Kosovo is independent from Serbia
Sunday February 17, 2008
Categories: International
As of today, when Pristina declared independence, on America's watch. I know, I know, the Serbs. I spent much of the 1990s cursing them for what they did to Sarajevo, and I don't take any of it back. Still, pardon...
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About Crunchy Con
Rod Dreher is an editorial columnist for the Dallas Morning News, and author of "Crunchy Cons" (Crown Forum), a nonfiction book about conservatives, most of them religious, whose faith and political convictions sometimes put them at odds with mainstream conservatives. The views expressed in this blog are his own.
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I'll readily admit my geography is not great in that part of the world. But Mary says never fear, Pray.
Isn't Medjugorje somewhere near that region? Take a look at this page and the importance of Fasting and Eucharist. I just did. And I'm recommitting to this for Lent.
http://www.medjugorje.org/ol5step.htm
I don't blame the Serbs for being upset, but they were too busy brooding about the past to see the demographic Muslim time bomb in their midst. This is the future of any country with a strong minority presence and a high fertility rate.
Actually Medjugorje is to the northwest of Kossovo, in Hercegovina, a part of Bosnia. There are also many Muslims there (though they are Slavs rather than Albanians), along with Orthodox and Catholics.
I am of Croatian descent and have been to Croatia twice. The Catholic Croats have no love for the Serbs but I agree that the last thing we need is another Islamic state in Europe. With the Muslim birthrate so much higher than that of Christians, we will see this Muslilm takeover of an historically Christian land repeated over and over.
Thanks, Rod, for bringing the various links on this story to our attention. It's a great antidote to the generally superficial and laudatory coverage of this in the MSM. Everyone should read through the links, including the last one, an article by Joshua Trevino for "The Brussels Journal." Two points by Trevino chilled me to the core:
(1) Trevino compares "the deliberate and systemic destruction of Serbian Orthodox Church parishes, properties, monasteries, and art throughout Kosovo SINCE 1999" to Nazi efforts to erase Jewish culture from Europe.
(2) The perpetrators of this "cleansing" represent an overwhelming (90%) slice of Kosovo society and have the full backing of official sources and foreign sponsorship. As Trevino concludes, the "organized violence against the Serbs now is not the guerrilla campaign of 1995-1999, but an actual state persecution of a minority." In other words, we're talking about a massive "piling-on" by the Albanians against the Serbs.
U.S. support for the Kosovars will be a huge, long term foreign policy disaster. Not only is it a mistake for us to be involved, but we have chosen the wrong side.
After the fall of the collapse of communism, the U.S. and the rest of the world has generally adhered to the principle of preserving territorial integrity, regardless of the ethnic makeup of particular regions. We opposed Serbian efforts to annex the Serb-dominated parts of Bosnia and Croatia. And in the former Soviet Union, we have made it clear that we would never tolerate Russian annexation of large parts of former Soviet Republics where the population is mainly Russian (such as the Crimea).
Now, however, we are supporting Kosovo's breakaway from Serbia simply because the population there is overwhelmingly Albanian. Well, so what?
This is utterly pointless provocation, not only of the Serbs, but more importantly of the Russians. Russia has grown increasingly paranoid about U.S. encirclement. But as they say, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.
So God wills it. The Serbs planned, but God also planned, and the best of planner is God. So the Pope (Benedict) hope that Europe is Christian is only a dream.
When the Musalman lost Spain, they were compensated with predominantly Moslem South East Asia. When they attacked Iraq and Afghanistan, Islam enter peacefully into European Union. Turkey, God willing, will soon be in European Union. Hate may anybody with Islam, it is not a religion of hatred. Like or you don't like it, it is the real religion of love and you prove it (your acceptance of Kosovo into EU) that you love it.
Huh? Didn't the Pope call for the admission of Turkey into the EU when he visited Patriarch Bartholomew? Lay off the hashish.
That said, here's a somewhat sober assessment from Newsweek.
A dagger has been left pointing at the heart of Europe.
Russia was right about Serbia, and right in Afghanistan.
Rod, Kosovo will hardly be an "Islamic state". The articles that you linked to are one-sided and not at all balanced(Serbian author for one article, and photo taken from Kosovo Serb website). Albanian Muslims are generally as secular as they come and generally identify as Europeans before anything else. In fact, if you visit Kosova you will have to look pretty hard to see any signs of Islamic religiosity, particularly among the young, where it is practically non-existent. Those religious sites that were destroyed by Albanians were done because they were seen as objects of Serb domination, not because of their inherently Christian religious value. Similar actions were undertaken against Albanian cultural sites(yes they existed) during Milosevic's ethnic cleansing program for the same reasons. Many Albanian families actually acted as custodians of those Serb sites before the 1998-99 war there. Lets also not forget, as many do, that there are many Christian Albanians as well, including members of the government and army.
