First they came for the homeschoolers...

I found this story very moving. We are a homeschooling family and we lived in Germany for several years. As Americans living on a U.S. Air Force base we were excluded from German law. We did come into contact with German families who were risking prison or the loss of custody of their children in order to educate them in the manner which they believed was best. The families we met were devout Christians and it was hard not to see it as religious persecution to some degree. These families were willing to risk so much for what they believed God was calling them to do. It was very humbling to spend time with families who were suffering real persecution for something we take so for granted. God bless them and keep them!

So, they fine and imprison Holocaust deniers, but take away children from their parents by means of a still-enforced and happily-kept Nazi law. I guess that's the government's way of reminding the people that yes, there was a big, bad, evil Nazi government, and yes, there was a Holocaust.

:rolleyes:

"Hitler wanted the Nazi state to have complete control of young minds."

So how does that differ from the old USSR school system or the NEA? It's a serious question.

Thanks for the link to this story, Rod. I hope it gets forwarded around (as I have just done) a lot.

In the 70's my family moved from Oregon to Montana. At that time, local authorities were just as adamant that I had to attend public school. I eventually had to live away from home for a year, outside the state, hiding from the local law.

Finally, my parents got good and sick of it and hired competent legal counsel from bigger city law firm. One week after just two phone calls from the lawyer to the local court, I was on my way home, and nobody was ever hassled by the county authorities again. Yes, it was legal, but the local authorities thought they were a law unto themselves. Today Montana is one of the states with the broadest use of homeschooling. Montana still takes individual freedom seriously in most matters.

I cannot imagine a more fundamental right than to educate your own children, if you wish to do so, which ranks right up there with freedom of speech and worship. I guess that's what happens when a society forgets that freedom is the ultimate expression of civilzation, not state.

Thanks for the non-sequitur, Mr. Watcher.

Jillian, I did find a report on CNN.com/Europe on the riots. Thanks for the heads up. I also found a story that Sebians even marched in London on Saturday(!) The story sure hasn't gotten much coverage this weekend, though. Rod's not the only one missing(or avoiding)the story.

Actually, y'all, the peep was a couple of days ago. I don't think Rod posted much of anything yesterday.

I haven't seen much news at all this weekend, and have been working on a long Kosovo/Serbia-related post since Friday night. I don't see a double standard. I'm not going to defend the Serbs in Belgrade attacking the US Embassy. It was appalling. But it's not hard to understand, given that they've just lost their holy land, and that the United States had a lot to do with it. If Jerusalem were given over to the Palestinians and the Jews expelled, and America had midwifed the transfer, I would find an Israeli mob attacking the US Embassy in Tel Aviv to be appalling too, but I wouldn't be surprised.

If the Serbian mob had attacked and burned the US Embassy because an American newspaper published a cartoon mocking the Serbs' religion, then I would have gotten on my high horse. It's harder to muster much outrage on an otherwise busy weekend when the Serbs really do have something profoundly serious to grieve.

Jillian, don't be so superior. Equating a Christian parent's desire to raise a child according to the faith with a personality disorder (narcissism) is a rhetorical move so dunderheaded, not to mention totalitarian, that only an intellectual is permitted to make it. I agree with Rod that the German law is enforced now for the same reason that the Nazis enforced it: the child is, in the State's eyes, the property of the State. The flourishing homeschooling population here in the Northwest is made up of odd people, both on the right and left, who are united in believing that one cannot trust (a) Caesar, or (b) The Man with the task of educating their children. More power to 'em. They may be quirky, peculiar and noncomformist, but they love liberty, and do not find it to be threatening. Unfortunately, you seem to share neither their love nor their fearlessness. Pity.

All this from a board where we have regular rants against those who oppose authority.

