Jonah Goldberg has a piece up today which poses a good point: “Remember 9/11!” once looked like it was going to be a battle cry for the ages up there with “Remember the Alamo!” Now, the only aspect of 9/11...
I know what you mean; this year feels like the first "normal" 9/11 to me too. I don't know, I suppose for the average person, not personally affected (those who lost loved ones, obviously, do not necessarily feel this way), five years is the limit; last year seemed dramatic, but now, honestly, it's suddenly not so much. It wasn't even until yesterday that I realized, "Oh, is it TOMORROW?" I don't know if this is really good or not.
As an added note, though, I've also been a bit shocked whenever I hear something is happening on "September 11th." Until recently I still jumped when I heard someone say "November 11th" or "December 11th."
God bless.
Brad
September 11, 2007 5:23 PM
"Will we ourselves have learned a thing? If so, what? Now is the time to be thinking about these things."
The thing that struck me most strongly about 9/11, and really resonates most saliently with me still was the thought that the whole event was executed by a bunch of guys with box cutters.
Are you f-ing kidding me? In 21st Century America, the nation that landed a man on the moon, a dozen or so stock boys can intimidate Americans with box cutters and carry this out on America?
Hopefully hereafter we will all be more willing to risk a cut, so to speak, even a deep, arterial one, to tear the mere box cutters of demagoguery, of weak and unconvincing argument, of our fears of discomfort, or of not being liked, or of looking provincial, out of the hands of those who would try to intimidate us with them and to hijack our chosen trajectories against our collective, reasoned, decisive common will.
Jeff
September 11, 2007 5:28 PM
I remember driving to lunch on a Saturday afternoon about month after 9/11 when I was struck with a might be called a mild panic attack. It occurred to me at that random moment that the next attack could happen at any moment and in any place. It was a terrifying to feel that vulnerable and I had to pull over, get out of the car, and catch my breath.
I think about that moment every so often just to remind myself how so little has changed because of 9/11. Going to the airport and NFL games can be inconvenient experiences now although I'm not confident the increased airport security or the mandatory pat down required at football stadiums make anyone any safer.
John Feinstein wrote after 9/11 that the event will force us to rethink sports cliches like "air attack" or "played like warriors." That certainly didn't happen. Our nation's foreign policy remains reckless. The national attitude toward oil and energy hasn't changed. Consumerism still rules the day on the homefront. Remember the whole Christmas 2001 shtick about giving picture frames and other sentimental gifts. How laughable that seems now.
We remain an arrogant, ignorant, apathetic people. Or as Edward R. Murrow once put it: "Our history will be what we make it. If we go on as we are, then history will take its revenge, and retribution will not limp in catching up with us."
Six years later I know longer think the attacks of 9/11 were the greatest tragedy of 9/11...the real tragedy is that we, as a nation, have allowed those 3000 people to die on 9/11 in vain.
What have we learned Charlie Brown?
Anonymous
September 11, 2007 5:31 PM
Toasting you, Rod, to your courage on that day, your taste in all things good and your willingness to go on and move on+.
Here's toasting to US (as in all of the US) to being hopeful that that "spell" might truly be broken.
(That is how I felt on that day, that we were put under some kind of a spell).
Heifer
Brad
September 11, 2007 5:31 PM
My corollary to the above is this: we hear all to often the phrase "Everything changed on 9/11!"
Horsesh*t! Everything changed when the cave lion made off with your baby sister and had her as an appetizer, monkey-boy, and the only thing that might have changed since is your own suitable tenderization to follow her as the entree.
Brad
September 11, 2007 5:34 PM
"the above" I was referring to was my own, to me immediately prior, post.
Will
September 11, 2007 6:17 PM
"Will we ourselves have learned a thing? If so, what? Now is the time to be thinking about these things."
Collectively, we haven't learned much. The FBI has spent more time, money and manpower on the post9-11 anthrax case than any other case in FBI history, and has zilch to show for it. Our borders are just as porous as they ever were. A majority of Americans still apparently believe that Saddam Hussein and Iraq were responsible for 9-11.
Most importantly, Americans still consume more oil per capita than any other country, and 2/3 of that oil is imported. Americans don't know that they consume more oil than China and Russia combined.
Most Americans don't know how years of bungled US foreign policy created the perfect medium for breeding resentment that lead to terrorism.
So in short, we haven't learned much. And most of live in a moral fanstasy world where right and wrong is as simple as whatever we want it to be, regardless of what our religious texts tell us.
But we have a big wake-up call coming soon.
Larry Parker
September 11, 2007 7:31 PM
Democrats don't object to the war on terror; they object to the war in Iraq. Important distinction -- and I know you make it, Rod, but nevertheless, it needs to be repeated.
Also, as far as the conspiracy theories about the President ... if he had embraced the national unity that rose up after 9/11 and not pursued Karl Rove's 51% strategy (a year after the WTC and Pentagon, the GOP was airing TV commercials in Georgia morphing a Democratic senator who had left three of his limbs in a rice paddy in Vietnam into Osama Bin Laden) ... and if he had managed the war in Iraq, unnecessary though it was IMHO, with even a modicum of competence, maybe Americans who desperately want to be patriotic wouldn't think such sinister thoughts about their Commander-in-Chief.
Franklin Evans
September 11, 2007 8:01 PM
What we have not learned, in no particular order.
1) A free and open society cannot be made safe. A safe society cannot be free.
2) Corollary to #1: politicians who know how to make you believe the opposite of that are lying to you for their own purposes. Whatever part of their purposes might turn out to be benign for you, is giving up freedom worth it?
3) We fire law enforcement officers for racial profiling, vilify politicians who were at some point associated with racist groups, and a man who uses the word "niggardly" correctly in a sentence can (albeit temporarily) lose his job because ignorant people can't use a dictionary. We have given unchecked power to the executive branch to do or accomplish all of those things with impunity.
4) The most popular television shows enhance their ratings by using cruel mockery. Before that, cruel mockery was used to illustrate why it is evil.
Brent
September 11, 2007 8:16 PM
But we have a big wake-up call coming soon.
What is keep us from making the same mistakes after this wake-up call? If the events of 9/11 were supposed to make us change our ways, and it didn't, what will?
I agree: as a nation we are, have been and seemingly will be driven by consumerism. But what can change it? I don't think another attack will change it. For my own part, absent the Iraq war, GWOT, 9/11, I have been trying to change my own ways with regard to consumerism. I don't think I see 9/11 as representing that lesson, at least insofar as it has been represented in our culture since then.
My own emotions regarding this particular date have not been what one would call dramatic or extreme. On the actual day, as the towers were hit, burned and imploded before me on the TV screen, I felt a strong and personal conviction to strike back. I don't think I have recalled that in any special way on this date since, perhaps because I have since taken steps to do my part for my country--I returned to the Army and became a commissioned officer. I see this as my calling, my vocation--my profession, as the Army puts it. I haven't had any emotions tied to this particular day not because I have forgotten those events or my feelings on that day (I don't think I can) but I think it is because I am living out my desires formed on, and by, that day.
I have learned a lot since that day. Chiefly, that those whom I looked upon as the kind of leaders that would only lead us in the right direction (as evidenced by their actions on and immediately after 9/11) are just as fallible as the next human. I hope and pray that I can be the kind of leader, at my level, that is able to adapt quickly, honestly and realistically, to be the kind of leader to my troops that these leaders have failed to be.
Scott in PA
September 11, 2007 8:41 PM
We didn't learn the most obvious lesson from September 11: that Islam is irreconcilable with Western culture.
The dust had not even settled from the towers' collapse and we were calling it a "Religion of Peace". Political correctness rolled on as ever before.
We're brainwashed with the idea that non-discrimination is the highest value and that any discrimination is irrational.
Will
September 11, 2007 8:58 PM
"What is keep us from making the same mistakes after this wake-up call? If the events of 9/11 were supposed to make us change our ways, and it didn't, what will?"
Economics. Even if we manage to continue our occupation of Iraq at the current "acceptable" levels of blood and treasure, we cannot maintain this level forever. The military is stretched thin. We have a negative savings rate as a nation. We have a staggering national debt and an economy that is increasingly based on the churning of derivative markets that produces phney paper wealth while producing nothing of real value.
Then mix in "peak oil" for good measure. Ask Rod's buddy Jim Kunstler. It's coming. The neo-cons and Cheney's energy task force understand this, but the average American has no clue.
If Bush had come out to Ground Zero after 9-11 and blamed the attacks on America's addiction to imported oil, he could have rallied every American into a frenzy of conservation and energy efficiency efforts.
But that didn't fit the neo-conservative goals for the Middle East. So we get a phoney GWOT instead.
Read the policy papers at newamericancentury.org . The Muslim Brotherhood got nothin' on these guys.
Bugg
September 11, 2007 9:29 PM
I agree with those who complain that PC nonsense has taken over. Does anyone feel more safe going through airport security? Want to live-PROFILE. Pardon me if the Patriot Act, Gitmo and rush weekend at Abu Graib are small beer. But I digress...
We've also learned that the "yes, but" Muslims in our midst don't want to be Americans. They cannot be trusted. They cannot and will not embrace America; they merely live here. And they almost certainly hate us. And I'm tired of the whining, complaining, and the constant embrace of victimhood. You don't want to be Americans? This place and it's people are so awful? Fine. Get thee to LAX and JFK and go back. To quote that noted philosopher Axl Rose, don't think you're going to start your mini-Iran here. Tolerance and pluralism are not a voluntary death sentence.
Ultimaltey, though, our president has been a disaster on so many levels. The lack of leadership has been abysmal.
He's suppsoedly an oilman. We can safely and easily drill off our shores and in ANWR. We could develop clean coal technology. We could increase wind and solar power. He instead did NOTHING.
He could've closed the borders if he had the will. He could've stopped anyone from coming through. When you compare what you endure at the airport, it's appalling to think ANYONE could walk into our country. Instead, he tried to ram through idiocy. Words fail me.
He could've sough a declaration of war from Congress. He could've put the Saudi royalty on notice that their embrace of Bin Laden would be viewed as the actions of an enemy combatant. He could've let Musharaf and all know that we would stop at noting to put Bin Laden's head on a stick, and anyone who opposed us would also be considered an enemey comabatant. He of course did no such thing. Instead, the Saudi princes, backstabbing whoremongering double dealers, got barbeque invite in Texas, and kept funneling cash to Al Qaeda.
I'm willing to consider that the Iraqi invasion was a case of putting the baddest guys on the planet on notice things would change. But ultimately it was more of the same. It was done with too few troops. Those troops were put under imbecilic rules of engagement that killed many of them needlessly. And instead of simply killing bad guys-things soldier are trained to do-they were tasked to build a nation.Why is Sadr still alive? Better to teach pigs to sing. And then the silly PC nonsense took hold, of course.
