Vicente Fox came by today

If your colleagues take the same line as you on rousting people out of Dallas' suburbs, how does that make them more "liberal," exactly?

(And that's a separate issue from the fecklessness of the Mexican government, which I grant you is a given.)

If your colleagues take the same line as you on rousting people out of Dallas' suburbs, how does that make them more "liberal," exactly?

I'm not sure how Sharon feels about the suburban stuff, but she describes herself as a liberal Democrat, and is very liberal on most issues. Believe it or not, though, it is possible for a liberal to want the laws in this country enforced. Tod is against the Irving program, but he understands that this is a huge issue here, and saying (as Fox does) that this is about nothing more than racism and xenophobia is unfair, inaccurate and really stupid politics.

Rod:

One thing I'll agree with you on is that the illegal immigration issue has gotten SO big that ...

It's beyond a matter of whether the (immigration) laws of the country will be obeyed. It's now a matter of whether the cure is worse than the disease -- because deporting 22 million people (only about 55% of whom are Latino, BTW) will involve some nasty implications to our civil liberties.

And that's putting it charitably.

because deporting 22 million people (only about 55% of whom are Latino, BTW) will involve some nasty implications to our civil liberties.

That's one of the claims the Do-Nothings always make. All we have to do is seal the border and enforce employer sanctions. A large number of the illegals will then self-deport. At that point we can decide what to do with the vastly smaller number of illegals. I don't know how that affects anyone's civil liberties.

...here are farmers in New York State who are probably going to go bankrupt because the crackdown on undocumented workers has made it impossible for them to hire the labor they need to pick their crop.

Farmers can get all of the documented temporary workers they need. But then they have to pay prevailing wages, health care, etc. In other words, they have to take responsibility for the workers they bring into the country instead of foisting those costs onto everyone else.

""Self-deportation" is a cruel joke, not only for illegal immigrants but most of all for the people who oppose them."

I didn't realize it was all about you, your tender feelings.

"you seriously think people who struggle as much as they do to stay in the U.S. are going to leave if the government puts a bit more pressure on them?"

Self-deportation of great number of illegal Pakis after 9/11 and Mexicans in Nebraska right now proves you wrong. But then again, what is value of facts compare to your goodness and righteousness?

Operation Wetback in 1954 deported approximately 80,000 Mexican nationals in the space of less than a year, INS estimated that an additional 500,000-700,000 had fled to Mexico before the campaign began, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback.

Operation deployed 1000 Border Agents (currently there are 10K-20K Border Agents) with help from local police.

Of course Dwight D. Eisenhower, a real mensch, was the President back then. Jorge Bush, our first Mexican El Presidente, having bravely fought Vietnam war in Texas, now couragesly merging US into Mexico.

There are farmers in New York State who are probably going to go bankrupt because the crackdown on undocumented workers has made it impossible for them to hire the labor they need to pick their crop.

There's no right to maintain your business at the expense of others. If farmers need yet another subsidy in the form of illegal labor (whose costs the taxpayer picks up), then they should go under. Nobody came to the rescue of the autoworkers and textile workers who lost their jobs in over the past few decades. The farmers can either change crops or go find another line of work like everyone else.

As the Time magazine article on illegal immigrants in rural Illinois earlier this year made clear, they will just go even further underground into the cash economy; find willing employers -- and deprive the economy even of the withholding tax they now pay. A lose/lose/lose for everyone.

Wow, one Time magazine article. There are lots more stories of illegals talking about heading back because it's getting harder to find work. If you can't work and you aren't eligible for public services, most are going to leave. Lax enforcement has created an easy benefit. Once the benefit decreases due to tighter enforcement, the majority will leave.

The only sure way to deport 22 million people is to declare martial law and suspend the Bill of Rights to conduct house-to-house searches with the military.

This has to be the most overwrought statement of the year. It has take three decades to create this mess. Taking a long term, steady approach will reverse it. That's what most people propose. If you enforce the border so that only a trickle get through, and deport those you catch through standard law enforcement (traffic stops, employment violations, etc). We deported 1.5 million people in 1997. Did the military come knocking on your door?

Larry Parker:

I have a strong suspicion that you just not capable to understand any argument if you emotionally don't agree with it.

This is my last attempt. No reason talking to a person if person cannot comprehend.

"80,000, or even 1.5 million, does not equal 22 million."
Brilliant observation.

"It would basically be a second civil war to pull that off in a year, or even 5 or 10 years."
Let me see. 22m divided by 10 equals 2.2m/year.
Accordingly to another poster there were 1.5m deports in 1997.
So it is only a bit higher.

Why you didn't even notice 1.5m in 97, but for 2.2m you need a civil war?

From reak life experience from Operation Wetback and Pakis exodus after 9/11, we should expect abou 10 illegals self-deporting, for every one deported by INS.

If there 22m illegals currently and inflow is reduced to 200K/year, we need to deport about 200K/year in order to reduce number of illegals almost to nothing in 10 years (if you have problems with this calculation, any good middle school student should be able to help).

"you apparently are under the illusion there aren't a lot of angry white males who want that "overwrought" scenario."

What's that has to do with pork prices in Chicago?
Lots of angry black males think that CIA invented AIDS to kill blacks in the USA. What are YOU going to do about it?

Your math is off. 80,000, or even 1.5 million, does not equal 22 million. It would basically be a second civil war to pull that off in a year, or even 5 or 10 years.

As mik stated, basic math is escaping your grasp. As I stated earlier, simply reversing the trend will solve the problem in a decade. We were deporting 1.5 million a year without serious effort. I think mik mistakenly typed his scenario so I'll repeat it.

22 million illegals
new enforcement limits new illegals to 200K per year
deportation removes 2 million per year
Result:
4 million illegals left after 10 years

That's assuming no one decides it's not worth the hassle and just leaves on their own. How this results in a civil war and martial law, I don't know.

There are a lot of illegal immigrants in my city, and see and hear no signs they are heading home despite their disappointment and worries over the collapse of the immigration bill.

Is your city a sanctuary city? Does it check immigration status of people arrested?

And neither of you apparently read letters to the editor or listen to much talk radio, since you apparently are under the illusion there aren't a lot of angry white males who want that "overwrought" scenario.

I listen to a lot of talk radio and read quite a few blogs. People are fed up with the government not enforcing immigration laws. They are also fed up with immigrants, legal or illegal, who think we should conform to their culture. For instance, you should speak English in this country, not Spanish. I have never heard anyone calling for martial law or a civil war.

BTW, it's Republicans and Democrats, whites, blacks, and many legal Hispanics who are fed up with this situation. A lot of legal Hispanics have fled the southwest because of the illegal influx. They came here to be Americans, speak English, assimilate in this country, and not to live in Mexico North.