Steve

Jillian, I admit that I as a homeschooler have the notion that I can do a better job than the state at educating my kids. Can you prove that I am wrong? Outstanding examples of homeschooled kids abound, but of course not every homeschooled kid will be outstanding. Nevertheless, even the worst homeschool education provides the opportunity for children to learn at their own, individualized pace. In my family, we have been able to skip second grade math, which is entirely geared to the child who didn't quite get the concepts or memorize addition facts in first grade. Also, homeschooled children can read at their own pace. Children who learn to read quickly can advance to appropriate reading material; children who don't can take the time they need without pressure from others. And there is a lot more reading, at least for my children. My sixth grader reads about a hundred pages a day in various subjects. My second grader reads about forty. What they miss is the classroom discussion -- and that's a trade-off I am willing to make, although we may send them to school later on.
Steve, don't you think it's a question of what is RIGHTFUL authority? Here, it is the authority (and responsibility) of the parents as opposed to the authority of the state... Rod is being entirely consistent.

Scotch meg- I do. I am all for personal responsibility. A responsible person will sometimes disagree with "authority". I am just puzzled as to how people who make the argument "We have done it this way for hundreds of years" decide when to apply that argument and when to reject it. It sometimes seems a bit arbitrary.

Steve

I agree that this is a bad thing to be doing. Personally, while I do think that anyone educating children should have the progress of the children being educated, just to make sure the basics are covered, I think this applies as much to schools (public and private) as to individuals.

On the other hand, the whole 'first they came for the homeschoolers' seems a bit much. *chuckle* I mean, this law has apparently been in place for 70 YEARS. I think if they were going to use it to escalate (after all, the original quote goes on with the, 'And then they came for the...', there seems to be no 'and' with this legislation), it would've happened by now.

As for it being due to religion, you do know that not all people who homeschool are conservative Christians, right? Indeed, it sounds like the reason they kept it was more due to fear of certain forms of political indoctrination rather than religious ones.

If, on the other hand, we could find a case where someone of even a different religion getting away with it, that might make that point.

Indeed, this rather disturbing case ( http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/117053.aspx ) involves a girl taken from school by her parents not for religious reasons, but because she was falling behind, and also had some psychological issues with public schooling, and they still took her away from her parents.

While it keeps getting pitched as being against religious freedom, this dismisses all those homeschoolers who do so for a wide variety of other reasons.

Re: homeschooling and tradition

Here in Texas, homeschooling *is* a tradition. It was never legalized, but rather found to have been always legal and to have been done continuously since the pioneer days; school districts had just gotten it into their heads that they could start treating home-educated kids as truant. The supreme court told them to quit. So, yeah, we've done it this way for hundreds of years. Or a hundred-and-a-half, more or less.

Re: German homeschooling

Our hs support group has two German moms, one a German national and one an American citizen who spends lots of time with her relatives in Germany (bringing her homeschooled son with her). They get asked about these cases a lot. The German national agrees that homeschooling should remain illegal in Germany; she only homeschools here because the schools are so lousy she's afraid her kids would be very far behind when they return to Germany. She uses the German state curriculum, which is sent to her, I gather for free. The German-American mom thinks homeschooling should be legal in Germany, but has no sympathy for those who break the law. Both are very firm about the necessity to abide by the law, whether one thinks it right or wrong.

Both are very firm about the necessity to abide by the law, whether one thinks it right or wrong.

Does that apply to Nazi Germany too?

I've spent a few years of my life in Germany and Austria, (Kindergarten and junior year in college.) There ARE private schools, I've even visited one along the Waldorf model, which is quite an interesting educational system. But they are not widespread. Muslim girls are educated as well - I saw plenty of girls in headscarves outside of schools especially in Vienna. Religion is taught in all German and Austrian schools. If your family is atheist, or of a non-majority faith, you may opt your child out. In large Muslim areas, a Muslim religious teacher is brought in to supplement the curriculum for those families.

Germany balks at homeschooling because its education is standardized from north to south, and from east to west. Everyone starts a foreign language the same year. In Austria, all fifth graders learn to knit socks! I was surprised by that little fact. Everyone must learn certain facts of history. The point of all this is, indeed, to prevent separatisim. Germany does have a certain history which informs their culture. They will not even fly their flag except on official national buildings and on national day because of it.