The idea that we can impose democracy on an Islamic cesspool is simply insanity. I lost friends and neighbors and schoolmates 9/11. I saw the Towers fall from Brooklyn. And I smelled the burning flesh. I will never embrace the Left's perspective, but damn if anyone can explain what Bush has wrought.
Brent
September 11, 2007 9:40 PM
Will, I don't think Americans would have understood or responded to Bush if he had blamed 9-11 on our addiction to imported oil. Maybe it's just me, but that sounds really close to the kind of things said by people like Jerry Fallwell. In any case, I don't think that Americans would or could have accepted any kind of argument that meant that it was all our fault in the first place, even if it was addiction to foreign oil. Immediately following 9-11, the president did exactly the right things, and for the right reasons. Our dependence on foreign oil affects our policies, but that alone did not motivate OBL or his cohorts to attack us. One of his reasons was our military presence in the Middle East long after the end of the Gulf War; his issue is not so much our presence as it was the presence of the infidel.
I get what you are saying about economics, though. I wonder if we can keep up the cost of the war in Iraq indefinitely, in terms of the money and the stress that frequency of deployments put on servicemembers and their families. This is what you meant by the wake-up call, that the bottom would fall out of our economy, right? Would it be too late, then, when this wake-up call comes?
Red Dirt
September 11, 2007 10:40 PM
A little late to this discussion - but the 9/11 anniversary is an annual pessimistic reminder for me that this country lacks the seriousness it might have once had to confront the darkness we face.
I've indicated I have a flair for rhetorical excess, but here I don't think I overstate the case too much here: America will get hit again - hard. And we won't have the stomach or fight or resolve as a nation to do much of anything about it.
I suppose we could argue endlessly about the justification for Iraq and how swimmingly it hasn't gone and on and on. I told all of my friends before we invaded Iraq (mostly those friends just to the left of center of the political spectrum) that if they weren't prepared for a bloodbath and a snake pit and a long haul, then they shouldn't support the invasion. I supported the invasion, but I had clear eyes about the violent cost we would incur. Others didn't.
I was pretty realpolitik in my outlook when we invaded Iraq. For example, every time I see a "no blood for oil" slogan at a protest rally on television, I think "Really? No blood for that? Do you even realize what you're saying with that bit of shallow sloganeering? Because we'd better be willing to give blood for oil. If we're not, then billions of people will starve to death. Are you willing to countenance that kind of evil?"
That's just one example of what I mean by our nation's lack of seriousness about all of this.
The barbarians are at the gate. And those barbarians want no part of the republican form of democratic government we offer. The Middle East is a furnace for forging an abundance of sociopathic monsters feverishly seeking as much human death and misery as they can possibly create, because they believe their faith commands such mass murder.
"We love death," they have told us repeatedly, and they have certainly shown their fervent fondness for it.
Far too many Americans would prefer to ignore the death-cult jihadists and watch another episode of "LOST." The sad truth is that America does not have the will to fight this darkness to the finish. As Nietzsche predicted, the "eclipse of all values" is upon us. And at this precise moment in history -- just Western civilization limps along on the last vestiges of Judeo-Christian values, having already declared God dead and embraced cultural nihilism as a hip ironic pose -- we face another civilization that is no mood for such effete silliness.
John Quincy Adams rightly observed in his writings about the struggles of the Greeks against the Turks in the 19th century: "The precept of the Koran is, perpetual war against all who deny, that Mahomet is the prophet of God ... THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE." [capital letters from Adams' original writings]
So we face a civilization built around a twisted form of monotheism that has morphed into a death cult -- They are lovers of death, just as they have so plainly said, obsessed with the symbols of death and the rituals of violence. And in their desire to exterminate the Jewish people, there's not a hair's breadth difference between al Qaeda's footsoldiers, the Shiite Hezbollah or the storm troopers of the Third Reich. They are in Baghdad, in southern Lebanon, in Gaza, in Damascus, in Afghanistan and in Tehran. As soon as they're ready (i.e. the long view of the Muslim Brotherhood Rod himself alluded to on this very blog earlier this week) they'll be here again too.
While America and Europe slosh around in shallow end of the pool like toddlers, the sharks at the deep have definite purpose and drive. Their God isn't dead -- no, Allah is in a constant bloody rage.
Meanwhile, the cute Western intellectual elites, having already declared our God dead, are about to declare the human self dead, too. And they're even prepared to inflict other curious dystopian horrors on us on our down the civilization flusher (such as animal-human hybrid "chimeras" and the like).
When you can't even rely on the solidity of your own personal identity, what's left to fight for? And when "The Island of Dr. Moreau" is on the verge of becoming reality in this culture, what's the real motivation to give anyone passion about fighting for it?
Precisely.
Regardless of how articulate Bush is, or "how he handled the politics of this thing badly," our nation has become addicted to easy fights, simple explanations and instant history.
Clearly, the cultural Marxists (and I use that term specifically and purposefully -- look it up, if you must) slowly gathering power within the DNC really don't care all that much for the Judeo-Christian republic founded more than 200 years ago. It won't really hurt their feelings too terribly to see it all crumble after another devastating blow from the Koranic death cultists. They'd just as soon live under dhimmitude. I have a feeling we'll all get to find out how much they really like paying the jizya.
The various hippy trippy visions offered by the Left in America -- such as the notion of a Department of Peace to replace the Department of Defense -- are as dreamy and illusory as the notion spun by the Bush administration that we would be greeted with flowers in the streets of Baghdad.
Though they brag about belonging to the "reality-based community," leftists in our nation act like puerile adolescents unable to discern reality from fantasy. Since leftists really don't believe in anything, paradoxically they'll believe almost any conspiracy theory about the evil genius of Karl Rove, or the secret lair of Dick Cheney or the plot to steal elections with Diebold machines. And paradoxically they'll allow the full onslaught of the jihadist death cult coming to a theater of reality near you soon -- an ideology which definitely offers belief in something -- to fill the vacuum of ideas they've created.
Repeatedly, leftists have sanctimoniously exhorted us to "understand" the Middle East, Islam and the Arabic worldview. This process of "understanding" is now upon our nation. For me, it means that I'm tired of hearing our politicians -- especially Bush -- claim that Islam is a religion of peace, when we can all see plainly that this is not so. If only we'd listened to the voices trying to warn us from the history books.
Read what Nietzsche predicted: "If the doctrines ... of the lack of any cardinal distinction between man and animal, doctrines I consider true but deadly, are hurled into the people for another generation ... then nobody should be surprised when brotherhoods with the aim of the robbery and exploitation of the non-brothers will appear in the arena of the future."
So the death-cult jihadists will strike hard. And when they do, the terror will make 9/11 look like a pinprick. By the midpoint of this century or even sooner -- having failed to muster the courage to fight and lacking any respect for its own traditions -- I have no doubt that the West as we now conceive it will pass into history.
History will roll on, and with China actually well on its way to becoming a Christian nation (10,000 converts a day by some estimates), the death cult Islam will probably find itself confronting a newer and much more robust foe within the next few decades.
But in the romantic histories yet to be written in Arabic or Standard Mandarin, we probably won't merit much beyond a footnote. How's that for marking the 9/11 anniversary?
Brad
September 11, 2007 11:30 PM
Okay!
So...who still wants to colonize Mars?
Anyone?
Red Dirt
September 11, 2007 11:36 PM
I'm game -- I hear the air is clear, if a bit thin, and a man can really stretch his legs out in those wide open spaces.... I'm laying claim to Olympus Mons (just because it would be cool to own the solar system's biggest mountain) and wherever it was they thought they found water
:-)
Brent
September 11, 2007 11:42 PM
I wonder if there's any oil on Mars?
Red Dirt
September 11, 2007 11:58 PM
Brent, if there is, be assured that the Chinese will take it. They're winning that space race thingy, too.
PatientWitness
September 12, 2007 1:15 AM
Red Dirt is Donny with an English degree. I usually don't respond much here but as I don't see Richard Bottoms commenting lately, allow me to address:
"I've indicated I have a flair for rhetorical excess, but here I don't think I overstate the case too much here: America will get hit again - hard. And we won't have the stomach or fight or resolve as a nation to do much of anything about it."
You must not be from Texas, boy. All it takes to start a fight around here is a sideways glance. More on this topic below....
"I supported the invasion, but I had clear eyes about the violent cost we would incur. Others didn't."
So how many tours of duty have you been on? And on what did you base your support for the war? Greed for oil? Bloodlust?
"Because we'd better be willing to give blood for oil."
Again, have you shed any of your blood in this noble fight? I wonder if AnotherBeliever thinks her blood is worth cheap gasoline for you....
"The Middle East is a furnace for forging an abundance of sociopathic monsters feverishly seeking as much human death and misery as they can possibly create"
I can't argue much with this statement. One such monster is too many. But I wouldn't limit this breeding ground to just the middle east.
"Western civilization limps along on the last vestiges of Judeo-Christian values, having already declared God dead"
You're kidding, right? The last vestiges of Judeo-Christian values? Stop taking Rod's word for it and just look around you. There's a church on every corner. The Texas lege just added reference to God in the Texas pledge all schoolchildren recite. The coins of the realm still bear "In God We Trust". My inbox is full of "Hillary is Satan" emails. And so on....
"So we face a civilization built around a twisted form of monotheism that has morphed into a death cult"
Death cults do not usually survive long enough to evolve into a civilization.
"And they're even prepared to inflict other curious dystopian horrors on us on our down the civilization flusher (such as animal-human hybrid "chimeras" and the like)."
Perhaps you should have studied more science so you wouldn't be so afraid of biology. There is a difference between science and science fiction.
"Clearly, the cultural Marxists (and I use that term specifically and purposefully -- look it up, if you must) slowly gathering power within the DNC really don't care all that much for the Judeo-Christian republic founded more than 200 years ago. It won't really hurt their feelings too terribly to see it all crumble after another devastating blow from the Koranic death cultists. They'd just as soon live under dhimmitude. I have a feeling we'll all get to find out how much they really like paying the jizya."
You know, at first I was insulted that you equate Dems with cowards but then I thought about those cowards in Congress and cannot argue the point.
"The various hippy trippy visions offered by the Left in America -- such as the notion of a Department of Peace to replace the Department of Defense"
The ramblings of a few flower children do not constitute the bulk of thought proffered by those of us left of center, and it disengenuous for you to suggest that.
"Though they brag about belonging to the "reality-based community," leftists in our nation act like puerile adolescents unable to discern reality from fantasy."
How dare you insult 49% of the American public in that fashion! Indeed, I submit to you that those of us on the left have a clearer vision for what's best for this country than anyone you've put into office lately.
"Repeatedly, leftists have sanctimoniously exhorted us to "understand" the Middle East, Islam and the Arabic worldview."
You write as if that's a bad thing. Whether they be friend or foe, it's always a good idea to understand who we're dealing with.
