Crunchy Con

What self-serving nonsense

Friday August 10, 2007

Categories: Democrats

The Kingfish, up to his usual lawyerly discourse:

Mr. Edwards also took the opportunity of the forum, which was organized by the Human Rights Campaign and shown on the Logo cable channel, to repudiate his past remark that his religious views had influenced his opposition to same-sex marriage.

“I shouldn’t have said that,” said Mr. Edwards, a Methodist, drawing applause. “We have seen a president in the last six-plus years who has tried to impose his faith on the American people. I will not try to impose my faith belief on the American people.”

What garbage. If Edwards reaches out to help the poor because of a sense, grounded in his religious faith, that that's what folks out to do, is he not imposing his "faith belief" on the American people? Was President Bush imposing his "faith belief" on the American people when he committed all those billions to fighting AIDS in Africa? This is such cheap rhetoric. Edwards doesn't share Bush's conservative Evangelicalism, which is fine, but don't tell me that if he were president, he wouldn't be guided by the moral principles taught to him by his understanding of religious faith. Funny how the left has no problem invoking religion when it comes to issues in which Christian teachings suit their policy goals. I've got no problem with that in principle, but spare me the risible pieties about Mr. Bush "imposing" his religion on the country.

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Comments
recovering ex-Pentecostal
August 13, 2007 11:14 AM

No "sparing", Rod. You haven't earned it.

"If Edwards reaches out to help the poor because of a sense, grounded in his religious faith, that that's what folks out [sic] to do, is he not imposing his "faith belief" on the American people?"

Whether or not Mr. Edwards "helps the poor", that is based on his own personal conscience, possibly, but by no means guaranteed to have been "grounded in his religious faith". He may just think it's the right thing to do.

TELLING others they MUST "help the poor" would be imposing his beliefs - religious or otherwise - on the American people.

"Was President Bush imposing his "faith belief" on the American people when he committed all those billions to fighting AIDS in Africa?"

Wrong analogy. Mr. Bush most DEFINITELY would impose HIS religious beliefs on ALL Americans by changing the Constitution to kick gay people out of its alleged guarantees of equal treatment before the law. His famous quote was "It's my job to 'protect' the sanctity of marriage". As if rights ought to be doled out based on the 'sanctifiability' o fone's relationships!

"This is such cheap rhetoric.'

You would know about "cheap rhetoric", Rod. "Lavender jackboots" anyone?

"Edwards doesn't share Bush's conservative Evangelicalism"

Thank God for THAT, I say.

"but don't tell me that if he were president, he wouldn't be guided by the moral principles taught to him by his understanding of religious faith."

Being "guided" by moral principles is one thing; imposing "religious beliefs" on all of America is entirely another. I don't think Mr. Edwards WOULD impose his religious beliefs on Americans. He has said as much. You just don't happen to agree with him on this subject.

interesting you should say that
August 13, 2007 11:27 AM

What's interesting to me is the forum was on 'gay issues', not abortion, Rod. Very, very few lesbians even GET pregnant; even fewer still decide to terminate the pregnancy after all the trouble they go to to become parents. ALL of their children are WANTED children.

"it would be more honest to recognize that that's what you're doing [opposing Bush's religious views], instead of standing against imposing religion on an unwilling society"

Why is that "more honest"? Bush DOES try to impose his religious views on Americans.

recovering ex-Pentecostal
August 13, 2007 11:38 AM

"What am I not getting?"

A lot, Rod. A lot!

"This idea that for an elected leader reach a public policy decision via a route that goes through church (or mosque, or synagogue) amounts to "imposing" one's beliefs on the people who elected the leader is rather flimsy."

No it isn't. The particular 'gay issue' at hand is same-sex marriage. If a politician decides, say, that his/her religion ALLOWS for it, that does NOT make it mandatory for ALL Americans. Currently (and under Bush's attempts to kick gay Americans out of the Constitutional "guarantee" of equal protections before the law), same-sex marriage is FORBIDDEN. That IS imposing (Bush's) religious tenets on ALL people, whether or not we agre with them or are of the same 9or NO) religion.

Is THAT clearer?

"If a secularist Democratic politician advocated legislation doing something that offended a certain segment of the religious community, would that politician stand accused of "imposing" her secularity on the American people?"

No. That would only be the case if it were REQUIRED of all people.

ALLOW vs. REQUIRE (or, more accurately, FORBID)

I can see the difference. Sorry that you can't.

recovering ex-Pentecostal
August 13, 2007 11:51 AM

"These pastors and pundits are going door to door imposing Evangelical sharia on a terrified public?"

Yes, Rod, they ARE. Only the 'doors' are people's e-mail inboxes. Imagine how large the mailing list IS from the combined AFA, FRC, FotF, "Moral" "Majority", Pat Robertson, Jimmy (2 wh0res) Swaggart, the late Jerry Falsewell, etc. etc. etc.