I wouldn't call it collectivist or statist. It's more communitarian. Germans still live organized around farm villages and neighborhoods. There is less privacy and more common expectations than we are accustomed to. Noise and pollution ordinances are taken quite seriously - most villages maintain complete quiet (no outdoor music, no starting of obnoxious cars, no lawn-mowing, no power tools) until a certain hour in the morning, and all day on Sundays. Recycling is mandated. Children are better-behaved in public - at least while their families are watching. And they are great rule-followers. Don't try to cross the street against the pedestrian light, not even when there is clearly no traffic anywhere! An Austrian or German will wait right there until the light turns regardless, and you'll get a scolding by an elderly woman if you don't comply. Or the police...

Anyway, just trying to explain a little of the worldview there. It's not all that negative, really. I kind of liked the sense of community, not to mention the walkability which is the norm in every German city and village. EVERY village grows its eggs and vegetables and apples right down the road. It's a Crunchy Con dreamland. The very home of Birkenstocks!

But I think there needs to be some compromise with these school children! If you can prove to the state that your child is making satisfactory progress, and has absorbed the cultural and community norms to a reasonable extent, home education should not be a problem. Perhaps they could mandate a certain civics curriculum which would cover basic Western civilization, the law, and a citizen's rights and responsibilities, and leave it at that. Certainly seizing children from loving parents who care adequately for their needs is not the answer.

This came to me in an e-mail from "Leo," who had trouble posting it (probably because of the link):
---
We are an American family living in Munich. When we first learned we were moving here we briefly considered home schooling, but were advised about the law before we moved. Our older daughters attend a private school in the area & our youngest is in a neighborhood German kindergarten. So in response to Nate’s post, there are private as well as public schools here. Some private schools in Germany are Christian schools, so there is no ban on religious education per se. That said, they are few; I don’t know of any in Munich. At least in Bavaria, the public schools hold separate religion classes for both protestant and catholic students (during the school day). I think kids who do not observe those religions actually attend an "ethics" class instead. For the record, I strongly disagree with the German law on home schooling -- just trying to set the record straight. (also to the poster who mentioned church tax: in Germany the church tax is not mandatory - you can opt out.)

In response to Rombald’s post, by law all children, including Muslim girls, must attend school starting in first grade. The Germans are very serious about their laws. But by the end of 4th grade depending on grades each child is put on either a college track or vocational track. In our town only 20% of children get put on the college track and my German neighbors tell me that very very few of those children are the town’s Muslim Turkish immigrants. And by the way, it is all but impossible to change from the vocational track to the college track.

There is a petition before the German Chancelor right now by Netzwerk Bildungsfreiheit. They are a “national alliance of individuals, organizations and parent initiatives who are lobbying to achieve educational freedom in Germany.” http://www.netzwerk-bildungsfreiheit.de/ But I suspect this will not be successful. There is great deal suspicion towards any outward expressions of faith. And underlying this, I think there is fear among Germans of the Muslim community home schooling their children and furthering the very real problems of lack of integration. They see what’s going on in the Netherlands, England, etc.

Finally, to agree with AnotherBeliever, German is a crunchy con paradise in many respects. Farmers markets are weekly or biweekly in every town. There is immense pride in their organic food & drink & livestock. When I buy eggs it’s often at a lady’s barn where she leaves a door open, a bowl of eggs and a jar to pay her. Very cool.

(Remember, that was from "Leo," an American reader in Germany, not from Your Working Boy. I just posted it for the reader.)

Okay, 4:27 anonymous guy. Got any links, or are you just blowing smoke? I'm especially interested in the Orthodox honor killer. I'm Orthodox, and I've never heard of it. Enlighten us.

Scott, I removed the 4:27 post. It was from Kim Margosein, the banned troll. I unpublish all of his stuff.

Perhaps the Good Germans simply failed to see the humor in homeschooling:

THE NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE February 24, 2008
Did You Hear the One About the Christian Comedian?
By MIMI SWARTZ

"Anita Renfroe is married to a Baptist minister, home-schooled her kids and believes in the healing power of Jesus Christ. The punch line: Millions of YouTube viewers think she’s hilarious."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/magazine/24renfroe-t.html

Future German *kinder*-carriers under harassment by Naz-, I mean German officials: "Vee haff vays auf making you laugh...[clicks heels, straightens pointed helmet with a twist]"

To All German Homeschoolers - Come to The United States of America!