Your repeated reliance on quotes from Nietzsche may look good on paper but really do nothing to advance any argument. No one gives him any thought anymore, and for good reason.
And one final quote from you: "By the midpoint of this century or even sooner -- having failed to muster the courage to fight and lacking any respect for its own traditions -- I have no doubt that the West as we now conceive it will pass into history."
Your credibility is now completely shot. I dare you to tell my son or anyone in his Marine unit, or AnotherBeliever, or any other person wearing the uniform, or any cop or firefighter on the street, or any retired veteran, or just about anyone else who calls himself an American, whether liberal, conservative or apolitical, that he doesn't have the courage to fight. You will not like the outcome.
No, Red Dirt, what we on the left despise is unnecessary violence, illegal wars based on lies, having our Constitution violated by those who have sworn an oath to uphold it. We despise having our moral high-ground, so abundant after 9/11/2001, squandered by the mistakes and crimes of a greedy, power-hungry yet stupid president. And we despise sanctimonious and uncritical thinking, especially in someone as intelligent and well-versed as you.
Joe
September 12, 2007 8:33 AM
PatientWitness
Well said.
Brad
September 12, 2007 9:03 AM
Obviously the irony in my little chirp about Mars, above--contrasting all too recent days when we were a nation seized with the excitement and will to external exploration (to infinity and beyond!) with the days we have inherited since that have found us inner- and Internet-directed and absorbed (to infinity and beyond!), navel-gazing and lotus-eating (no matter how Divine or mundane the lotus bud), fatalistically resigned to death cults and dark ages--was lost, or never realized, wafted away like a fart in a whirlwind. ;-)
Franklin Evans
September 12, 2007 9:15 AM
Amongst all the rhetoric, Red Dirt provided this opening:
America will get hit again - hard.
Let's see... what happened the last time American got hit hard? Hm. A sovereign nation was invaded, training camps were destroyed, many people in them killed and many more scattered in search of a hole to crawl into, and an entire government replaced, all in a matter of months.
Oh, right. The next thing that happened was an unprovoked, unjustified invasion of another sovereign nation at the same time, indeed stifling and reducing the effort in the first, provoked and justified action before it was half finished. And now we are paying for some ground twice over, because the Taliban were given a chance to regroup.
Moral action, or political expediency? You make the call! [end sarcasm]
Hit hard? Bring it on!! We are the only free and open society in the world. For all that we've been spitting on that tradition lately, ours is the template on which every major democracy is based. Ours is the tradition of representative government. Ours is the exemplar of peaceful transition of power in government. Ours is (well, or was) the haven for those who cannot make those things in their own homelands.
The value of blood is freedom. That is what we spend it for. Every drop spent for political expediency is a crime. Honor the professional soldiers serving in Iraq, not because of what they are doing, but for what it is they are doing in despite of the mistakes of their commanders. "Support our troops" is a bald-faced lie covering the true words: "support my political agenda."
Brad
September 12, 2007 9:17 AM
"Your repeated reliance on quotes from Nietzsche may look good on paper but really do nothing to advance any argument. No one gives him any thought anymore, and for good reason."
Actually, anyone with any pretense to intelligence gives him a great deal of thought, as they equally do to all the rest of the Western canon including its Biblical sources and derivatives. It's simply that Nietzsche, like the Bible, goes in and out of academic and cultural fashion with an almost clockwork regularity.
Of course, bad applications of badly misconstrued and misunderstood isolated quotes, like Nietzsche's bang-on observation of the effects, specifically nihilism, Darwinism would wreak on 19th Century Christianity and its descendants that Red Dirt seems to be incongruously roping into this thread, don't help.
obmoody
September 12, 2007 9:23 AM
I still agree with Red Dirt.
Brent
September 12, 2007 9:42 AM
Red Dirt - By the midpoint of this century or even sooner -- having failed to muster the courage to fight and lacking any respect for its own traditions -- I have no doubt that the West as we now conceive it will pass into history.
PatientWitness - I dare you to tell my son or anyone in his Marine unit, or AnotherBeliever, or any other person wearing the uniform, or any cop or firefighter on the street, or any retired veteran, or just about anyone else who calls himself an American, whether liberal, conservative or apolitical, that he doesn't have the courage to fight.
PatientWitness, I daresay that Red Dirt was not talking about the Marines in your son's unit, or others wearing the uniform. He's talking about the rest of America; only 3% of this country wears a military uniform, while the rest have no idea what it means to serve let alone the knowledge of the military culture and the professional military's overall viewpoint on the GWOT. Check out today's WSJ, the article "Our New National Divide" by Owen West which explains this difference much more eloquently than I can.
Brad
September 12, 2007 2:39 PM
BTW, Kim, I hope you're not mad at me for piggybacking off your "female Ann Coulter" comment. Someone sent me that pic and pointed out that anatomical curiosity, and I've just been lying in wait to use it. ;-)
John E.
September 12, 2007 2:45 PM
PatientWitness, you had me at "Donny with an English degree"
PatientWitness
September 12, 2007 8:33 PM
Thanks, John E. I like your writing as well...and Kim's, Canucklehead's, Richard Bottom's (where is he?), and several others. As someone commented the other day (Larry Parker maybe?), even when we disagree on this blog it usually remains a civil discourse.
Will
September 14, 2007 10:40 AM
"...As a reminder this was appeal to emotion by you was prompted by my discussion of the surface sloganeering of those who would claim "No Blood for Oil." My argument was that such slogans don't reflect careful or serious thought about what they are saying. It's not greed for oil (another appeal to emotion, appeal to spite, etc.) on my part, nor what I pay at the pump."
Wow, you took Rhetoric 101 too? It - the motivation for the 'war' in Iraq - might not be greed for oil "on your part" but it is most assuredly on the part of the "non-negotiable American way of life." Surely someone who knows rhetoric like you do would know that because something's not true for you, that it's not true for others.
It might seem like surface sloganeering to you, but Cheney (and other "deciders") has said on mulitple occasions that the US cannot allow the world's largest reserves of oil to fall into the hands of extremists. And the reason he says that is because the US uses more oil per capita than any other country on earth. The US uses more oil than Russia and China combined, and the health of our economy is dependant on a constant flow of oil. If those reserves of oil were to fall into the hands of those who are not sympathetic to our oil addiction, our economy would fall like a house of cards.
This is the reason we occupy Iraq - it is the center of the world's largest remaining reserves of oil, convenient striking distance from Saudi Arabia and Iran.
Red Dirt
September 14, 2007 1:47 PM
Will,
I think we're talking past each other.
Your statement - "This is the reason we occupy Iraq - it is the center of the world's largest remaining reserves of oil, convenient striking distance from Saudi Arabia and Iran."
That's my entire point, when I question the "no blood for oil" histrionics. That's precisely what I'm saying. Think it through. I have.
I'm all for conservation efforts on a massive scale. In fact, I think this is something that would have united the country even more after 9/11 -- and it was a missed opportunity. We need more rail, more light rail, more tax incentives for alternative energy, a national crash program in conservation and new energy sources, and more. That's not really the point, though.
Regardless of America's massive oil consumption, if the oil infrastructure collapses, then billions of people all over the world will suffer terribly. I repeat: oil is, quite literally, food. Oil and natural gas are involved in the plowing, planting, fertilization, irrigation and harvest of the world's food supply.
Now that's the system we have now, and it won't change overnight. You can't wish it away. Yes, the health of our economy is absolutely dependent on oil. No question about it. Again, my point precisely. But more than the health of our economy is at stake. If the oil supply is threatened, the food supply is threatened -- not just the Cheez Doodles we eat, as James Howard Kunstler likes to say, but basic food staples.
That's the reality I'm asking the "no blood for oil" sloganeers to understand, to connect the dots. Surely you're not willing to countenance mass starvation, regardless of how you feel about things like SUV's?
We can talk all day about energy-gluttonous lifestyles, but that misses the essential point. Incidentally, I drive a fuel-efficient Honda. My house is filled with CFC bulbs. I grow a vegetable garden in my backyard. I compost. I mow my lawn with human-powered push reel. I practice energy conservation. I recycle. I do all of this and more -- most of it alleviates my conscience, but does very little to change the facts on the ground. It does nothing to change the fact of our reliance on petroleum -- not just America, but the world.
I am a realist. I believe our decadent culture is imploding, is hollowed out, and cannot confront or truly understand real evil. This has been starkly illustrated by the past 6 years, post-9/11. I believe that we have arrived at the "eclipse of all values" predicted by Nietzsche, and that many dystopian nightmares are about to be inflicted on us by materialist science, much of it predicted in the minds of fiction writers from the early and mid-20th century. I believe peak oil is just around the corner, and will be another hard reality our culture is incapable of understanding or confronting head-on. I believe that Islam is a murderous, violent world view that fervently seeks bloodshed and death for its own sake. And I believe Western civilization is well on its way to losing this very real clash of civilizations.
I would like for this dismal mix of factors things to change. I am pessimistic that they will.
Will
September 14, 2007 5:27 PM
"I believe peak oil is just around the corner, and will be another hard reality our culture is incapable of understanding or confronting head-on. I believe that Islam is a murderous, violent world view that fervently seeks bloodshed and death for its own sake."
I'll concede that I didn't understand your criticism of "no blood for oil" histrionics. I assumed that criicism meant you regard the occupation as a "blood for peace" or some other glittering platitude. I was prepared to agree with you 100% about PO, right up until you issued the blanket condemnation of Islam. I'll concede that there are murderous, violent people who're labeled Muslims, but I'll have to insist that murderous, violent "Christians" and "Jews" pose just as great a risk to Western civilization as Islam does, and those muderous, violent Christians and Jews have more capital and WMD than all of Islam combined.
Again I will plead for those itching for war with Islam to re-examine the long, sordid history of bungled Western intervention in traditionally Muslim countries to understand the escalating cycle of violence we see now.
Red Dirt
September 14, 2007 7:49 PM
Will,
Equating violent Christians or Jews with the level of terror and bloodshed Islam is prepared to inflict just does not work. With the exception of a few groups trying to carry out abortion clinic bombings or showing up at soldiers' funerals to protest homosexuuals, there are not that many Christian extremists. The myth of "Christofascists" or armies of evangelicals wishing to impose a theocracy is just that - a myth.
Take it from someone who is both an evangelical and someone who spent time as a reporter thoroughly investigating radical "common law," militia and Christian extremist groups in the United States (and facing death threats for the work).
Equating the small number of fringe radicals in the U.S. that comprise such groups with muscular Islam is simply absurd. You've probably been watching too many films like "Jesus Camp" - Go out and get some fresh air and a fresh dose of reality.
Christianity and Judaism do not command their faithful to wage unending war on unbelievers. They just don't, no matter how strenuously leftists try to make these sorts of connections. Neither the Bible nor the Torah exhort believers to wage open-ended holy war.
