Three degrees of John Zmirak
Wednesday November 28, 2007
Categories: Catholicism
The other day, I met a Catholic who, come to find out, knows my friend John Zmirak. Another one! Experience over the years has taught me that every orthodox Catholic in the United States is within three degrees of separation...
Filed Under: Zmirakia
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Rod Dreher is an editorial columnist for the Dallas Morning News, and author of "Crunchy Cons" (Crown Forum), a nonfiction book about conservatives, most of them religious, whose faith and political convictions sometimes put them at odds with mainstream conservatives. The views expressed in this blog are his own.
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Well, I'm a Catholic who went to Thomas More college in New Hampshire my freshman year, so the odds are good that I know *somebody* who knows John Zmirak--thus proving your theory so far!
Never heard of the guy.
Seriously, "orthodox Catholic" tends to mean, "Catholics or alleged Catholics who agree with me." Given that, you're probably right, Rod, since that's not that many people.
Oh, come now, Susan. "Orthodox Catholic" means, at the very least, a Catholic who is aware that the Church came into being at Pentecost and not approximately forty years ago; that the Catholic Church continues to be the one founded by Christ as the ordinary means of salvation for His followers; that those things which are taught by the Pope and the bishops in communion with him are part of the ordinary magisterium, that body of teachings which is preserved from error by the active working of the Holy Spirit; that the teachings of the Church can be learned by reading the Catechism; that faith and worship are inextricably connected such that a decline in one impacts the other; that it's just as much a problem to overlook the Church's teachings on sexual morality as it is to overlook the Church's teachings on the intrinsic evil of torture; that an ordained male priesthood is not optional; and that Pope Benedict XVI is a really cool pope. Oh, and sola lingua bona est lingua mortua. :)
My fellow orthodox Catholics can add to my list if they'd like, of course.
OK, Erin.
But according to recent discussions here, "orthodox Catholics" does not include people who affirm the Novus Ordo. For example. According to some, "orthodox Catholics" must have Mass in Latin.
If I follow your definition above, however, there are millions of orthodox Catholics in the US. The idea that all of these people are three degrees of separation from John Zmirak (whoever he may be) is odd, unless you think that all Americans are only three degrees of separation from each other, in which case, OK.
New flash: not everyone is in New Hampshire. Or knows where it is even.
Not all Americans could find New Hampshire on the map if their lives depended on it. I am myself one of the non-New Hampshire unwashed multitude. I have the vague idea that it's north of New York City (which I CAN find) but I'm not 100% sure.
The chance that I have any connection whatever with John Zmirak at three degrees or at any finite number of degrees is...small. Certainly it's not a test of "orthodoxy."
LOL...Hey Rod, it looks like you forgot to end your post properly.
/tongue-in-cheek
I was heterodox before heterodox was uncool.
So now I'm just lapsed.
GO Larry, you rock!
Well, I'd quibble with the notion that anyone could be "orthodox Catholic" and not accept as valid the Mass that the Pope says on a daily basis...but hey, Susan, isn't being American all about being able to identify yourself however you like?
So if Larry wants to call himself "orthodox" in his heterodoxy then none of us is qualified to quibble.
As for Mr. Zmirak, surely you realize that he's not limited to New Hampshire in his sphere of influence, right?
My doxie is better than your doxie.
Lighten up already Susan.
Good grief Susan!
"But according to recent discussions here, "orthodox Catholics" does not include people who affirm the Novus Ordo. For example. According to some, "orthodox Catholics" must have Mass in Latin." Susan
Poppycock. Frank is the only person I know of on this board who resembles that remark, and it's not clear if he even considers himself an orthodox R C, as opposed to "Old Catholic."
Zmirak is a fine writer. I strongly recommend his first book, which has hilarious saint stories (Christina the Amazing standing out) and recipes I'd never remotely considered (squirrel being on the menu).
I'm looking forward to obtaining his second one of these days, too.
To all the (Erin-defined) orthodox Catholics out there:
My post was tongue-in-cheek too (insulting myself more than anyone else), but the humor obviously went over everyone's head.
I know at least one very orthodox Catholic who appreciates my sense of humor; but of course, she writes another, non-CC blog here on Bnet ...
The definition of "orthodox Catholic" is easy: a Catholic who can hold up the Catechism of the Catholic Church and say, "I believe this. All of it."
I may have just found the perfect gift for my father (the link to Amazon). Serendipity! Thanks Rod.
