Hagee endorses McCain

How come the Left is quick to jump on McCain for accepting "anti-Catholic" Hagee's endorsement/support, but is itself probably more virulently anti-Catholic than anything Hagee has said or believes? After all, Hagee probably prays for and with Catholics that they would come to know Jesus as their Personal Savior (as he understands salvation), whereas the Left wants nothing to do with Hagee's Jesus or Pope Benedict's Jesus or millions of pro-life Catholics' Jesus. The Left doesn't really want to protect Catholics from persons like Hagee; the Left wants to rid the country of Hagee and believing/practicing Catholics, esp. if such Catholics won't promote the Left's views on gays and abortion. The Left's hatred for Catholic teachings on these things far exceeds any hatred Hagee may have for Catholicism.

H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y.

Teapots. Tempests.

allen: And criticism of Hagee isn't just limited to his anti-Catholicism, but also his twisted eschatology that involves the Middle East being consumed in a fiery, bloody Armageddon while he and other "good Christians" onanize themselves in self-satisfied glee.

Allen, that's below the belt. "Onanize themselves"? Honestly. I don't believe in their eschatology, but you are being unfair to them. You act like this is something that makes them happy, or it's something they choose to believe out of pleasure. I've read their material, and whether you agree with it or not, they come by their beliefs honestly.

I think, for example, that the Shia eschatology is lunacy, and dangerous for the world, because they believe it, and will act on those beliefs. But it's wrong to accuse them of self-pleasuring because they hold these beliefs. What if they think it's true?

Anyway, I'm not sure where Hagee comes down on the question, but quite a few Christians who hold to that kind of eschatology believe the faithful will have been raptured to heaven before the End.

And yes, Daniel, it's really interesting that the troublemakers are religious.

And yes, Daniel, it's really interesting that the troublemakers are religious.

Well, the Weathermen weren't religious, minor players though they be.

At any rate, while I wouldn't use a word like "onanize", there is an air of self-satisfaction around the Rapture Crowd. While I still wouldn't put Hagee in the same class as Farrakhan for the reasons detailed in Rod's post and other threads, I don't feel good about politicians schmoozing up to these cats either.

too deeply

Didn't Dante say something in the Divine Comedy about how one of the Joys of Heaven will be watching the torments of the Damned in Hell?Then again, he was a Catholic, so I'm not sure how to work out the theological math on that.

St. Catherine of Sienna said as much. Her point was that in Heaven one would see God's justice so clearly that one would take delight in sinners damnation as an outgrowth of that beautiful plan.

I think the difference is that while Hagee despises Catholicism (I wonder if he met my in-laws at one point) he has not, at least to my knowledge, publicly advocated the extermination of Roman Catholics (which may mean that he never met my in-laws). And among Evangelicals Hagee is considered a gold-plated nutbar who runs around casting out demons, which may account for his dislike of the Catholic Church as it may be seen as a business competitor.

After all, there are only so many demons to go around and most of them are to be found at Obama rallies.

I should say that yes, there is a certain weird pleasure people take in dwelling on apocalypse. I'm sometimes guilty of that. Walker Percy writes about that kind of thing. I think there's something in human nature that cannot bear too much peace and tranquility, and to be more specific, cannot deal with the anxiety of the present moment. So it longs for restorative violence. Perverse, I know, but that's us.

Thought experiment: would it be more depressing to learn that we really are in the Last Days, that the Tribulation and all that is going to happen within the next 30 years? -- or to learn that we're not in the Last Days, and we'll just be muddling through as we always have.

"For one, the people Hagee identifies as enemies are -- gays excepted -- people whose ideas he rejects."

Ahem, gays excepted? Why exactly do you get to set gay people aside in this analysis?

I used to be a Hageeite. Him, Hal Lindsey, the whole crowd of "End Times are coming, send me money" preachers that help keep TBN afloat and make Pat Robertson look downright reasonable by comparison. There is absolutely a sense of satisfaction not only in their certainty of their own salvation, but in the firm belief that their self-identified enemies will one day be sorry. Do they derive pleasure from the thought that the queers and liberals and feminists and Catholics will one day suffer terribly while they themselves recline on clouds? You betcha.