However, Islam clearly does command such violence. Islam is a neatly-designed religion of war. It is a religion of complete intolerance to unbelievers (by contrast, Christianity was the ground from which our republic and the freedoms it brings grew). Islam subjugates women (by contrast, Christianity was the ground from which equality of the sexes emerged). Islam maintains slavery (by contrast, the West exorcised slavery from its midst through the efforts of committed Christians a century and a half ago).
What's more, your unfortunately typical rehashing of past history ignores the real history: "Christendom" as it used to be called only reacted to continual hostile Muslim incursions. Islam continually tested Christendom's defenses and took more and more territory, converting believers by the sword along the way, until Muslim warriors reached the gates of Vienna and fought a final battle in 1683.
Of that battle, Polish military leader John Sobieski said, "It is not a city alone that we have to save, but the whole of Christianity, of which the city of Vienna is the bulwark. This war is a holy one."
Though Islam was weakened after this time, more than a century later even John Quincy Adams felt compelled to warn his countrymen:
"In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar [i.e., Muhammad], the Egyptian, [.....] Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST.- TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE.... Between these two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years has already raged. The war is yet flagrant ... While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon earth, and good will towards men."
And still the jihad continues. Islam is not a "religion of peace" as we have been repeatedly told. Please understand, this does not mean we should persecute Muslims in America. I can be clear-eyed and critical about this death-cult religion without calling for Muslims to be rounded up and deported, so please do not distort what I am saying. They have every right to the religious freedoms our founders fought for.
But our hollowed-out secularist civilization stands no chance against muscular Islam that is rousing itself in these first years of the 21st century.
No, I don't think I overstate the case. Islam is the mirror image of Western civilization. While there may be men and women of peace and goodwill living within the confines of Islam, the cultural imperative is bloody jihad, and conversion by the sword. In the West, while there may be extremists, the cultural imperative is peace and prosperity.
If we can rouse ourselves from the secularist slumber of the 20th century, and the postmodern nihilist sleepwalking of our current era, we may yet win the clash of civilizations. Otherwise, plainly, we will lose.
Franklin Evans
September 14, 2007 8:08 PM
Historical perspectives are always instructive, Red Dirt. My disagreement with your rhetoric (all sarcasm aside, now) is the pithy verbal enhancements you seem to enjoy.
Anyway, if you put Christendom and Islamoworld on a cyclic representation of historical trends, you would (generalizing, of course) find Islam following a very similar track to the one Christendom followed, albeit a few centuries behind.
I do not doubt the danger some of Islam represents. I do doubt the perspective of modern Christians who brush off comparisons with a lame "well, we aren't that way any more". The danger of Christian aggression was real and immediate for several centuries. It matured and moved beyond it. To insist on indicting an entire religion whilst warning of the dangers of some of its members is no more valid than a modern pagan (myself, for example) refusing to trust modern Christendom because of the violent excesses of its past, or even because of contemporary examples of cruelty.
Stand up against aggression from Islamic fanatics. I'm right there with you. Just don't expect us (non-Christians at the least) to swallow whole any sort of blanket condemnation. The Christian conquest of Europe and the ensuing hegemony was worthy of the same condemnation. That is neither a strawman nor a diversion. It's a call to rehumanize the bulk of Muslims your broad sweep blithely demonizes.
Will
September 14, 2007 8:33 PM
"With the exception of a few groups trying to carry out abortion clinic bombings or showing up at soldiers' funerals to protest homosexuuals, there are not that many Christian extremists."
By that narrow definition, no, there are not that many. Let's look at a few nominal Chrstians, CINOs if you prefer. George Bush is a Christian extremist. He makes a big show of his faith, and he used and uses that fascade of faith to win concensus for preemptive war, torture, a perpetual war of disinformation, all of which are antithetical to true Christianity. As is your shallow, blanket condemnation of Islam.
"What's more, your unfortunately typical rehashing of past history ignores the real history: "Christendom" as it used to be called only reacted to continual hostile Muslim incursions."
So that's how you explain the Sykes-Picot Agreement? Mossadegh's overthrow? Iran-contra? Osirak?
This is why we have perpetual war - your blinkered refusal to learn from these events.
Red Dirt
September 14, 2007 11:36 PM
Wow, Will, I thought we were having a fairly conducive discussion. But your conflation of my brief recap of Islamic conquest over the past 1,200 years with the short few decades of recent Middle East turmoil makes me wonder.
How did we go from talking about the Muslims about to storm Vienna in 1683 to Iran-contra? I'm not sure I follow you.
Nor am I following how Osirak fits into all of this in your view -- unless it was to remind us all that Saddam Hussein once almost got busy with nukes before the Israelis put a stop to it.
Red Dirt
September 15, 2007 1:01 AM
Franklin, I'm afraid I can't stop the pithy verbal enhancements; they're part of the fun of this hobby. I'm in love with my own purple prose, and I don't have an editor. So the misery is all yours :)
Will
September 15, 2007 10:01 AM
"How did we go from talking about the Muslims about to storm Vienna in 1683 to Iran-contra? I'm not sure I follow you."
That's because you suffer from Christian myopia - you either can't or won't see anything done by nominal Christians to ratchet up the tension between the US and other countries.
And it's a pity, because you would appear to be one of the few commentors on this blog who "gets" PO and the implications. I've come to expect the knee-jerk, one-sided condemnation of Islam from Rod Dreher and other CINOs, but it is a tad demoralizing to hear it come from alsmost every quarter of American life.
A lot of us "liberal/progressive" types understand full-well that there are Muslims who are violent and murderous. But we also understand that there are millions of CINOs who have the same blood-lust in their hearts. That blood lust does not manifest itself as a one-for-one exchange of IEDs or explosive vests, but US taxpayer funded cruise missiles, bunker busters and predator drones are every bit as lethal as IEDs.
That's what bewilders me about Rod Dreher and millions of other CINOs who on the surface appear to be curious, intelligent people professing belief in what Jesus Christ taught. Yet when you scratch that surface, you find hateful, revengeful people who willfully ignore everything Christ taught. Like you, they seem intent on wiping out entire populations so that their version of Christianity can be safe from reprisals from other myopic survivors of short-sighted US foreign policy.
The cycle of violence has to stop somewhere. Jesus had something to say on that subject. This is still a blog about religion, spritituality and faith, isn't it?
Will
September 15, 2007 10:08 AM
"The Christian conquest of Europe and the ensuing hegemony was worthy of the same condemnation. That is neither a strawman nor a diversion. It's a call to rehumanize the bulk of Muslims your broad sweep blithely demonizes."
Amen. Thank you, Franklin.
Franklin Evans
September 15, 2007 10:18 AM
Fair enough, Red Dirt. I would suggest, then, that comments about "conducive discussion" might be labelled unreasonable expectation.
I'm also a bit non-plussed. For someone who has obviously read his history (more than most), you seem to put more emphasis on religion than on (say) economics or politics.
Religion is the most common label used to control mass opinion and justify the further label of enemy. It works equally well to foment hatred against the other, as it does to unify the masses behind a political agenda. Robert Heinlein wrote (though I'm not sure it was original with him) that nations always go to war for practical reasons. Soldiers need high ideals to put their lives on the line, and nationalism is often not enough. Religion is often the easiest road to producing a non-stop supply of cannon fodder. Quod erat demonstrandum.
As a pagan, I believe I have more motivation than most to look at the Abrahamic monotheisms with a jaundiced eye. I maintain that your indictment of Islam is the same demonization practiced on my spiritual forbearers, on Christian missionaries in non-Christian countries, and with intranecine fanaticism in northern Ireland.
Red Dirt
September 15, 2007 12:39 PM
"That's what bewilders me about Rod Dreher and millions of other CINOs who on the surface appear to be curious, intelligent people professing belief in what Jesus Christ taught. Yet when you scratch that surface, you find hateful, revengeful people who willfully ignore everything Christ taught. Like you, they seem intent on wiping out entire populations so that their version of Christianity can be safe from reprisals from other myopic survivors of short-sighted US foreign policy."
Will, this is a massive and unfair distortion of my position. When have I advocated "wiping out entire populations"? For a student of rhetoric, I expected a little more intellectual honesty.
But first let's talk about this idea that America is on the verge of becoming a theocracy. It ain't so, and you know it. In fact, Will, as you are probably aware, atheism runs rampant throughout American society. Polls show widespread adherence to Christian belief, but I think you would agree this is not really the case. Let me give you a brief example: Jeff Skilling, the man responsible for wiping out retirement savings of thousands of Enron employees, was a committed atheist and social Darwinian (a fact laid out in some detail in the documentary "The Smartest Guys in the Room"). Yes, "Kenny Boy" was the head of the company, but Skilling was the real engineer of Enron's rise and fall.
I know that many people would like to ascribe things like Enron to some sort of imaginary "Christianist" far right cabal of "Repuglicans" -- but that paranoid way of seeing the world does not hold up to careful, thoughtful scrutiny. In fact, an atheist world view drove that debacle. Enron was the product of our postmodern nihilist age, just as our bloated car-driven culture is (admittedly, I've wondered a little far off track in my original point, but I thought it worth raising).
In reply to this whole "vengefulness" allegation you make, I would first point out that I have no desire to commit genocide. Truly disappointed that you would feel the need to taint your arguments by making such a charge. I simply wish not to live under dhimmitude. And as I feel I already pay enough taxes, the jizya is distasteful to me.
I would simply expand upon an old aphorism from, I believe, from Justice Robert H. Jackson ... "The Constitution is not a suicide pact." Nor, in my personal view, is the New Testament (Jonestown Flavor-aid drinkers aside).
Red Dirt
September 15, 2007 12:49 PM
As an addendum, let me just say that I consider my participation in this particular tread at an end. It's not that I don't enjoy having an ongoing discussion with Will and Franklin and others on this topic -- I really do enjoy it. It's just that I feel the lengthy combox thread essentially confirms my original point a-way back yonder earlier this week: That our culture is in the throes of breakdown and collapse, and that we do not have the will or seriousness or understanding required to face a challenge from muscular, murderous Islam. Europe will go first; its already well on its way. America will stand alone for awhile, but hollowed out as our nation is, it will take only one or perhaps two more big hits from the jihadists to tumble us. With peak oil on the way, I expect it all to be quite finished within another decade or two. Cheers to all for an interesting discussion, but I consider it pointless beyond here.
Will
September 15, 2007 2:08 PM
"But first let's talk about this idea that America is on the verge of becoming a theocracy. It ain't so, and you know it. In fact, Will, as you are probably aware, atheism runs rampant throughout American society."
Why the red-herring detour into American Theocracy? Your distaste for Islam blinds you to how the world sees George Bush, arguably the most powerful man on earth, and a self-professed, born-again Christian.
This born again Christian, arguably the most powerful man in the world, manufactured evidence so that he could justify bombing Muslim populations. He knew that innocent life would be lost.