And it surely DOES terrify ME! They're out to restrict gay Americans' civil liberties. That IS a sort of "Evangelical sharia", imo.

redopto,

"I'm grievously disappointed with todays conservatives, but at least they don't mouth mindless nonsense about imposing religious belief."

Um, they don't HAVE to "mouth" any nonsense; they seem all too capable (and eager) to just impose the nonsense on America ("amend" the Constitutio, anyone???).

"Many of the answers here follow the same pattern, so clearly, there are liberals in the house!"

We aren't even allowed in the house anymore???

"By the definition of imposing religious belief they have tried to establish, everybody is imposing their religious belief on everybody else."

Nope. See above re ALLOW vs IMPOSE.

Cleveland
August 14, 2007 12:43 AM

Per the unnamed he-she attacking my favorable view of Franco, the man:
"PER CNN/TIME Historians estimate that in the first five years of the Franco regime, some 200,000 Republicans were executed or died in prison."

Why people continue to defend the filthy, sub-human system of murder, torture, lies and fear known as Communism, and why they continue to vilify the man who defeated it in his successful effort to save Spain, boggles the mind. During the Spanish Civil War, the humorously named "Republicans" were comprised of a coalition of Communists, Socialists and Anarchists. The Nationalist forces under Franco were comprised of Monarchists, traditionalist, Fascists and Catholics.

"One of the Nationalists' principal claimed motives was to confront the anti-clericalism of the Republican regime and to defend the Roman Catholic Church, which had been the target of attacks... Even before the war religious buildings were burnt without action on the part of the Republican authorities to prevent it. As part of the social revolution taking place, [other churches] were turned into Houses of the People. Similarly, many of the massacres perpetrated by the Republican side targeted the Catholic clergy. Franco's religious Moroccan Muslim troops found this repulsive and for the most part fought loyally and often ferociously for the Nationalists...[but over] 6000 clergy and religious were killed." WikipediA

Get that, Mz/Mr he-she, even the Muslims couldn't stand for the Communist slaughter of Catholic priests and nuns!

Furthermore, Mz/Mr he-she, you didn't post the complete thought:
"PER CNN/TIME Historians estimate that in the first five years of the Franco regime, some 200,000 Republicans were executed or died in prison. But Spain has changed a great deal since the 1930s. Although it remains very much a dictatorship, what now keeps most Spaniards loyal to the regime is not repression but prosperity. Since 1960, the country has had "only" 13 executions, including the latest five. While that record scarcely qualifies the Franco regime as a pioneer in civil liberties, the situation is far worse in Communist dictatorships, where political dissidents are frequently committed to a living death in secret police-run "mental hospitals" with much less outraged notice in the West (see box page 37). Franco remains a very special bete noire to most of Europe's leaders and to the leftist elite. Some of them, like the British union boss Jack Jones and Italy's Socialist leader Pietro Nenni, fought for the Republicans during the Spanish Civil War. Others were students in that era and grew up on a steady diet of real or imagined Franco atrocities...[In Europe, the object]...is to get Franco. The romantic memories of the International [Communist] Brigades and the frustrations of four decades have finally coalesced in one hate-object that binds together Western Europe's Communists, Socialists, students, Cabinet ministers...
[get Franco]." Gosh, I guess you forgot to mention that part of your own reference.

But you did mention atrocities which "historians estimated" after the war. You didn't say whether or not Franco was able to stop them, however, and you didn't mention atrocities during the war. Here are some on the part of the left:

"Atrocities were committed on both sides during the war. The use of terror against civilians foreshadowed World War II. Atrocities on the Republican side were committed by government agencies, ruling parties and groups of radical leftists (mainly anarchists) against the alleged rebel supporters, including the nobility, former landowners, rich farmers, industrialists, non-socialist workers and the Church. Other repressive actions in the Republican side were committed by specific factions such as the Stalinist NKVD (the Soviet secret police). Note that these crimes committed by the NKVD were carried out not only against the Nationalists but also against all those who did not share their ideology, even if they were fighting on the Republican side...

"Atrocities by the Left during what has been termed Spain's red terror took a great toll on the Catholic faithful, especially clerics, as churches, convents and monasteries were desecrated, pillaged and burned, 13 bishops, 4184 diocesan priests, 2365 male religious (among them 114 Jesuits) and 283 nuns were murdered, and there are accounts of Catholic faithful being forced to swallow rosary beads, thrown down mine shafts and priests being forced to dig their own graves before being buried alive." WikipediA.

You and your comrades never stop trying to cover up the reason Franco was fighting. Do you think we will forget? I'll take Franco over any of the present-day Democratic seekers of the White House. The world is paying dearly for flirting with Socialism in all its forms; we don't want any more of it here. Not even its medicine, thank you all the same.

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About Crunchy Con

Rod Dreher is an editorial columnist for the Dallas Morning News, and author of "Crunchy Cons" (Crown Forum), a nonfiction book about conservatives, most of them religious, whose faith and political convictions sometimes put them at odds with mainstream conservatives. The views expressed in this blog are his own.

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