Idealism, realism and Armenian genocide

Your point is well taken about the strain this is going to cause on Turkey. It's also effectively going to antagonize the Kurds who did a lot of the Ottoman Empire's dirty work. Prudence dictates that we weigh these things carefully. But recognizing the genocide is an important step in "bringing to light" the various 20th century atrocities that start with the Armenian genocide. If we don't acknowledge publicly this atrocity, then when really are we going to get around to the Red Purges of Communism in Russia, Central and Eastern Europe and China? Not to mention genocide that go on today.

Timing is everything (if that's what I understand your underlying point of prudence to rest on); but I think we should realize that we need to say something sooner rather than later just because it irrationally offends an ally.

Henry IV. Part I, 1597:

Hotspur:
And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil
By telling truth: tell truth and shame the devil.
If thou have power to raise him, bring him hither,
And I'll be sworn I have power to shame him hence.
O, while you live, tell truth and shame the devil!

Let's start with this, that just the fact that the matter is even being discussed publicly is good. Maybe, for now, that is enough. I say that as a teacher who makes sure every year that students know about the Armenian massacres (they read David Kherdian's THE ROAD FROM HOME, which was published as a young adult book, but works well for freshmen in college).

This resolution is need to we can send a clear message and make this world a better place.

Genocides should be prevented not commemorated. So we don't have to discuss similar issues again.

What would Jesus do? Would He state the Truth of an injustice done, or would he keep silent out of fear of the Worldly consequences?

That's beautiful, John E. Now, stop for a moment and reflect that we are now stuck in a quagmire war in Iraq in part because people were persuaded that it was our moral duty to go in and liberate the Iraqi people from the monstrous Saddam.

The idea that "geopolitical stability" is an abstract thing is really quite bizarre when you consider that quite a number of people -- including Americans -- could die as a result of this Congressional vote ... which won't bring a single dead Armenian back. I'm certainly not defending the Turks here, but come on, think about what could very easily happen here.

You should reconsider that statement. There is a world of difference between standing up for the right of Ayaan Hirsi Ali to say what she wants to -- there is a clear and present threat to free speech -- and the US Congress making a statement that will accomplish exactly nothing concrete except cause a potentially enormous rupture with one of the few Muslim countries who's actually a reliable ally. Turkey's not going to attack the US if Congress votes yes on this resolution, but they're going to be far less inclined to help us (and we need help). Besides which, what would we do if they denied us access to Incirlik, which would be well within their rights? That would be a very serious blow to our security. All this so we can feel good about rubbing their nose in the Armenian genocide?

In a perfect world, we'd hit the Saudi government every single day with Congressional resolutions deploring their violations of human rights. But you know what? We can't afford to do that. We need the Saudis, and if the Saudi royal family goes down, what comes after would be far worse. We are not required to think happy thoughts about the Saudis to make a prudent calculation that there's more to be lost than to be gained by attacking them rhetorically in the present moment. Nations make these decisions all the time.

Rod, there is a difference between invading and occupying a country without understanding the people, their longstanding ethnic conflicts, their history, and acknowledging the truth of a genocide.

Sadly, I'm now imagining a day when accepting holocaust denial becomes acceptable because of the short term gains it grants us. But those who don't learn from, or even accept the truth of history, are doomed to repeat it.

What will happen now? Turkey will have to (due to public pressure) cut supply routes for our troops in Iraq. We may end up losing troops due to a lack of supplies including mine resistant warfare vehicles that were just ordered by General Petraeus.

President Bush, Ms. Rice and Mr. Gates repeatedly warned the House of Representatives about the repercussions of the passage of the resolution. Moreover 8 ex Secrataries of State including Henry Kissinger wrote letters to Nancy Pelosi and other backers of the resolution.

Today the resolution was accepted.How will the backers of this resolution look in the face of soldier's families, who could lose husbands and wives in Iraq?

What is this whole thing about?

The genocide claims of Armenian Diaspora should be titled "Armenian Propaganda". How this fits into a genocidal claim is the work of money hungry politicians. Armenian lobby, one of the strongest in Washington is simply trying to buy a genocide to savor war-mongering Armenian state.

Imagine our country being invaded by multi national forces during wartime with plans to split this country up, a minority group whose lived in this country takes sides with the enemy hoping to create their own state and begin killing Americans. This is exactly what Armenians did. Turks resented Armenians who lived in their country for hundreds of years and reacted strongly. Majority of deaths occurred during deportation due to hunger and illness. Even today, almost 100 years after WWI, the same fate could occur in most countries, under similar conditions. The number of Armenian deaths are inflated while number of Turks dying are deflated. Russians did provide Armenians their own country after the war but it was under their communistic regime. 50 years later, genocide became an issue to claim their independence from the communists and get world attention.

If Armenian claims are so true, why won't the Armenia and Russia open their archives to the world for examination? What do they have to hide? Why is it the business of the politicians to decide historical issues and not the historians?