"Orthodox" Catholic is a meaningless term. To be a Catholic period is to hold the faith full and entire, dogmatically and morally as handed down to us from our Lord through the Apostles. There are no "orthodox", "liberal", or "conservative" Catholics. There are Catholics and non-Catholics. For example, one often hears that about 70-80 per cent of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence. Wrong! 100 per cent of Catholics believe in the Real Presence. Those who don't are not Catholic period. No Susan, I never said you must have Mass in Latin to be Catholic. A very wise priest once said that "dogmas come before liturgies." If you get spiritual benefit from the novus ordo so be it. That is an issue between you, our Lord, and your spiritual director. PAX
Frank, you are correct insofar as required beliefs are concerned, but what you are not addressing are issues such as the death penalty, Mass music, tithing, etc. People can hold different beliefs about such things and still be Catholic--liberal, conservative or in between, but nevertheless still Catholic.
I wish every Catholic could be like you (assuming you consider yourself FULLY subject to the Pope in matters of faith and morals), but that will never happen. We Catholics are under attack, Frank, and we can't be fighting amongst ourselves. I have learned to be at peace with "liberal" Catholics provided they are also " orthodox":
"The definition of 'orthodox Catholic' is easy: a Catholic who can hold up the Catechism of the Catholic Church and say, 'I believe this. All of it.'" Rod
Thirteenth Rule: To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see is black, if the hierarchical Church so decides it.
- St. Ignatius Loyola, Spiritual Exercises
Of course I am subject to the Pope regarding faith and morals. Of course we can have many opinions on a variety of subjects. As long as our beliefs do not contradict faith or morals we can agree to disagree about many things. What we cannot have is, "I am a liberal Catholic, I support abortion, birth control, and sodomy". Impossible!
I think all of us would agree, for better or worse, that the Jesuits have come a long way from Loyola's 13th Rule.
If that is the definition of Catholicism, though, Erin is right -- I was never a Catholic. I refuse to say black is white if that is not true, even if someone in Rome says otherwise.
"I think all of us would agree, for better or worse, that the Jesuits have come a long way from Loyola's 13th Rule." Larry
I agree; many of them have come a long way-- to apostasy and heresy, and have had to be corrected or booted out by Rome. Father Robert Frederick Drinan, S.J., was a putrid example of the type of alleged (liberal) Catholic Frank is talking about.
May God have mercy him and on all the Drinans who have now seen the light. (Before you try to spin that, Sig, please note that I pray for Drinan and his ilk every night).
"I refuse to say black is white if that is not true, even if someone in Rome says otherwise." Larry
Me, too. There have been a few folks in Rome who took it upon themselves to say things that weren't true. But St. Ignatius was not talking about people like Drinan's admirers. He was talking about the Pope speaking ex cathedra, and if, so speaking, the Pope said black is white (e.g., Christ--body, blood, soul and Divinity--is really, truly present in a piece of validly consecrated bread) then Ignatius believed black is white. Me, too.
Larry, you really shouldn't bother about Catholic things you don't believe in. You might feel a lot better.
Well, Brad wasn't the only provocateur contributing to these pages.
Well, Cleveland, I'm impressed that in your mind I have become this omniscient Spinmeisterin, ever monitoring your communications to see what doilies of dissent I can crochet from the yarn provided! However, to set your mind at ease, let me assure you that I have no problem with your praying for any of us as much as you like. It won't hurt Drinan and it's probably good for you, so go right ahead--you have my blessing. Perhaps I'll add you to my heretical prayer list, and we'll see what happens . . . . : )
Cleveland:
C'mon, you know what the issue is ...
Once you're raised Catholic, you might no longer believe in Catholic doctrine, you might not attend Mass -- heck, you might even attend Protestant services or no services at all.
But the being raised Catholic part **never** leaves you. Sorry, can't help you there.
"... in your mind I have become this omniscient Spinmeister, ever monitoring your communications to see what doilies of dissent I can crochet from the yarn provided!" Sig
That's a very good piece of writing, Sig. If I were of the female persuasion, I might ask if I could use it.
--------------------------------------------
"Cleveland: C'mon, you know what the issue is...." Larry
The issue I had in mind is that you and minnie, minnie other "Progressives" believe that the rot and heresy that infested the once proud Jesuits is that "the Jesuits have come a long way from Loyola's 13th Rule."
--------------------------------------------
Hey, folks, we are so off subject here that I will let you have the last shot at me without reply so we can put this thread out of it's misery.
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