More on the honor killing

There you go, another voice saying that such killings are Un-Islamic. Now if only Muslim leaders could convince their followers that this is the case. It CAN happen in the U.S. If Islamic leaders are willing to work out with courage a unique manifestation of their faith, with its universal precepts standing over and above such pre-Islamic customs as "honor" killings and against such plainly un-Islamic teachings such as those condoning the purposeful targeting of innocent women and children in war.

It will also take the American public waking up and comprehending that Islam cannot be simply be confronted. It must be engaged, understood, and welcomed as far as possible so that its adherants can be successfully integrated into our rather religious society with a secular government. The alternative is Islam marginalized, and Islam marginalized would only be fodder for the Islamic Militant propaganda machine. Our ability to welcome and integrate and co-opt immigrants into the system is what makes us exceptional. American is not an ethnicity. It is an ideal. It is a clearly codified system we call our Constitution, a document whose claims are universal.

If Islamic leaders are willing to work out with courage a unique manifestation of their faith, with its universal precepts standing over and above such pre-Islamic customs as "honor" killings and against such plainly un-Islamic teachings such as those condoning the purposeful targeting of innocent women and children in war.

Lucky Muslims. They have so many people outside their faith ready to tell them what it is THEIR faith really says.

"...is the best introduction I have read about Islam by a Muslim who is passionate about his religion..."

(As I meant to say. Posting and editing in a hurry.)

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/religion/stories/DN-honorkillings_12met.ART.North.Edition1.3783e0f.html

Irving imam denounces honor killings

Irving: Imam says such violence has no place in Islam

12:00 AM CST on Saturday, January 12, 2008

By ERIC AASEN and SAM HODGES / The Dallas Morning News

IRVING – The leader of an Irving mosque denounced honor killings Friday, saying they have no place in Islam.

Imam Zia Sheikh's comments came after speculation that two teenage sisters were victims of such a killing. Sarah and Amina Said were found shot to death in a taxi in Irving on New Year's Day.

The girls' father, Egyptian-born cab driver Yaser Said, is wanted in connection with the deaths. He reportedly was troubled by his daughters' relationships with boys.

An honor killing is generally defined as one in which a man kills a female relative who is believed to have shamed their family.

The deaths of the Said sisters are tragic, the imam said Friday, but religion should not be tied to the slayings.

"Murdering one's own children is not permitted at all in Islam," the imam told hundreds of worshippers during a prayer service at the Islamic Center of Irving. "There is no precedent for it. ... That is not the way we deal with children that we are having difficulty with."

---------------

I wonder...have any Christian clerics in Washington come forward to denounce the "exorcism" killings that happened there recently?

No, Derek, I certainly wouldn't call Manji a moderate by anyone's definition.

Most orthodox Muslims don't even consider her a Muslim, but that's not my problem. What I was saying is, for writing her book, "The Trouble with Islam Today," and speaking out for her "Project Ijtihad" Manji routinely receives vicious hate mail filled with obscenity, is accused of being Jewish and an agent of Israel, etc., etc.

That's funny... You don't look Jewish.

Maybe your real name is Reuben Dreyerovich.

a virulent strain of this [Arab misogynist culture] attitude that's been allowed to fester and worsen nearly a century later.

I'm always amused at this sort of commentary. "Allowed to fester?" Who's allowing what?

Expect to see a lot more misogynist culture, not less, as time passes because when compared head-to-head against the low birth rates of feminism, guess who wins? Every "century later" will "worsen." So get used to it. We are experiencing, as the liberal demographer Phillip Longman explained, the "Return of the Patrarchy."

The only solution that "disallows" misogynist culture is, of course, to build a non-misogynist culture with the traditional gender rolls required to compete head-to-head on the demographic front. Which, of course, liberals are loathe to do, as this means getting the majority of women back in the home watching their kids and ironing shirts (sorry Hillary!). No way that's gonna happen! Death becomes her.

Which is cool, we all have a right to live out our values. Just don't whine about it! I think it is our youth's lot in life to listen to the long, slow whine of older liberals lamenting the deleterious effects of their lifestyles. Folks, ideas have consequences. Suck it up. Learn to deal.

Two Mannings in 15 comments (counting the apparently deleted one of the classy Kim). Brilliant.

