[Erin] The fellowship of men

Amen to pretty much all that, Erin. I've lived it.

I was just thinking on the way to work this morning, as I contemplated all the stuff--just stuff--that has to be done over the upcoming Thanksgiving Day holiday that "leisure" is something that really has not existed for me since I got married thirty years ago. All time not spent working at either the job or the home is stolen from them and feels that way.

I don't know how much different it is for non-home-school fathers, though. Our children have left home but my wife has gone back to holding down a job (college tuition, retirement, etc.) so leisure remains a will-o'-the-wisp, with weekends mostly devoted to home-related duties of one kind or another.

Erin,

The away at work Dad is an artifice of the Industrial Revolution. It is as artificial and unnatural as the work out side the home mom. In my great-grandparents time. Husband were at home, on the farm, with the kids, working side by side, coming back to the home from breaks in the field, meeting his spouse at noon for lunch.

The father was involved in the lives of his children, he knew what they were up to and where they went, he spent hours with them teaching them to work, disciplining their minds.

This practice of stay at homes moms and 16 hour work days is just as abnormal and spiritually depleting as having both parents outside the home.

Spouses become estranged, fathers are as absentee as the babys' daddy who skipped out for another girl.

It is as much a struggle for men who want to be a family man as it is for women. A friend worked for a large coporation. As he moved up the ladder they wanted him to travel more, to stay at the office longer, his wife was a stay at home, but he wanted to be at home too. Because he was not willing to work 10-16 hours days, or travel internationally and nationally, his career was shelved. He left that position to find another, two states away, for less pay.

It not just about getting women out of the work place to impact families in a positive way. Every woman could be a stay at home and we'd still have the societal problems we currently have its about getting the men out too.

-Joanna

"Erin,

The away at work....its about getting the men out too."

At the least level (8 hour day) of office work (as opposed to any vocation with at least some time autonomy) an office worker will spend more waking hours of his entire life with his coworkers than with his spouse; and the majority of the hours of his lifetime he spends with his spouse will be spent asleep.

Want to blame someone or thing for the "demise of the traditional family"?

Gays? "Turning away from God"? "Consumerism"? "Materialism"?

None of these have any impact at all in the face of what Joanna describes so well, the dismemberment of natural human family units into repackageable and remarketable fryer parts.

Culture war? When Family-cons actually decide to take on Biz-cons, even a little bit, that might be a culture war.

Do any fathers really spend time at sports bars after work?

Not where I work and live. The only folks going out together after work are the young singles. The dads and working moms that I know are back home or coaching, leading scout troops, helping with homework or helping with other school/recreational activities.

The part of your post that I didn't understand is that you think the situation your husband is in is related to you not working outside the home and homeschooling. Believe me, when you have a wife in the labor force, you're services in child rearing and home duties are needed. Last year I spent 2/3 of my saturdays on the sidelines at a sporting event.

Since my wife is a teacher, summers are easier on both and she readily agrees. That in spite of the fact that as a Spanish teacher, she runs a regular summer class for my kids and a few of their friends.

Joanna, excellent comment, and food for thought. I suppose this situation really has been fermenting since the Industrial Revolution, hasn't it?

Rebecca, I hear you on the 'two incomes' thing. That's another facet of this problem that lots of couples in our situation deal with--that, and the attitude that it's somehow irresponsible not to outsource your childcare for the cheapest possible cost so you can earn an income that will equal or even surpass your husband's.

SVS, the "sports bar" thing is more about co-workers networking outside of work to benefit their careers. Most of the dads I know are aware that at least some of the time these "extracurriculars" are viewed as quasi-mandatory (if you want to get ahead, that is). Choosing not to participate is fine, of course, so long as you understand the eventual consequences to your career.

True story--I heard from a father who was told that if he wanted to climb up the corporate ladder, he had to make time to go build some Habitat for Humanity houses on the weekends, because that's what the Powers That Be looked for. His own involvement in his church's activities didn't "count," you see, so there was pressure either to drop them in favor of Habitat or to spend even more time away from his family.