Turkey has been our most dependable ally for years. In fact, Turkey fought side by side with US in Korea, saving many US soldiers from slaughter. Ask any Korean veteran about Turkish soldiers brave acts. Turkey has been our friend through cold war, Korean war, Gulf war and all major conflicts. What has Armenia done for our country?? I can't think of one major contribution. In fact, they've been close friends of Communist Russia and continue to harbor Russian bases and military. Why would our politicians even support this country if they were not receiving large sums of contributions? This alone makes it the wrong reason to support this propaganda. Nancy Pelosi should open up her books and come clean about how much she's received from the Armenian diaspora.

This propaganda only jeopardizes our friendship with Turkey and confirm to the people of Turkey that our politics are self centered without respect to the truth, facts and respect to the people of a country we consider an ally. This issue should be left to the historians and is not worth risking our friendship with a major ally. Let historians decide historical issues, not money hungry politicians whose only goal is to get re-elected.

What the Dutch would yield by giving up Hirsi Ali is the right to speak their minds in their own country. And that is intolerable. The moral calculus changes a great deal when it comes to the Hirsi Alis in other countries. Do you think its worth rupturing the US relationship with Saudi Arabia over the way it treats its women? Really? Can you live without oil? Can this nation?

We cannot let moral perfectionism determine our foreign policy. Would you risk rupturing the US-UK relationship over, say, a Congressional rebuke of the British government over its occupation of northern Ireland? Would it be worth that?

I say it is worth it for European governments to be making these calls, because Turkey wishes to become part of the EU, and it's unthinkable that the EU should let in a country that criminalizes discussion of its own government's history. If Turkey can't deal with EU nations saying so, then it doesn't belong in the EU. But what does that have to do with America?

Again, let me say that I think the Turkish government certainly committed genocide, and is disgracefully refusing to own up to it, or even to permit its own citizens to say so. What does it matter if the US Congress goes on record saying so? Does it change anything in the world? I would very much like the US government to get all up in the face of the Egyptian government over the way it treats the Copts. But what would that gain us, or the Copts, given the reality that if the Mubarak regime and its established order goes, what comes after will be far, far worse?

I agre with "Joshua Schwarz." The Armenians genocide, like the Holocaust, is exaggerated propaganda

The backlash in Turkey isn't going to be anywhere as severe as the hyperventilationists in the administration seem to imagine. Turkey already went through this charade with France in 2001 when the French National Assembly passed a resolution affirming the reality of the Armenian Holocaust. The Turks canceled a small defense contract that they probably were going to terminate anyway, a few silly boycotts against French imports were organized, but after a few weeks the tempest died down and everything basically returned to normal. We have even less to fear, as Ankara needs America much more than it ever needs France.

Rod, you are using situational ethics to determine which atrocities should be denounced.

Rod: "Is it shameful, bizarre and outrageous that the Turks today not only won't acknowledge their nation's historical guilt in this atrocity...the Turks ought to be made to answer for what they did to Armenian Christians, and I would love for the disgrace of their actions, and their absurd denial of it, to be shoved in their government's face."

Rod, I don't understand the vehemence of your comments.

The Armenian Genocide occurred in 1915-1917. I doubt that anyone involved in that atrocity is still alive. Who today should bear the guilt for what occurred 90 years ago?

I do not agree with the notion of a "nation's historical guilt". Even though I am a believer in the doctrine of Original Sin (concupiscence in human nature), I have not inherited the guilt of the sins committed by my ancestors or fellow countrymen. The guilt of sin is not a function of genetics. This is one of the major focal points of the Vatican II document Nostra Aetate. The sins committed by people of history are not transmitted to the present as a function of ethnicity, nationality, religion or region.

I am a caucasian American. My last name is obviously German. I have been told that I am guilty of the historical sins of slavery and the Holocaust, solely due to my race, my region and my historical ethnicity. I have traced my genealogy back over two centuries. None of my ancestors owned slaves and my German ancestors left Europe for the New World by 1870, long before the Holocaust. However, even if my ancestors had owned slaves or had been involved in the Holocaust, I do not see how that confers their guilt upon me.

"[T]he Turks ought to be made to answer for what they did to Armenian Christians..." Present day Turks should not be made to answer for "they" did to Armenians. They, the present day Turks, didn't have any role in the Armenian genocide. They have no more responsibility to answer for that history, of which they were not a part, than you have to answer for slavery.

If your objection is to the governmental denial that the Armenian genocide was a historical fact, that is fine. That denial would be the sin of lying. However, lying about the past of one's country or ancestor does not automatically transfer the burden of those past sins to you. Regardless of the reprehensibility of a Holocaust denier, their lies do not make them guilty of the Holocaust. They are guilty of lies, not wholesale slaughter.

It happened nearly 100 years ago! Don't we have better things to worry about than who killed who before we were born?

Imagine our country being invaded by multi national forces during wartime with plans to split this country up, a minority group whose lived in this country takes sides with the enemy hoping to create their own state and begin killing Americans.