The most powerful man on earth. A Christian. A liar. People notice these things. Sometimes they get mad and seek revenge.
And excuse me if I over-stated your distaste for Islam, but I didn't detect any sympathy or partial respect for Islam in your comments. And I can say with existential certainty that you will not live one day of your life under dhimmitude, so your fears on that are just a little disengenuous.
As for the Enron scandal, I agree that there's nothing uniquely Republican, Christian etc. about the Enron crooks. Greed knows no single party or group. The fact that Ken Lay was a friend of the Bush family, and spent the night in Lincoln's bedroom during a Bush administration is just a coincidence, I suppose. Could happen to anyone. The fact that self-professed born-again Christians consort with such scum as Ken Lay is disappointing for those who have higher standards for Christian conduct. But that's the American way, I guess.
I'll conclude by saying I agree with your Peak Oil prognosis, but regret you have so much energy invested in hating Islam, as this is only a little more positive feedback for a growing cycle of violence that saps resources from more productive endeavors.
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Rod Dreher is an editorial columnist for the Dallas Morning News, and author of "Crunchy Cons" (Crown Forum), a nonfiction book about conservatives, most of them religious, whose faith and political convictions sometimes put them at odds with mainstream conservatives. The views expressed in this blog are his own.
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I know what you mean; this year feels like the first "normal" 9/11 to me too. I don't know, I suppose for the average person, not personally affected (those who lost loved ones, obviously, do not necessarily feel this way), five years is the limit; last year seemed dramatic, but now, honestly, it's suddenly not so much. It wasn't even until yesterday that I realized, "Oh, is it TOMORROW?" I don't know if this is really good or not.
As an added note, though, I've also been a bit shocked whenever I hear something is happening on "September 11th." Until recently I still jumped when I heard someone say "November 11th" or "December 11th."
God bless.
"Will we ourselves have learned a thing? If so, what? Now is the time to be thinking about these things."
The thing that struck me most strongly about 9/11, and really resonates most saliently with me still was the thought that the whole event was executed by a bunch of guys with box cutters.
Are you f-ing kidding me? In 21st Century America, the nation that landed a man on the moon, a dozen or so stock boys can intimidate Americans with box cutters and carry this out on America?
Hopefully hereafter we will all be more willing to risk a cut, so to speak, even a deep, arterial one, to tear the mere box cutters of demagoguery, of weak and unconvincing argument, of our fears of discomfort, or of not being liked, or of looking provincial, out of the hands of those who would try to intimidate us with them and to hijack our chosen trajectories against our collective, reasoned, decisive common will.
I remember driving to lunch on a Saturday afternoon about month after 9/11 when I was struck with a might be called a mild panic attack. It occurred to me at that random moment that the next attack could happen at any moment and in any place. It was a terrifying to feel that vulnerable and I had to pull over, get out of the car, and catch my breath.
I think about that moment every so often just to remind myself how so little has changed because of 9/11. Going to the airport and NFL games can be inconvenient experiences now although I'm not confident the increased airport security or the mandatory pat down required at football stadiums make anyone any safer.
John Feinstein wrote after 9/11 that the event will force us to rethink sports cliches like "air attack" or "played like warriors." That certainly didn't happen. Our nation's foreign policy remains reckless. The national attitude toward oil and energy hasn't changed. Consumerism still rules the day on the homefront. Remember the whole Christmas 2001 shtick about giving picture frames and other sentimental gifts. How laughable that seems now.
We remain an arrogant, ignorant, apathetic people. Or as Edward R. Murrow once put it: "Our history will be what we make it. If we go on as we are, then history will take its revenge, and retribution will not limp in catching up with us."
Six years later I know longer think the attacks of 9/11 were the greatest tragedy of 9/11...the real tragedy is that we, as a nation, have allowed those 3000 people to die on 9/11 in vain.
What have we learned Charlie Brown?
Toasting you, Rod, to your courage on that day, your taste in all things good and your willingness to go on and move on+.
Here's toasting to US (as in all of the US) to being hopeful that that "spell" might truly be broken.
(That is how I felt on that day, that we were put under some kind of a spell).
Heifer
My corollary to the above is this: we hear all to often the phrase "Everything changed on 9/11!"
Horsesh*t! Everything changed when the cave lion made off with your baby sister and had her as an appetizer, monkey-boy, and the only thing that might have changed since is your own suitable tenderization to follow her as the entree.
"the above" I was referring to was my own, to me immediately prior, post.
"Will we ourselves have learned a thing? If so, what? Now is the time to be thinking about these things."
Collectively, we haven't learned much. The FBI has spent more time, money and manpower on the post9-11 anthrax case than any other case in FBI history, and has zilch to show for it. Our borders are just as porous as they ever were. A majority of Americans still apparently believe that Saddam Hussein and Iraq were responsible for 9-11.
Most importantly, Americans still consume more oil per capita than any other country, and 2/3 of that oil is imported. Americans don't know that they consume more oil than China and Russia combined.
Most Americans don't know how years of bungled US foreign policy created the perfect medium for breeding resentment that lead to terrorism.
So in short, we haven't learned much. And most of live in a moral fanstasy world where right and wrong is as simple as whatever we want it to be, regardless of what our religious texts tell us.
But we have a big wake-up call coming soon.
Democrats don't object to the war on terror; they object to the war in Iraq. Important distinction -- and I know you make it, Rod, but nevertheless, it needs to be repeated.
Also, as far as the conspiracy theories about the President ... if he had embraced the national unity that rose up after 9/11 and not pursued Karl Rove's 51% strategy (a year after the WTC and Pentagon, the GOP was airing TV commercials in Georgia morphing a Democratic senator who had left three of his limbs in a rice paddy in Vietnam into Osama Bin Laden) ... and if he had managed the war in Iraq, unnecessary though it was IMHO, with even a modicum of competence, maybe Americans who desperately want to be patriotic wouldn't think such sinister thoughts about their Commander-in-Chief.
What we have not learned, in no particular order.
1) A free and open society cannot be made safe. A safe society cannot be free.
2) Corollary to #1: politicians who know how to make you believe the opposite of that are lying to you for their own purposes. Whatever part of their purposes might turn out to be benign for you, is giving up freedom worth it?
3) We fire law enforcement officers for racial profiling, vilify politicians who were at some point associated with racist groups, and a man who uses the word "niggardly" correctly in a sentence can (albeit temporarily) lose his job because ignorant people can't use a dictionary. We have given unchecked power to the executive branch to do or accomplish all of those things with impunity.
4) The most popular television shows enhance their ratings by using cruel mockery. Before that, cruel mockery was used to illustrate why it is evil.
But we have a big wake-up call coming soon.
What is keep us from making the same mistakes after this wake-up call? If the events of 9/11 were supposed to make us change our ways, and it didn't, what will?
I agree: as a nation we are, have been and seemingly will be driven by consumerism. But what can change it? I don't think another attack will change it. For my own part, absent the Iraq war, GWOT, 9/11, I have been trying to change my own ways with regard to consumerism. I don't think I see 9/11 as representing that lesson, at least insofar as it has been represented in our culture since then.
My own emotions regarding this particular date have not been what one would call dramatic or extreme. On the actual day, as the towers were hit, burned and imploded before me on the TV screen, I felt a strong and personal conviction to strike back. I don't think I have recalled that in any special way on this date since, perhaps because I have since taken steps to do my part for my country--I returned to the Army and became a commissioned officer. I see this as my calling, my vocation--my profession, as the Army puts it. I haven't had any emotions tied to this particular day not because I have forgotten those events or my feelings on that day (I don't think I can) but I think it is because I am living out my desires formed on, and by, that day.
I have learned a lot since that day. Chiefly, that those whom I looked upon as the kind of leaders that would only lead us in the right direction (as evidenced by their actions on and immediately after 9/11) are just as fallible as the next human. I hope and pray that I can be the kind of leader, at my level, that is able to adapt quickly, honestly and realistically, to be the kind of leader to my troops that these leaders have failed to be.
We didn't learn the most obvious lesson from September 11: that Islam is irreconcilable with Western culture.
The dust had not even settled from the towers' collapse and we were calling it a "Religion of Peace". Political correctness rolled on as ever before.
We're brainwashed with the idea that non-discrimination is the highest value and that any discrimination is irrational.
"What is keep us from making the same mistakes after this wake-up call? If the events of 9/11 were supposed to make us change our ways, and it didn't, what will?"
Economics. Even if we manage to continue our occupation of Iraq at the current "acceptable" levels of blood and treasure, we cannot maintain this level forever. The military is stretched thin. We have a negative savings rate as a nation. We have a staggering national debt and an economy that is increasingly based on the churning of derivative markets that produces phney paper wealth while producing nothing of real value.
Then mix in "peak oil" for good measure. Ask Rod's buddy Jim Kunstler. It's coming. The neo-cons and Cheney's energy task force understand this, but the average American has no clue.
If Bush had come out to Ground Zero after 9-11 and blamed the attacks on America's addiction to imported oil, he could have rallied every American into a frenzy of conservation and energy efficiency efforts.
But that didn't fit the neo-conservative goals for the Middle East. So we get a phoney GWOT instead.
Read the policy papers at newamericancentury.org . The Muslim Brotherhood got nothin' on these guys.
I agree with those who complain that PC nonsense has taken over. Does anyone feel more safe going through airport security? Want to live-PROFILE. Pardon me if the Patriot Act, Gitmo and rush weekend at Abu Graib are small beer. But I digress...
We've also learned that the "yes, but" Muslims in our midst don't want to be Americans. They cannot be trusted. They cannot and will not embrace America; they merely live here. And they almost certainly hate us. And I'm tired of the whining, complaining, and the constant embrace of victimhood. You don't want to be Americans? This place and it's people are so awful? Fine. Get thee to LAX and JFK and go back. To quote that noted philosopher Axl Rose, don't think you're going to start your mini-Iran here. Tolerance and pluralism are not a voluntary death sentence.
Ultimaltey, though, our president has been a disaster on so many levels. The lack of leadership has been abysmal.
He's suppsoedly an oilman. We can safely and easily drill off our shores and in ANWR. We could develop clean coal technology. We could increase wind and solar power. He instead did NOTHING.
He could've closed the borders if he had the will. He could've stopped anyone from coming through. When you compare what you endure at the airport, it's appalling to think ANYONE could walk into our country. Instead, he tried to ram through idiocy. Words fail me.
He could've sough a declaration of war from Congress. He could've put the Saudi royalty on notice that their embrace of Bin Laden would be viewed as the actions of an enemy combatant. He could've let Musharaf and all know that we would stop at noting to put Bin Laden's head on a stick, and anyone who opposed us would also be considered an enemey comabatant. He of course did no such thing. Instead, the Saudi princes, backstabbing whoremongering double dealers, got barbeque invite in Texas, and kept funneling cash to Al Qaeda.