Believe me, I'm sure that two working parents are stretched even thinner, which has got to contribute to a load of familial stress I can't even fathom.

Connie,
Regarding the woman and her husband you refer to. For a glimpse at their "sad life" visit her blog, "testosterhome". That is NOT a sad family. See her post from this past Saturday especially.

Interesting post. I'm thinking about it, and might chime in later.

However, this feelgood Crunchy Con definition Every one of us can refuse, at some level, to participate in the system that makes us materially rich but impoverishes us spiritually, morally, and aesthetically is pretty nonsensical, as it defines nothing. At least, I've never met a soul who wouldn't claim it for themselves.

Reason: "at some level" includes 95% of the public right there. And the "spirit/moral/aesthetic" tag is so broad it means nothing or anything. Personally, I've always took a CC as somebody who is generally a conservative, but leans liberal on crunchy issues. At least this way I can put it on a Venn Diagram and get something meaningful.

That's another facet of this problem that lots of couples in our situation deal with--that, and the attitude that it's somehow irresponsible not to outsource your childcare for the cheapest possible cost so you can earn an income that will equal or even surpass your husband's.

This can be tougher, though. I don't agree with the attitude that you should outsource your childcare - I want to stay home with my kids, and I've always thought that's what I wanted. So I might eventually be in your situation - staying at home while my husband works. The difference is, though, I earn four times what my husband does. We've been saving aggressively since we got married in anticipation of me not working (at all or at least a lot less) when we, God willing, start our family. I'm pretty sure we could live on just his income. We live far below our means now and plan to continue doing so. But once you have kids, your expenses do increase, and dropping to one (much lower) income would be a major lifestyle change (no longer living below your means, but right at them) and probably couldn't help but change some of the stresses on our relationship. Again, you live in accordance with your values and I'm blessed to share these values with my husband. But then the other facet is, I like my job, and even family and friends who I always assumed agreed with my desire to stay home have told me they think I'll end up working at least part time. So what do you do in these situations? Better to have a choice than not to have a choice, but I don't anticipate this being easy.

Erin,

Wow, I really cannot relate. I homeschooled for one year and found it extremely isolating (this was only about 3 years ago.) The internet did not cut it; I needed interaction with people I could see and whose kids my kids could play with. And maybe my husband just lucked out to work with a group of people who do not think we are weird. But what I found when homeschooling was that I would be mostly alone with the kids for a week. My husband (the introvert) would be at work (plenty of times still there after 5.) Then, come Saturday, I'd be dying for social interaction, practically demanding that we go out and do something!, when all he wanted to do was lay around and be home for once. It didn't work well.

The men in our parish really don't get upset if I work or don't work; his boss's wife used to homeschool; and those men are his "fellowship." I would say maybe that's just Dallas but it seems like Ft. Worth shouldn't be that different.

Erin, I believe you when you say you weren't trying to be critical or negative, but this is hardly a model of civil discourse:

"That's another facet of this problem that lots of couples in our situation deal with--that, and the attitude that it's somehow irresponsible not to outsource your childcare for the cheapest possible cost so you can earn an income that will equal or even surpass your husband's."

Do you really think that this is the main reason why women work outside the home? Of course many do because they really need the money, but I'm betting that huge numbers do for the same reason I do--they love their jobs, they are good at their jobs, and they believe that they are making valuable contributions to the world through their jobs. And sensible people do not bargain hunt when it comes to childcare. Ours costs way more than our mortgage, but the place is worth every penny we pay, and the staff have become family. (If only childcare like ours weren't so hard to find and afford!)

Now back to dads for a minute. Around where I live, the stay-at-home moms (whether homeschooling or not) are often the sole caretakers of their children from the wee hours of the morning until after bedtime. The dads, who are working long hours to support their families, mostly see their kids on the weekends.

Now look into our house. Our kids have breakfast *and* dinner with *both* their parents every day. Exceptions are extremely rare. At our childcare, the dads do just as much transporting, volunteering, sick child tending, and field trip chaperoning as the moms. Nearly all of those dads take career hits for this, but I haven't yet met one who minds. Yes, my kids see less of their mother than many other kids do, but they see a lot more of their father. Are they losing out somehow? I'm not convinced.