Imagine our country as a vast multi-ethnic empire ruled despotically by an ethnic minority, feared by conquered and neighboring peoples for its astonishing brutality and infamous around the world for its backwardness and obscurantism. Imagine that despotic minority entering into a world war for no reason other than a perceived opportunity to reconquer territory it had lost to in recent decades to national independence movements. Then imagine losing the war and responding to that loss with the most viscious form of nationalism, slaughtering millions of people in the empire's rump heartland and turning the despotic minority group into an ethnic majority within an entirely new nation-state.

I completely agree with Rod that House resolutions condemning 90 year old foreign attrocities are inappropriate, counterproductive, and foolish. But we can take a pass on the Turkish propaganda that pretends nothing evil ever happened there.

Passing this resolution wouldn't save a single Armenian from the Turkish lash; they all died 90 years ago.

No, there are still 70,000 Armenians in Turkey and they're still being persecuted same as the Greek Christians and Evangelicals. Recognizing the Armenian holocaust is a first step towards preventing the secular Turkish government's ongoing attempt to entirely obliterate ethnic minorities. They haven't succeeded yet, but they're well on their way.

In short, we need to acknowledge Turkey's persecution of Armenians (and Greeks) because it's still going on and it still needs to be stopped. And also because we shouldn't let the crazy-ass nationalists in charge of Turkey's government speak for the whole country.

Who today should bear the guilt for what occurred 90 years ago?

IT'S STILL HAPPENING!! Not mass slaughter of millions any more, but Christians and other ethnic minorities are still being treated like they don't exist. Until we force Turkey to face up to the fact that it has a multiethnic and pluralistic population, it can continue to oppress and eradicate the Armenians and other minorities who haven't yet managed to flee Westward.

We look the other way because the Turkish government is also oppressing and persecuting the Big Bad Muslims; "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Here's an excerpt from my thoughts on the subject at mansizedtarget.com:

George Bush, champion of all things liberal and democratic in the Middle East, is leading the charge to prevent a Congressional resolution recognizing the Armenian Genocide for what it was. Bush’s “idealism,” it should be clear by now, is a slippery thing. It takes absolutely no courage for him and others to condemn a poor and insignificant country’s misdeeds, such as those of Burma or Sudan. And it is also no great shakes to employ moralistic rhetoric when one’s perceived strategic interests are aligned, as in our ritual condemnations of atrocities in Iraq, Russia, North Korea, and Iran. But Turkey is different; it is a nominal ally that is also seeking to forge closer ties with the West. While it speaks our language on the whole–secular state, freedom of religion, separation of powers, elections etc.–its tone and grammar betray its alien roots. It is still a fiercely nationalist place peppered with radical Islam, and neither tradition has much use for dissent and criticism . . . or Armenians, for that matter. To condemn Turkey over its mistreatment of the Armenians might actually cost us something, and it might cost Turkey something too.

Turkey needs to grow up, recognize its awful and bloody past, and behave like a normal country if it wants to be treated like one. From its election of Islamic fundamentalists to its threatening moves on Iraq’s border, it shows more and more that it is not ready for prime time. On reflection, it would not be such a bad thing if the whole world saw its leaders denying the undeniable: that the Ottoman regime massacred an enormous number of innocent Armenians; this was an official policy; and the Turkish nation has never lifted a finger to recognize this wrong-doing, let alone to rectify it.

I would be sympathetic with complaints against this Congressional Resolution if they were lodged by consistent realists, who adopt an across-the-board policy rejecting interference with other nations’ internal affairs. But the defenders of Turkey’s right to live in a world without criticism are normal, run-of-the-mill western politicians–these, the same people that piously utter “never again” at the Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C. In Turkey’s defense, the Madeline Albrights and Cyrus Vances of the world are standing shoulder to shoulder. I’d like to see where Bronco Bomber is on this, considering his punctilious concern for human rights in Pakistan and at Gitmo. This could be a great show.

Or is the real reason that so many big wigs are skittish about condemning Turkey’s record not an arcane matter of foreign policy, but rather seemingly unrelated matters of domestic policy? After all, if we call what happened to the Armenians a genocide, then surely we must recognize the same about events in Cambodia. And if Cambodia, then why not the Soviet Union, Ukraine, China, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia? But of course, such recognition would ultimately contextualize the Nazi genocide, depriving it of its unique role in our moral imagination. This development would call into question the dominant “exceptionalist” account of western history that classifies Europe’s sins to be worst among equals because of the Holocaust. The Armenian Genocide suggests a gruesome precedent for the Holocaust may indeed exist, and, disturbingly for the anti-Western Left, this precedent comes from a non-Christian nation outside of Europe.

Do you think its worth rupturing the US relationship with Saudi Arabia over the way it treats its women? Really? Can you live without oil? Can this nation?

Do you think it would be worthwhile to start figuring out how to live without oil? I do. But when anyone suggests heading in that direction (e.g., Al Gore) he's immediately shouted down as a lunatic. What's up with that?

Muslims Against Sharia commend House Democrats and Speaker Pelosi for pressing ahead with an Armenian genocide bill. Republican opposition to the bill is pure manifestation of moral relativism.
Muslims Against Sharia condemn Turkish government for refusing to acknowledge Armenian genocide and recalling its US ambassador as a response to the bill.

Source: AFP
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