I'm willing to consider that the Iraqi invasion was a case of putting the baddest guys on the planet on notice things would change. But ultimately it was more of the same. It was done with too few troops. Those troops were put under imbecilic rules of engagement that killed many of them needlessly. And instead of simply killing bad guys-things soldier are trained to do-they were tasked to build a nation.Why is Sadr still alive? Better to teach pigs to sing. And then the silly PC nonsense took hold, of course.
The idea that we can impose democracy on an Islamic cesspool is simply insanity. I lost friends and neighbors and schoolmates 9/11. I saw the Towers fall from Brooklyn. And I smelled the burning flesh. I will never embrace the Left's perspective, but damn if anyone can explain what Bush has wrought.
Will, I don't think Americans would have understood or responded to Bush if he had blamed 9-11 on our addiction to imported oil. Maybe it's just me, but that sounds really close to the kind of things said by people like Jerry Fallwell. In any case, I don't think that Americans would or could have accepted any kind of argument that meant that it was all our fault in the first place, even if it was addiction to foreign oil. Immediately following 9-11, the president did exactly the right things, and for the right reasons. Our dependence on foreign oil affects our policies, but that alone did not motivate OBL or his cohorts to attack us. One of his reasons was our military presence in the Middle East long after the end of the Gulf War; his issue is not so much our presence as it was the presence of the infidel.
I get what you are saying about economics, though. I wonder if we can keep up the cost of the war in Iraq indefinitely, in terms of the money and the stress that frequency of deployments put on servicemembers and their families. This is what you meant by the wake-up call, that the bottom would fall out of our economy, right? Would it be too late, then, when this wake-up call comes?
A little late to this discussion - but the 9/11 anniversary is an annual pessimistic reminder for me that this country lacks the seriousness it might have once had to confront the darkness we face.
I've indicated I have a flair for rhetorical excess, but here I don't think I overstate the case too much here: America will get hit again - hard. And we won't have the stomach or fight or resolve as a nation to do much of anything about it.
I suppose we could argue endlessly about the justification for Iraq and how swimmingly it hasn't gone and on and on. I told all of my friends before we invaded Iraq (mostly those friends just to the left of center of the political spectrum) that if they weren't prepared for a bloodbath and a snake pit and a long haul, then they shouldn't support the invasion. I supported the invasion, but I had clear eyes about the violent cost we would incur. Others didn't.
I was pretty realpolitik in my outlook when we invaded Iraq. For example, every time I see a "no blood for oil" slogan at a protest rally on television, I think "Really? No blood for that? Do you even realize what you're saying with that bit of shallow sloganeering? Because we'd better be willing to give blood for oil. If we're not, then billions of people will starve to death. Are you willing to countenance that kind of evil?"
That's just one example of what I mean by our nation's lack of seriousness about all of this.
The barbarians are at the gate. And those barbarians want no part of the republican form of democratic government we offer. The Middle East is a furnace for forging an abundance of sociopathic monsters feverishly seeking as much human death and misery as they can possibly create, because they believe their faith commands such mass murder.
"We love death," they have told us repeatedly, and they have certainly shown their fervent fondness for it.
Far too many Americans would prefer to ignore the death-cult jihadists and watch another episode of "LOST." The sad truth is that America does not have the will to fight this darkness to the finish. As Nietzsche predicted, the "eclipse of all values" is upon us. And at this precise moment in history -- just Western civilization limps along on the last vestiges of Judeo-Christian values, having already declared God dead and embraced cultural nihilism as a hip ironic pose -- we face another civilization that is no mood for such effete silliness.
John Quincy Adams rightly observed in his writings about the struggles of the Greeks against the Turks in the 19th century: "The precept of the Koran is, perpetual war against all who deny, that Mahomet is the prophet of God ... THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE." [capital letters from Adams' original writings]
So we face a civilization built around a twisted form of monotheism that has morphed into a death cult -- They are lovers of death, just as they have so plainly said, obsessed with the symbols of death and the rituals of violence. And in their desire to exterminate the Jewish people, there's not a hair's breadth difference between al Qaeda's footsoldiers, the Shiite Hezbollah or the storm troopers of the Third Reich. They are in Baghdad, in southern Lebanon, in Gaza, in Damascus, in Afghanistan and in Tehran. As soon as they're ready (i.e. the long view of the Muslim Brotherhood Rod himself alluded to on this very blog earlier this week) they'll be here again too.
While America and Europe slosh around in shallow end of the pool like toddlers, the sharks at the deep have definite purpose and drive. Their God isn't dead -- no, Allah is in a constant bloody rage.
Meanwhile, the cute Western intellectual elites, having already declared our God dead, are about to declare the human self dead, too. And they're even prepared to inflict other curious dystopian horrors on us on our down the civilization flusher (such as animal-human hybrid "chimeras" and the like).
When you can't even rely on the solidity of your own personal identity, what's left to fight for? And when "The Island of Dr. Moreau" is on the verge of becoming reality in this culture, what's the real motivation to give anyone passion about fighting for it?
Precisely.
Regardless of how articulate Bush is, or "how he handled the politics of this thing badly," our nation has become addicted to easy fights, simple explanations and instant history.
Clearly, the cultural Marxists (and I use that term specifically and purposefully -- look it up, if you must) slowly gathering power within the DNC really don't care all that much for the Judeo-Christian republic founded more than 200 years ago. It won't really hurt their feelings too terribly to see it all crumble after another devastating blow from the Koranic death cultists. They'd just as soon live under dhimmitude. I have a feeling we'll all get to find out how much they really like paying the jizya.
The various hippy trippy visions offered by the Left in America -- such as the notion of a Department of Peace to replace the Department of Defense -- are as dreamy and illusory as the notion spun by the Bush administration that we would be greeted with flowers in the streets of Baghdad.
Though they brag about belonging to the "reality-based community," leftists in our nation act like puerile adolescents unable to discern reality from fantasy. Since leftists really don't believe in anything, paradoxically they'll believe almost any conspiracy theory about the evil genius of Karl Rove, or the secret lair of Dick Cheney or the plot to steal elections with Diebold machines. And paradoxically they'll allow the full onslaught of the jihadist death cult coming to a theater of reality near you soon -- an ideology which definitely offers belief in something -- to fill the vacuum of ideas they've created.
Repeatedly, leftists have sanctimoniously exhorted us to "understand" the Middle East, Islam and the Arabic worldview. This process of "understanding" is now upon our nation. For me, it means that I'm tired of hearing our politicians -- especially Bush -- claim that Islam is a religion of peace, when we can all see plainly that this is not so. If only we'd listened to the voices trying to warn us from the history books.
Read what Nietzsche predicted: "If the doctrines ... of the lack of any cardinal distinction between man and animal, doctrines I consider true but deadly, are hurled into the people for another generation ... then nobody should be surprised when brotherhoods with the aim of the robbery and exploitation of the non-brothers will appear in the arena of the future."
So the death-cult jihadists will strike hard. And when they do, the terror will make 9/11 look like a pinprick. By the midpoint of this century or even sooner -- having failed to muster the courage to fight and lacking any respect for its own traditions -- I have no doubt that the West as we now conceive it will pass into history.
History will roll on, and with China actually well on its way to becoming a Christian nation (10,000 converts a day by some estimates), the death cult Islam will probably find itself confronting a newer and much more robust foe within the next few decades.
But in the romantic histories yet to be written in Arabic or Standard Mandarin, we probably won't merit much beyond a footnote. How's that for marking the 9/11 anniversary?
Okay!
So...who still wants to colonize Mars?
Anyone?
I'm game -- I hear the air is clear, if a bit thin, and a man can really stretch his legs out in those wide open spaces.... I'm laying claim to Olympus Mons (just because it would be cool to own the solar system's biggest mountain) and wherever it was they thought they found water
:-)
I wonder if there's any oil on Mars?
Brent, if there is, be assured that the Chinese will take it. They're winning that space race thingy, too.
Red Dirt is Donny with an English degree. I usually don't respond much here but as I don't see Richard Bottoms commenting lately, allow me to address:
"I've indicated I have a flair for rhetorical excess, but here I don't think I overstate the case too much here: America will get hit again - hard. And we won't have the stomach or fight or resolve as a nation to do much of anything about it."
You must not be from Texas, boy. All it takes to start a fight around here is a sideways glance. More on this topic below....
"I supported the invasion, but I had clear eyes about the violent cost we would incur. Others didn't."
So how many tours of duty have you been on? And on what did you base your support for the war? Greed for oil? Bloodlust?
"Because we'd better be willing to give blood for oil."
Again, have you shed any of your blood in this noble fight? I wonder if AnotherBeliever thinks her blood is worth cheap gasoline for you....
"The Middle East is a furnace for forging an abundance of sociopathic monsters feverishly seeking as much human death and misery as they can possibly create"
I can't argue much with this statement. One such monster is too many. But I wouldn't limit this breeding ground to just the middle east.
"Western civilization limps along on the last vestiges of Judeo-Christian values, having already declared God dead"
You're kidding, right? The last vestiges of Judeo-Christian values? Stop taking Rod's word for it and just look around you. There's a church on every corner. The Texas lege just added reference to God in the Texas pledge all schoolchildren recite. The coins of the realm still bear "In God We Trust". My inbox is full of "Hillary is Satan" emails. And so on....
"So we face a civilization built around a twisted form of monotheism that has morphed into a death cult"
Death cults do not usually survive long enough to evolve into a civilization.
"And they're even prepared to inflict other curious dystopian horrors on us on our down the civilization flusher (such as animal-human hybrid "chimeras" and the like)."
Perhaps you should have studied more science so you wouldn't be so afraid of biology. There is a difference between science and science fiction.
"Clearly, the cultural Marxists (and I use that term specifically and purposefully -- look it up, if you must) slowly gathering power within the DNC really don't care all that much for the Judeo-Christian republic founded more than 200 years ago. It won't really hurt their feelings too terribly to see it all crumble after another devastating blow from the Koranic death cultists. They'd just as soon live under dhimmitude. I have a feeling we'll all get to find out how much they really like paying the jizya."
You know, at first I was insulted that you equate Dems with cowards but then I thought about those cowards in Congress and cannot argue the point.
"The various hippy trippy visions offered by the Left in America -- such as the notion of a Department of Peace to replace the Department of Defense"
The ramblings of a few flower children do not constitute the bulk of thought proffered by those of us left of center, and it disengenuous for you to suggest that.
"Though they brag about belonging to the "reality-based community," leftists in our nation act like puerile adolescents unable to discern reality from fantasy."
How dare you insult 49% of the American public in that fashion! Indeed, I submit to you that those of us on the left have a clearer vision for what's best for this country than anyone you've put into office lately.
"Repeatedly, leftists have sanctimoniously exhorted us to "understand" the Middle East, Islam and the Arabic worldview."