Oh, and I *loved* this sentence: It's hard enough to walk as a person of faith, seeking to return to ancient traditions in worship and to rediscover the roots of our beliefs.

SO true. Particularly when those ancient traditions and deep roots are not those of the dominant religious culture... ;)

Suburbanite, let me echo what Rebecca says, because that is pretty much what I meant. In particular, I encountered that attitude from some women at the place where I worked when I announced that I'd be quitting to stay home with the baby my husband and I were expecting: some of them were self-described feminists, and the attitude was, "You're wasting yourself on a job anyone could do and letting us down in the process." I certainly didn't mean to imply that *any* two income family looks at the stay-at-home mom that way, but there's a segment of society that definitely does, or that 'tsks' when you mention financial struggles because, after all, you *could* have done the smart thing and put your family's income(s) first.

Hmmm, let me offer a bit of a different perspective. I am a working mother. I wasn't out of college for six months before I realized that working is one of the most overrated things there is. I am certainly not in love with my career, and I would love to stay home with our daughter. But we can't afford it. As in, wouldn't be able to pay our mortgage. Not "wouldn't be able to take trips to Europe," which we don't do anyway.

Granted, we live in an expensive area (DC), but the reason we live here is because we both grew up here in wanted to stay near our families. (How "crunchy" is that?) My mother-in-law watches our daughter during the day, for free, so she's not in daycare. If she was in daycare, I would be more inclined to want to move somewhere cheaper so I could stay home. On the other hand, my husband works for the federal government and DC is the best place in the country, by far, for his career, so I’m not sure where else we would move to (unless it was an exburb that would give him a nightmare commute. As in 2-3 hours one way.) My daughter loves her grandparents’ house, and I think it’s great that she can spend so much time with both sets of grandparents, who are in the area. We’ve never had to pay for a baby-sitter.

Several mothers at my company work part-time, and that’s what I’m planning on doing in a couple of years once we can afford it. I don’t think 20 hours a week with grandma is that bad – it’s certainly better than 40+ hours in daycare.

I am 99% sure we will send our kids to public schools. Catholic schools are way too expensive, and the very idea of homeschooling makes me shudder. I’m introverted, forgetful, impatient, and may have mild attention deficit disorder, and would definitely not want to subject my kids to me homeschooling them. Plus I will probably always have to work at least part-time, which would obviously cut significantly into homeschooling time. I have no problem with other people homeschooling. I don’t think it’s “selfish” to take your kids out of public schools if you really believe public schools are bad for your kids. The thing is, I don’t think public schools are that bad, at least not where I live. My husband and I both went to public schools are entire lives and neither of us ever left our Catholic faith. What matters is if you are given a good example by your parents.

Anyway – more on topic: I agree with Erin that it’s a huge problem that men have to work so much just to have their wives stay home. Is a stay-at-home mom and a dad who works 16 hours a day really any better than two parents working 8-hour days? What really needs to change is the workplace. We need more part-time options, more flex-time options, and more work-from-home options, for both men and women. My company is awesome in that it lets people work part-time and from home. I’ve worked from home many times when my mother-in-law couldn’t watch my daughter for some reason. Companies need to realize that their employees have lives and families, and cut out the ridiculous expectations that their employees be on call 24/7, as well as extraneous activities that take away from family time, such as the above habitat for humanity example.

An economy is a paraecological symbiote arising out of and attached to our fundamental human ecology and which mutually shapes and sustains one another. Neither can survive without the other: if the symbiote economy dies, the human ecology dies, or at least collapses back to mere hand to mouth metabolism; if the human ecology dies, or collapses to the point it can no longer generate its economic symbiote, by definition the symbiote dies in turn.

But the relationship between the two can shift, with the symbiotic, paraecological economy assuming the role of host and dominating the relationship such that shaping its symbiote to its ends becomes primary and sustenance of the human ecology only secondary.

