are last resorts because they are extreme. Again, we all get the "Greatest Generation" speech, but there were eff ups all around, and as above, they didn't play games or gnash teeth.
Understand our military heritage. We were founded by guys who blew English heads off because their breakfast beverage of choice was to them unduly taxed. We had Sherman marching through Georgia with serious bad intent. Read or watch anything about Iwo Jima or the Battle of the Bulge or the Chosin resevoir or Khe San or Tet. Wars are not won by worrying about whtehr your enemy has been offended, but by killing him.
That Bush undertook this with some seriously loopy ideas is what scares me most.We got LBJ II. We have to see that war shouldn't be taken lightly. If we're going in, we're going to hurt a whole bunch of people. And somehwere between Panama and Grenada and Gulf War I, the idea that you could get away with a bloodless war took hold. And that our military should act as combo caterers/social workers/ward healers-missions they have no business doing -also took hold. That all must end once and for all.
Simply as it's being fought-if you could call it "fought", with IEDs killing patrols on undefended roads ,mosques being used with impunity, people calling JAGs before defending themselves-this war is an abomination.
"I don't see any method at all, sir."
Doesn't that sound like the Bush administration planning for Iraq after the invasion?
In fact, the State Department did consult with experts and prepare a plan, which apparently Cheney and the neoconservatives didn't even bother to read.
Thanks Zero-Equals-Infinity for posting that dialogue.
Post a Comment
By submitting these comments, I agree to the beliefnet.com terms of service, rules of conduct and privacy policy (the "agreements"). I understand and agree that any content I post is licensed to beliefnet.com and may be used by beliefnet.com in accordance with the agreements.