Eric -- is it even a possibility in your mind that even a degraded and loathsome liberal could genuinely find Hagee's anti-Catholic bigotry offensive, on the grounds that it's simple bigotry?

Eric -- is it even a possibility in your mind that even a degraded and loathsome liberal could genuinely find Hagee's anti-Catholic bigotry offensive, on the grounds that it's simple bigotry?

Sure. ;^)

"Allen, that's below the belt. "Onanize themselves"? Honestly. I don't believe in their eschatology, but you are being unfair to them. You act like this is something that makes them happy, or it's something they choose to believe out of pleasure."

I am an Orthodox Christian and clinical psychotherapist and I have to agree with Allen. My reading of Hagee's affect and the emotional tone of his preaching suggests an emotion akin to glee when describing the rapture and its aftermath in the tribulation. "Onanize" is perhaps the most delightful description I have yet heard to describe this aspect of protestant fundamentalism. As a resident of the rural South, I observe firsthand the effect these teachings have within many of the weirder backwaters of protestant fundamentalism. It is as if a combination of noxious narcissism and sinful spiritual pride creates a sense of enormous anticipatory schadenfreude. At times, it seems as if the hold of the book of Revelation on the imagination of the collective fundamentalist psyche exceeds that of the Beatitudes. The question is why?

The whole psychological aspect of this is what really intrigues me. What I suspect is that the reduction of cognitive dissonance is at work here. Perhaps it is the ongoing assault of the Enlightenment and modern rationalism which has led to a crisis of faith and a subsequent desperate embrace of medieval eschatology and world view. The primary impression is of men grasping or clutching at theological and prophetic straws that will soothe underlying doubts that eat away at their souls.

I rarely took Hagee seriously, and didn't pay much attention to those who did, even though I knew there was at least a churchful of such people in San Antonio.

Maybe I'm underestimating the extent of Hagee's eccentricity.

But what exactly has he said against Catholicism that differs from the standard stuff - e.g., The Two Babylons, Lorraine Boettner, James White, Dave Hunt, etc.?

"I don't for a moment think John McCain believes the stuff Hagee believes. I think he's just making nice with the guy. Fault him for being cynical, but don't believe that Hagee's views are going to influence him. John McCain cannot stand the religious right. It's surely eating him up to have to be so nice about Hagee."

--Rod

"There are plenty of staunch evangelical leaders who are pro-Israel, but are not anti-Catholic. John Hagee is not one of them. Indeed, for the past few decades, he has waged an unrelenting war against the Catholic Church. For example, he likes calling it 'The Great Whore,' an 'apostate church,' the 'anti-Christ,' and a 'false cult system.'"

--Catholic League president Bill Donohue

Wasn't it just yesterday that we were hearing so much about the rhetoric of Obama's minister, and how damaging it would be to his election bid?

Not only does this incident point to a glaring double standard for McCain and his defenders, but the only Catholic in the crowd who seems offended by Hagee's vile description of the church is Eric W., who complains bitterly about the left treats Catholics, seemingly unaware that many lefties are Catholics!

Bizarre. And it's only February.

FYI - I'm not Catholic. ;^)

But my father, who is secular Jewish, considers the Catholic Church and the Vatican's refusal to recognize Israel (at the time; I don't know its status now) to be one of the leading causes of anti-Semitism in the world today.

**I should say that yes, there is a certain weird pleasure people take in dwelling on apocalypse. I'm sometimes guilty of that.**

SOMETIMES, Rod?!?!!?

**I think there's something in human nature that cannot bear too much peace and tranquility, and to be more specific, cannot deal with the anxiety of the present moment. So it longs for restorative violence. Perverse, I know, but that's us.**

Get yourself a DSM-IV diagnosis and you'll no longer have that worry.

A whole set of new ones, but not that one.

Well, I'm not quite as sanguine about this type of belief system as you guys appear to be. The history of anti-catholicsm in the U.S. isn't a strictly a doctrinal disagreement, but was always mixed up with suspicion of national groups like Irish, Italians and Latinos. And I'm not sure that racism is been perfectly excised from the argument.

I think the collective shrug that conservatives are making on this is hypocritical. It's an inconvenient political development, and rather then look at it honestly, they're just hoping it goes away.