You write as if that's a bad thing. Whether they be friend or foe, it's always a good idea to understand who we're dealing with.
Your repeated reliance on quotes from Nietzsche may look good on paper but really do nothing to advance any argument. No one gives him any thought anymore, and for good reason.
And one final quote from you: "By the midpoint of this century or even sooner -- having failed to muster the courage to fight and lacking any respect for its own traditions -- I have no doubt that the West as we now conceive it will pass into history."
Your credibility is now completely shot. I dare you to tell my son or anyone in his Marine unit, or AnotherBeliever, or any other person wearing the uniform, or any cop or firefighter on the street, or any retired veteran, or just about anyone else who calls himself an American, whether liberal, conservative or apolitical, that he doesn't have the courage to fight. You will not like the outcome.
No, Red Dirt, what we on the left despise is unnecessary violence, illegal wars based on lies, having our Constitution violated by those who have sworn an oath to uphold it. We despise having our moral high-ground, so abundant after 9/11/2001, squandered by the mistakes and crimes of a greedy, power-hungry yet stupid president. And we despise sanctimonious and uncritical thinking, especially in someone as intelligent and well-versed as you.
PatientWitness
Well said.
Obviously the irony in my little chirp about Mars, above--contrasting all too recent days when we were a nation seized with the excitement and will to external exploration (to infinity and beyond!) with the days we have inherited since that have found us inner- and Internet-directed and absorbed (to infinity and beyond!), navel-gazing and lotus-eating (no matter how Divine or mundane the lotus bud), fatalistically resigned to death cults and dark ages--was lost, or never realized, wafted away like a fart in a whirlwind. ;-)
Amongst all the rhetoric, Red Dirt provided this opening:
America will get hit again - hard.
Let's see... what happened the last time American got hit hard? Hm. A sovereign nation was invaded, training camps were destroyed, many people in them killed and many more scattered in search of a hole to crawl into, and an entire government replaced, all in a matter of months.
Oh, right. The next thing that happened was an unprovoked, unjustified invasion of another sovereign nation at the same time, indeed stifling and reducing the effort in the first, provoked and justified action before it was half finished. And now we are paying for some ground twice over, because the Taliban were given a chance to regroup.
Moral action, or political expediency? You make the call! [end sarcasm]
Hit hard? Bring it on!! We are the only free and open society in the world. For all that we've been spitting on that tradition lately, ours is the template on which every major democracy is based. Ours is the tradition of representative government. Ours is the exemplar of peaceful transition of power in government. Ours is (well, or was) the haven for those who cannot make those things in their own homelands.
The value of blood is freedom. That is what we spend it for. Every drop spent for political expediency is a crime. Honor the professional soldiers serving in Iraq, not because of what they are doing, but for what it is they are doing in despite of the mistakes of their commanders. "Support our troops" is a bald-faced lie covering the true words: "support my political agenda."
"Your repeated reliance on quotes from Nietzsche may look good on paper but really do nothing to advance any argument. No one gives him any thought anymore, and for good reason."
Actually, anyone with any pretense to intelligence gives him a great deal of thought, as they equally do to all the rest of the Western canon including its Biblical sources and derivatives. It's simply that Nietzsche, like the Bible, goes in and out of academic and cultural fashion with an almost clockwork regularity.
Of course, bad applications of badly misconstrued and misunderstood isolated quotes, like Nietzsche's bang-on observation of the effects, specifically nihilism, Darwinism would wreak on 19th Century Christianity and its descendants that Red Dirt seems to be incongruously roping into this thread, don't help.
I still agree with Red Dirt.
Red Dirt - By the midpoint of this century or even sooner -- having failed to muster the courage to fight and lacking any respect for its own traditions -- I have no doubt that the West as we now conceive it will pass into history.
PatientWitness - I dare you to tell my son or anyone in his Marine unit, or AnotherBeliever, or any other person wearing the uniform, or any cop or firefighter on the street, or any retired veteran, or just about anyone else who calls himself an American, whether liberal, conservative or apolitical, that he doesn't have the courage to fight.
PatientWitness, I daresay that Red Dirt was not talking about the Marines in your son's unit, or others wearing the uniform. He's talking about the rest of America; only 3% of this country wears a military uniform, while the rest have no idea what it means to serve let alone the knowledge of the military culture and the professional military's overall viewpoint on the GWOT. Check out today's WSJ, the article "Our New National Divide" by Owen West which explains this difference much more eloquently than I can.
BTW, Kim, I hope you're not mad at me for piggybacking off your "female Ann Coulter" comment. Someone sent me that pic and pointed out that anatomical curiosity, and I've just been lying in wait to use it. ;-)
PatientWitness, you had me at "Donny with an English degree"
Thanks, John E. I like your writing as well...and Kim's, Canucklehead's, Richard Bottom's (where is he?), and several others. As someone commented the other day (Larry Parker maybe?), even when we disagree on this blog it usually remains a civil discourse.
"...As a reminder this was appeal to emotion by you was prompted by my discussion of the surface sloganeering of those who would claim "No Blood for Oil." My argument was that such slogans don't reflect careful or serious thought about what they are saying. It's not greed for oil (another appeal to emotion, appeal to spite, etc.) on my part, nor what I pay at the pump."
Wow, you took Rhetoric 101 too? It - the motivation for the 'war' in Iraq - might not be greed for oil "on your part" but it is most assuredly on the part of the "non-negotiable American way of life." Surely someone who knows rhetoric like you do would know that because something's not true for you, that it's not true for others.
It might seem like surface sloganeering to you, but Cheney (and other "deciders") has said on mulitple occasions that the US cannot allow the world's largest reserves of oil to fall into the hands of extremists. And the reason he says that is because the US uses more oil per capita than any other country on earth. The US uses more oil than Russia and China combined, and the health of our economy is dependant on a constant flow of oil. If those reserves of oil were to fall into the hands of those who are not sympathetic to our oil addiction, our economy would fall like a house of cards.
This is the reason we occupy Iraq - it is the center of the world's largest remaining reserves of oil, convenient striking distance from Saudi Arabia and Iran.
Will,
I think we're talking past each other.
Your statement - "This is the reason we occupy Iraq - it is the center of the world's largest remaining reserves of oil, convenient striking distance from Saudi Arabia and Iran."
That's my entire point, when I question the "no blood for oil" histrionics. That's precisely what I'm saying. Think it through. I have.
I'm all for conservation efforts on a massive scale. In fact, I think this is something that would have united the country even more after 9/11 -- and it was a missed opportunity. We need more rail, more light rail, more tax incentives for alternative energy, a national crash program in conservation and new energy sources, and more. That's not really the point, though.
Regardless of America's massive oil consumption, if the oil infrastructure collapses, then billions of people all over the world will suffer terribly. I repeat: oil is, quite literally, food. Oil and natural gas are involved in the plowing, planting, fertilization, irrigation and harvest of the world's food supply.
Now that's the system we have now, and it won't change overnight. You can't wish it away. Yes, the health of our economy is absolutely dependent on oil. No question about it. Again, my point precisely. But more than the health of our economy is at stake. If the oil supply is threatened, the food supply is threatened -- not just the Cheez Doodles we eat, as James Howard Kunstler likes to say, but basic food staples.
That's the reality I'm asking the "no blood for oil" sloganeers to understand, to connect the dots. Surely you're not willing to countenance mass starvation, regardless of how you feel about things like SUV's?
We can talk all day about energy-gluttonous lifestyles, but that misses the essential point. Incidentally, I drive a fuel-efficient Honda. My house is filled with CFC bulbs. I grow a vegetable garden in my backyard. I compost. I mow my lawn with human-powered push reel. I practice energy conservation. I recycle. I do all of this and more -- most of it alleviates my conscience, but does very little to change the facts on the ground. It does nothing to change the fact of our reliance on petroleum -- not just America, but the world.
I am a realist. I believe our decadent culture is imploding, is hollowed out, and cannot confront or truly understand real evil. This has been starkly illustrated by the past 6 years, post-9/11. I believe that we have arrived at the "eclipse of all values" predicted by Nietzsche, and that many dystopian nightmares are about to be inflicted on us by materialist science, much of it predicted in the minds of fiction writers from the early and mid-20th century. I believe peak oil is just around the corner, and will be another hard reality our culture is incapable of understanding or confronting head-on. I believe that Islam is a murderous, violent world view that fervently seeks bloodshed and death for its own sake. And I believe Western civilization is well on its way to losing this very real clash of civilizations.
I would like for this dismal mix of factors things to change. I am pessimistic that they will.
"I believe peak oil is just around the corner, and will be another hard reality our culture is incapable of understanding or confronting head-on. I believe that Islam is a murderous, violent world view that fervently seeks bloodshed and death for its own sake."
I'll concede that I didn't understand your criticism of "no blood for oil" histrionics. I assumed that criicism meant you regard the occupation as a "blood for peace" or some other glittering platitude. I was prepared to agree with you 100% about PO, right up until you issued the blanket condemnation of Islam. I'll concede that there are murderous, violent people who're labeled Muslims, but I'll have to insist that murderous, violent "Christians" and "Jews" pose just as great a risk to Western civilization as Islam does, and those muderous, violent Christians and Jews have more capital and WMD than all of Islam combined.
Again I will plead for those itching for war with Islam to re-examine the long, sordid history of bungled Western intervention in traditionally Muslim countries to understand the escalating cycle of violence we see now.
Will,
Equating violent Christians or Jews with the level of terror and bloodshed Islam is prepared to inflict just does not work. With the exception of a few groups trying to carry out abortion clinic bombings or showing up at soldiers' funerals to protest homosexuuals, there are not that many Christian extremists. The myth of "Christofascists" or armies of evangelicals wishing to impose a theocracy is just that - a myth.
Take it from someone who is both an evangelical and someone who spent time as a reporter thoroughly investigating radical "common law," militia and Christian extremist groups in the United States (and facing death threats for the work).
Equating the small number of fringe radicals in the U.S. that comprise such groups with muscular Islam is simply absurd. You've probably been watching too many films like "Jesus Camp" - Go out and get some fresh air and a fresh dose of reality.
Christianity and Judaism do not command their faithful to wage unending war on unbelievers. They just don't, no matter how strenuously leftists try to make these sorts of connections. Neither the Bible nor the Torah exhort believers to wage open-ended holy war.
However, Islam clearly does command such violence. Islam is a neatly-designed religion of war. It is a religion of complete intolerance to unbelievers (by contrast, Christianity was the ground from which our republic and the freedoms it brings grew). Islam subjugates women (by contrast, Christianity was the ground from which equality of the sexes emerged). Islam maintains slavery (by contrast, the West exorcised slavery from its midst through the efforts of committed Christians a century and a half ago).