Honor-dishonor killings occur in rural Arabic Israel, along with forced and arranged marriages. Key factors here are cultural- a clan system that divides even small villages into several extended families- and socio-economic. One's clan is one's protection; to be ostracized means ruin. And the same formula applies to the tribe itself within the matrix of other local groups. This structure is very stable and tends to preserve belief systems, in contrast to our predominately post-industrial urban society with its hard-won adaptability to changing family structures. New technologies- including paved roads, electricity and the telephone- are opening lines of communication across traditional boundaries, and though these may add temporarily to the virulence of demagoguery, they are also being used by the forces of moderation, whose networking is gradually creating a counterflow. When every little Muslim girl is on-line, and the day is coming, it will be a better world. But where families are isolated, the pressure of western libertarianism on ingrained values will surely sometimes result in tragedies

Rod, thank you for reading my e-mail message to you and for posting so much of it here.

David K, I like what you wrote about the tribes and the stabilizing yet insulating effect of their codes of behavior. In Arab culture, the group matters more than the individual and this, in part, might explain why girls/women can so easily be "offed" when there is some actual, perceived, or rumored affront to family honor.

Ellen R. Sheeley, Author
"Reclaiming Honor in Jordan"

I seem to recall being excoriated for even suggesting that (dis)honor killings came from pre-Islamic Arab tribal customs rather than from Islam per se.

I could say the same thing about the Hajj or a number of other customs and rituals passed on Mohamed, including the direction in which they pray. The problem is that when you make these claims you do so pretending that it has nothing to do with the religion at all.

Yet now experts and harrowing personal testimonies (from an Orthodox, no less!!) are being trotted out to the same effect.

Not to draw too fine of a line, but that was not an honor killing. It was abusive and wrong and some eighty years ago. It also came from an area heavily influenced by Islam, as do the Sikhs and the Yezidis, BTW.

Also, the experts being cited here, while throwing in a few blurs, also admit that the problem is largely an Islamic one when all the numbers are added together.

Not true. When some African-American readers in New York got mad at me for something I'd written that they didn't like, they left numerous voice mail messages on my New York Post phone line calling me a &^$#@ Jew.

Not true. When some African-American readers in New York got mad at me for something I'd written that they didn't like, they left numerous voice mail messages on my New York Post phone line calling me a &^$#@ Jew. Posted by: Rod Dreher | January 14, 2008 7:17

That is interesting, Jillian. Especially since it was a group of Russian immigrants who killed Satendar Singh. Among the recent immigrants from Russia and Eastern Europe is a dangerous mob element devoted to organized crime and trafficking in prostituted women. Yet no one seems to be raising a cry to drive them all back where they came from. I'd hate to think this had anything to do with the color of their skin.

I've been wondering, too, if the murder of Marine Lance Cpl. Maria Lauterbach by a fellow Marine, Cesar Laurean, would ever show up here. It appears that he murdered her to keep her from moving forward with the charges of rape she had brought against him in April. She reported the rape to her superiors, but nevertheless was forced to work in close proximity to Laurean, and according to friends, suffered relentless harassment in spite of several protective orders. She was eight months pregnant with a child she believed to be the result of the rape when she disappeared. A partially burned body was found buried in Laurean's back yard.

"This is consistent with what we were looking for: A pregnant lady who is the victim Maria Lauterbach and her unborn child," [Sheriff Ed Brown of Onslow County, North Carolina] said.

The body was charred, and the fetus was in the victim's abdomen, Brown said, describing the scene.

The fetus was developed enough that the "little hand was about the size of my thumb. The little fingers were rolled up," he said.

"One of the things that will probably stick with me for a long time, and forever, is that little hand, the way those fingers were turned, that had been burned off the arm. That is bizarre. That is tragic. And it's disgusting."

A white American Christian man murders a woman and burns her body and the fetus she was carrying to protect himself from sexual shame. His "honor" demanded it. I'm not sure how this could have happened, because as Rod has told us, there's a "taboo" against violence against women here in OUR culture.

Among the recent immigrants from Russia and Eastern Europe is a dangerous mob element devoted to organized crime and trafficking in prostituted women.

No immigration reformer I know is opposed to restricting undesirable Eastern European immigration. In fact, VDARE has commented on this issue a number of times.

Especially since it was a group of Russian immigrants who killed Satendar Singh.

One who was charged and the other has fled the country. This is not even comparable.

Derek:

In my previous posts on the subject, the problem wasn't that I didn't think Islam had ANYTHING to do with the tragic Dallas case. It was that Rod and others (I'm guessing you too) were saying it had EVERYTHING to do with it.

The real answer is a complex mix of Islam and tribalism (mostly tribalism). Only you don't seem to want to admit it.

The real answer is a complex mix of Islam and tribalism (mostly tribalism). Only you don't seem to want to admit it.