With our hypercapitalistic economy now in such a dominant host relationship to our human ecology, those elements most akin to the driving principles of capital--mobility and transmutability--become favored. It's not surprising that our hypercapitalistic economy flowed more readily in the direction of binary, digitized cybernetic infraspace than in the direction of assaying a subsequent material frontier against a steeply expensive gravity well.

Those human elements--your husbands (and/or wives)--most amenable to mobility and transmutability become thereby favored as well, and those less amenable less favored.

There are two ways out, as I see it:

1) Die. The penumbral paraecology will then die off as well.

2) Transform an entire dominant paraecology from its current objectively parachemical, parametabolic root level on up.

Good luck.

My husband thinks that some of the attitudes of the people at work are just funny, but then, he's a geek. They don't see the world the same way others do! ;)

When we just had little children it was harder, but when the oldest two got involved in Boy Scouts my husband met some great dads. Granted, they still tend to think he's nuts -- but in a good way. He and some of the children (and me, finally) have also gotten involved in a local ham radio club which provides another creative outlet and much needed "down time."

On one income, working long hours, it can be hard for dads to find the suppport they need outside the home. Sometimes it can take years to find the right time and/or venue, but be patient and keep your eyes open, it'll happen!

What a fascinating analysis of the question, Brad! Very science-fictional. (That's good on my planet.) It neatly explains how Mr. Sig and I managed over the years. I always thought of us as those tiny therapsid pre-mammals that the paleontology books show, running about beneath the feet of the dinosaurs, just trying to graze and keep out of the way. We would skip along from one niche to another, "one step ahead of the shoe-shine" as Paul Simon sings. We were adaptable because we had to be. And I completely agree with those commenters who point out that one partner at home full time and the other working 12 hours a day is not a good solution either. It's the corporation that I see as the enemy, not feminism.

I can't get Mr. Sig in here to talk about his experience right now, because he's putting away the groceries I just hauled home while I fortify myself with coffee so I can make three or four pies before the rest of the platoon gets here. I'm on pause for a moment while the Nipper gets himself and his plate of bacon out of my way. However, I will say that over the years Mr. Sig has made the lives of countless female subordinates easier by making sure they could get flextime and overlooking their occasional absences and lateness while they cared for sick husbands, children, and parents. May it be accounted to him for a blessing!

I must admit I have a very negative impression of the homeschooling movement, though, no doubt, I am stereotyping what I'm sure is a very complex movement that includes many different kinds of folks.

But when I think of homeschooling, I immediately think of Andrea Yates, and then I think of children being indoctrinated rather than taught (and that would be different from the public school system HOW exactly?)

I don't know where this puts me on M_David's list of reactions since those were all men he was describing.

Ok, so I guess it really depends on whether I feel how much conscious choice and mature adult decision-making went in to the decision to homeschool. I'm sure there are many great homeschooling parents and probably lots of parents with children in public school who have zero interest/participation in their children's educations.

Thanks for being the temporary blog host, Erin. Must admit to just a teensy bit of envy! You've done a great job, I think.

Wow. Maybe it's a regional thing, but I would guess that over the last 5 years of homeschooling I've probably run into at least 100 different families. I can think of exactly one which I had concerns about their kids being indoctrinated, although, thankfully the parents weren't anywhere near being mentally instable ala andrea yates. I can't think of any who weren't actually educating their kids off the top of my head, although perhaps those types don't go to homeschool activities, so perhaps that accounts for me not knowing any of those types.
Truthfully, I cannot even begin to imagine or excuse seeing Andrea Yates as an example of homeschoolers. This would be like seeing that woman in Pennsylvania who was buying guns for her son to use in a school shooting as a typical public school parent!
Thank God around here homeschooling is the province of the fairly normal and I haven't run into people who think homeschoolers are wack jobs intent on indoctrinating their kids or prone to religious delusions which might lead them to murder their kids! I think I'd have a hard time treating someone with such off the wall ideas respectfully if we met face-to-face.