What's more, your unfortunately typical rehashing of past history ignores the real history: "Christendom" as it used to be called only reacted to continual hostile Muslim incursions. Islam continually tested Christendom's defenses and took more and more territory, converting believers by the sword along the way, until Muslim warriors reached the gates of Vienna and fought a final battle in 1683.
Of that battle, Polish military leader John Sobieski said, "It is not a city alone that we have to save, but the whole of Christianity, of which the city of Vienna is the bulwark. This war is a holy one."
Though Islam was weakened after this time, more than a century later even John Quincy Adams felt compelled to warn his countrymen:
"In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar [i.e., Muhammad], the Egyptian, [.....] Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST.- TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE.... Between these two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years has already raged. The war is yet flagrant ... While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon earth, and good will towards men."
And still the jihad continues. Islam is not a "religion of peace" as we have been repeatedly told. Please understand, this does not mean we should persecute Muslims in America. I can be clear-eyed and critical about this death-cult religion without calling for Muslims to be rounded up and deported, so please do not distort what I am saying. They have every right to the religious freedoms our founders fought for.
But our hollowed-out secularist civilization stands no chance against muscular Islam that is rousing itself in these first years of the 21st century.
No, I don't think I overstate the case. Islam is the mirror image of Western civilization. While there may be men and women of peace and goodwill living within the confines of Islam, the cultural imperative is bloody jihad, and conversion by the sword. In the West, while there may be extremists, the cultural imperative is peace and prosperity.
If we can rouse ourselves from the secularist slumber of the 20th century, and the postmodern nihilist sleepwalking of our current era, we may yet win the clash of civilizations. Otherwise, plainly, we will lose.
Historical perspectives are always instructive, Red Dirt. My disagreement with your rhetoric (all sarcasm aside, now) is the pithy verbal enhancements you seem to enjoy.
Anyway, if you put Christendom and Islamoworld on a cyclic representation of historical trends, you would (generalizing, of course) find Islam following a very similar track to the one Christendom followed, albeit a few centuries behind.
I do not doubt the danger some of Islam represents. I do doubt the perspective of modern Christians who brush off comparisons with a lame "well, we aren't that way any more". The danger of Christian aggression was real and immediate for several centuries. It matured and moved beyond it. To insist on indicting an entire religion whilst warning of the dangers of some of its members is no more valid than a modern pagan (myself, for example) refusing to trust modern Christendom because of the violent excesses of its past, or even because of contemporary examples of cruelty.
Stand up against aggression from Islamic fanatics. I'm right there with you. Just don't expect us (non-Christians at the least) to swallow whole any sort of blanket condemnation. The Christian conquest of Europe and the ensuing hegemony was worthy of the same condemnation. That is neither a strawman nor a diversion. It's a call to rehumanize the bulk of Muslims your broad sweep blithely demonizes.
"With the exception of a few groups trying to carry out abortion clinic bombings or showing up at soldiers' funerals to protest homosexuuals, there are not that many Christian extremists."
By that narrow definition, no, there are not that many. Let's look at a few nominal Chrstians, CINOs if you prefer. George Bush is a Christian extremist. He makes a big show of his faith, and he used and uses that fascade of faith to win concensus for preemptive war, torture, a perpetual war of disinformation, all of which are antithetical to true Christianity. As is your shallow, blanket condemnation of Islam.
"What's more, your unfortunately typical rehashing of past history ignores the real history: "Christendom" as it used to be called only reacted to continual hostile Muslim incursions."
So that's how you explain the Sykes-Picot Agreement? Mossadegh's overthrow? Iran-contra? Osirak?
This is why we have perpetual war - your blinkered refusal to learn from these events.
Wow, Will, I thought we were having a fairly conducive discussion. But your conflation of my brief recap of Islamic conquest over the past 1,200 years with the short few decades of recent Middle East turmoil makes me wonder.
How did we go from talking about the Muslims about to storm Vienna in 1683 to Iran-contra? I'm not sure I follow you.
Nor am I following how Osirak fits into all of this in your view -- unless it was to remind us all that Saddam Hussein once almost got busy with nukes before the Israelis put a stop to it.
Franklin, I'm afraid I can't stop the pithy verbal enhancements; they're part of the fun of this hobby. I'm in love with my own purple prose, and I don't have an editor. So the misery is all yours :)
"How did we go from talking about the Muslims about to storm Vienna in 1683 to Iran-contra? I'm not sure I follow you."
That's because you suffer from Christian myopia - you either can't or won't see anything done by nominal Christians to ratchet up the tension between the US and other countries.
And it's a pity, because you would appear to be one of the few commentors on this blog who "gets" PO and the implications. I've come to expect the knee-jerk, one-sided condemnation of Islam from Rod Dreher and other CINOs, but it is a tad demoralizing to hear it come from alsmost every quarter of American life.
A lot of us "liberal/progressive" types understand full-well that there are Muslims who are violent and murderous. But we also understand that there are millions of CINOs who have the same blood-lust in their hearts. That blood lust does not manifest itself as a one-for-one exchange of IEDs or explosive vests, but US taxpayer funded cruise missiles, bunker busters and predator drones are every bit as lethal as IEDs.
That's what bewilders me about Rod Dreher and millions of other CINOs who on the surface appear to be curious, intelligent people professing belief in what Jesus Christ taught. Yet when you scratch that surface, you find hateful, revengeful people who willfully ignore everything Christ taught. Like you, they seem intent on wiping out entire populations so that their version of Christianity can be safe from reprisals from other myopic survivors of short-sighted US foreign policy.
The cycle of violence has to stop somewhere. Jesus had something to say on that subject. This is still a blog about religion, spritituality and faith, isn't it?
"The Christian conquest of Europe and the ensuing hegemony was worthy of the same condemnation. That is neither a strawman nor a diversion. It's a call to rehumanize the bulk of Muslims your broad sweep blithely demonizes."
Amen. Thank you, Franklin.
Fair enough, Red Dirt. I would suggest, then, that comments about "conducive discussion" might be labelled unreasonable expectation.
I'm also a bit non-plussed. For someone who has obviously read his history (more than most), you seem to put more emphasis on religion than on (say) economics or politics.
Religion is the most common label used to control mass opinion and justify the further label of enemy. It works equally well to foment hatred against the other, as it does to unify the masses behind a political agenda. Robert Heinlein wrote (though I'm not sure it was original with him) that nations always go to war for practical reasons. Soldiers need high ideals to put their lives on the line, and nationalism is often not enough. Religion is often the easiest road to producing a non-stop supply of cannon fodder. Quod erat demonstrandum.
As a pagan, I believe I have more motivation than most to look at the Abrahamic monotheisms with a jaundiced eye. I maintain that your indictment of Islam is the same demonization practiced on my spiritual forbearers, on Christian missionaries in non-Christian countries, and with intranecine fanaticism in northern Ireland.
"That's what bewilders me about Rod Dreher and millions of other CINOs who on the surface appear to be curious, intelligent people professing belief in what Jesus Christ taught. Yet when you scratch that surface, you find hateful, revengeful people who willfully ignore everything Christ taught. Like you, they seem intent on wiping out entire populations so that their version of Christianity can be safe from reprisals from other myopic survivors of short-sighted US foreign policy."
Will, this is a massive and unfair distortion of my position. When have I advocated "wiping out entire populations"? For a student of rhetoric, I expected a little more intellectual honesty.
But first let's talk about this idea that America is on the verge of becoming a theocracy. It ain't so, and you know it. In fact, Will, as you are probably aware, atheism runs rampant throughout American society. Polls show widespread adherence to Christian belief, but I think you would agree this is not really the case. Let me give you a brief example: Jeff Skilling, the man responsible for wiping out retirement savings of thousands of Enron employees, was a committed atheist and social Darwinian (a fact laid out in some detail in the documentary "The Smartest Guys in the Room"). Yes, "Kenny Boy" was the head of the company, but Skilling was the real engineer of Enron's rise and fall.
I know that many people would like to ascribe things like Enron to some sort of imaginary "Christianist" far right cabal of "Repuglicans" -- but that paranoid way of seeing the world does not hold up to careful, thoughtful scrutiny. In fact, an atheist world view drove that debacle. Enron was the product of our postmodern nihilist age, just as our bloated car-driven culture is (admittedly, I've wondered a little far off track in my original point, but I thought it worth raising).
In reply to this whole "vengefulness" allegation you make, I would first point out that I have no desire to commit genocide. Truly disappointed that you would feel the need to taint your arguments by making such a charge. I simply wish not to live under dhimmitude. And as I feel I already pay enough taxes, the jizya is distasteful to me.
I would simply expand upon an old aphorism from, I believe, from Justice Robert H. Jackson ... "The Constitution is not a suicide pact." Nor, in my personal view, is the New Testament (Jonestown Flavor-aid drinkers aside).
As an addendum, let me just say that I consider my participation in this particular tread at an end. It's not that I don't enjoy having an ongoing discussion with Will and Franklin and others on this topic -- I really do enjoy it. It's just that I feel the lengthy combox thread essentially confirms my original point a-way back yonder earlier this week: That our culture is in the throes of breakdown and collapse, and that we do not have the will or seriousness or understanding required to face a challenge from muscular, murderous Islam. Europe will go first; its already well on its way. America will stand alone for awhile, but hollowed out as our nation is, it will take only one or perhaps two more big hits from the jihadists to tumble us. With peak oil on the way, I expect it all to be quite finished within another decade or two. Cheers to all for an interesting discussion, but I consider it pointless beyond here.
"But first let's talk about this idea that America is on the verge of becoming a theocracy. It ain't so, and you know it. In fact, Will, as you are probably aware, atheism runs rampant throughout American society."
Why the red-herring detour into American Theocracy? Your distaste for Islam blinds you to how the world sees George Bush, arguably the most powerful man on earth, and a self-professed, born-again Christian.
This born again Christian, arguably the most powerful man in the world, manufactured evidence so that he could justify bombing Muslim populations. He knew that innocent life would be lost.
The most powerful man on earth. A Christian. A liar. People notice these things. Sometimes they get mad and seek revenge.
And excuse me if I over-stated your distaste for Islam, but I didn't detect any sympathy or partial respect for Islam in your comments. And I can say with existential certainty that you will not live one day of your life under dhimmitude, so your fears on that are just a little disengenuous.
As for the Enron scandal, I agree that there's nothing uniquely Republican, Christian etc. about the Enron crooks. Greed knows no single party or group. The fact that Ken Lay was a friend of the Bush family, and spent the night in Lincoln's bedroom during a Bush administration is just a coincidence, I suppose. Could happen to anyone. The fact that self-professed born-again Christians consort with such scum as Ken Lay is disappointing for those who have higher standards for Christian conduct. But that's the American way, I guess.
I'll conclude by saying I agree with your Peak Oil prognosis, but regret you have so much energy invested in hating Islam, as this is only a little more positive feedback for a growing cycle of violence that saps resources from more productive endeavors.
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