Larry, I've never said that it was all Islam. The problem though is that Islam doesn't really condemn it for the following reason. If a daughter goes out and disgraces the family by let's saying constantly wearing blue jeans and dating non-Muslim men, she is disgracing the family because she is violating Islam. She is dressing inappropriately and dating a non-Muslim which are big no-no's in Islam. Basically she is acting against the tenants of Islam and once you're a Muslim, you're always a Muslim. So, the daughter better get back in line or she's going to suffer the consequences. Such a situation makes it impossible to divide tribal custom from Islamic law because in a sense they are one in the same.

But don't let that get in the way of trashing your own society for the sake of helping the more authentic "other."

But Derek, don't you know that Sig is just fighting the enemies of...I don't know other than men in general.

BTW, AB, not to break up the love fest here, but what happens if your "Islamic leaders" decide they don't want to play ball. What are you going to do? Write them a stern e-mail?

We'll dialogue with them more until they see our truly enlightened ways or they have the sword at our necks. But we must never actually state that we will take action. That would be discriminatory.

Sigaliris:

Maybe I'm too easily placated, but it seems to me that all I, as an individual, can really require of a society is that it brand such abuse as reprehensible, outlaw it, and endeavor to enforce the law within the limits and tolerances of any other governmental undertaking. That such abuse continues probably IS a reflection on the society as a whole, but once a community has undertaken those steps, it has also in large measure satisfied it's "moral burden" on the issue and the responsibility for the crime (for it now IS a crime) falls much more squarely on the individual.

Lynn, I agree that law is an all-important step. But I think that it's not always enough. How the law is enforced makes a big difference, and that is determined by custom and culture. Right now, we have some areas where the law points one way, and culture another, like river and tide trying to flow in opposite directions. I don't think society's "moral burden" is satisfied until one can argue convincingly that men who aggress against women are doing so purely as misguided individuals, without tacit support from cultural elements. I don't think we've reached that point.

harvey, that's an interesting viewpoint and one that I agree with in part. If only it were true that women are "the prime source of learning in a young man's life," then you would be completely right. However, women who try to raise sons to be good men are fighting a battle against a culture that tells their boys a whole other story. One of the biggest elements of that story is that if you want to be a real man, you don't take lessons from a woman. Boys feel called upon to reject their mothers in order to get the approval of other men. In addition, they often see their mothers preyed upon, dominated, and treated as victims. Nobody wants to identify with the victim. Our culture--largely shaped by men--defines people who sacrifice for the good of others, who give away resources, who are patient, kind and long-suffering as LOSERS. That pretty much defines a mother. It takes a wise young man to see through this story.

There's a very strong element of resentment and hostility to leadership by women that works against mothers' influence on their sons. So, to say that women have the power to change all this is not totally accurate. That said, I couldn't agree more that it's high time women stopped devaluing themselves and took hold of the authority that, as Lynn points out, the law now allows us. But, again, there's a powerful, competing story being told to girls that if they value themselves highly and refuse to be dominated, they'll become horrible hairy feminazis and no man will want them. It takes a strong young woman to see through this story.

To bring this back to the original topic, every time a murder like that of Sarah and Amina--or that of Maria Lauterbach--takes place, it reinforces the story that women are in danger of violence by men if they assert control of their own lives. You'd better believe that there are a lot of scared little Muslim girls in Texas now, wondering "Would my father do that to me? Maybe I'd better quit texting boys on my cell phone. I could end up dead." And there are some scared American women thinking "If I report my rape, I could end up dead and burned up in some guy's barbecue pit. Yeah, the law is on my side, but the law can't stop me from being killed."

Rod's column made some good points. I'd like to see them applied to everyone, not just to Muslims.

Sig, I partly agree about the point about some cultures being authentically bad, though I would probably put it slightly differently.
I believe all cultures are worthy of our attention, of the attempt to understand them on their own terms. However, some cultural practices which arose for logical reasons in a particularly culture are now, rightly, considered abhorrent. Slavery for instance. A true multiculturalist must believe that the Old South was a wonderful culture that can not be criticized by the standards of enlightened people today.

I read somewhere recently that multiculturalism started as an academic movement within the field of anthropology. In anthropology, regarding all cultures as equally worthy of respect and trying to understand them on their own terms makes perfect sense. It's when we try to make political decisions on the basis of multiculturalism, that it seems to me, we get into big trouble. That's why I believe in pluralism within the larger context of citizenship, not multiculturalism.

Sig wrote "Cesar Laurean IS an American citizen, since 2003."

yes, but Mexican law still considers him to be a Mexican citizen. And as such if he makes it to Mexico they will not allow his extradition if the death penalty is sought.