I think that Western countries will be making a big mistake by rejecting the Kosovars because of their Muslim religion. If we can't even accept the existence of people who are only nominally Islamic(and are incredibly pro-American and pro-European),what does that say about us? Will we resist "Muslim people" wherever they exist? Mr. Dreher, don't succumb to self-serving fearmongerers who denigrate Albanians as criminals, muslim fanatics and god knows what else. This is a cover and a ploy to get intelligent people to forget the outrageous crimes that the Serbs perpetrated in Kosovo and in other places. As far as the former Yugoslavia is concerned, this is one issue where the "mainstream" view of Serb culpability is more or less correct.
"So God wills it. The Serbs planned, but God also planned, and the best of planner is God."
So anytime the West has aided Kosovo, the West hasn't built up good will with the Muslim world, Allah has. Of course it's a double edged sword. Any setback that the West delivers to Dar al-Islam is also Allah's will. Any setback. We can do anything we want and it will be Allah's will.
Kosovo is Serbian of course. Half of the world will not acknowledge it as independant state. hope war doesn't happen.
Alhaj put it better than anything I could say: "So the Pope (Benedict) hope that Europe is Christian is only a dream.
When the Musalman lost Spain, they were compensated with predominantly Moslem South East Asia. When they attacked Iraq and Afghanistan, Islam enter peacefully into European Union. "
Right, what were people saying about all these perfectly assimilated Muslims in the USA? Anyone heard about biding one's time?
Having said that, it's just possible that Agron is right about Albania-Kosova-Bosnia being basically secular and highly un-Islamic. I really don't know enough about the area to be sure. I hope he's right, but I'm nervous about gambling Europe's future on that hope.
Maybe everything will work out reasonably okay...
Didn't the Pope call for the admission of Turkey into the EU when he visited Patriarch Bartholomew?
Sadly, inexplicably, disastrously -- yes.
So, now Serbia "invades" Kosovo to recover ancient Serbian homeland. NATO defeats the invasion and invades Serbia to punish it. Russia remembers its pan-slavic ideology and moves troops into Serbia to expel NATO.
...
Welcome back to August 1914
"Didn't the Pope call for the admission of Turkey into the EU when he visited Patriarch Bartholomew?"
There is something masochistic about the Christian response to Islam. From 650 to 1400, Christendom showed continuous defeat at the hands of Islam, with the sole forward action being the Crusades, yet the Pope apologised for them.
If the Pope wanted to apologise for something, he could pick the Baltic Crusades (in Finland, Pomerania, Lithuania, etc.), when the pagans were forced to convert. He could apologise about Spanish destruction of the Inca empire and enslavement of other Native Americans. But no, he apologised about one thing that mediaeval Christendom got right.
It's like this now. You look on Evangelical websites, and they're full of stuff about "martyrdoms" by Hindus in India. There have been three or four pastors murdered, often by thieves, etc. If they wanted to find about real martyrdom, they could try proselytising next door, in Pakistan, of course.
"I know, I know. The Serbs." I'm not clear how that is different from some anti-semitic cretin saying "I know, I know. The Jews." I am astonished that nobody challenges this. The Serbian government committed crimes, aided by too many of the Serbian people. Stipulated. I am still reluctant to join a blame-an-entire-people parade. And it's such a comfort to know that the monasteries and churches were destroyed because they are symbols. "...seen as objects of Serb domination" was the exact phrase. So that would mean that the nuns and monks who were driven from their homes or killed were also seen as objects of Serb domination? Ethnic cleansing isn't pretty, even when perpetrated by the politically approved ethnic flavor of the week. Serbia has more of a historical and cultural claim to Kosovo than the United States has to Texas; something to bear in mind now that the precedent has been established.
So this is what comes from intervening in the territorial disputes of Europe.
I'm still trying to figure out what American national interest was being defended by our Balkan interventions.
Scott, what I meant by that was shorthand for "Yes, I know the Serbs behaved evilly." The dominant media narrative in the US, it seems to me, is that the Serbs were evil and deserve what they got. I'm trying to acknowledge that the Serbs did in fact behave with great malice and wickedness, but this is still a bad outcome.
Does it actually matter to any of you that Kosovo is 90% ethnic Albanian? Does the fact that the majority of people living in the place want to be independent, and would so vote? I thought we were all about that spreading democracy thing.
Kosovo is Serbian of course. Half of the world will not acknowledge it as independent state. Hope war doesn't happen.
No, prior to invasion and dispossession by the Serbs it was inhabited by the native ethnic group now mislabelled "Albanians"-- they are probably the same ethnic people, or one of them, that the Romans called 'Illyrians'. It's shown by the archaeological record.
There is something masochistic about the Christian response to Islam. From 650 to 1400, Christendom showed continuous defeat at the hands of Islam, with the sole forward action being the Crusades, yet the Pope apologised for them.
The first crusade ended in the massacre of Jerusalem. A later one in the near-fatal looting and demolition of Byzantium. Some people can't quite overlook those. The means desecrate the ends.
I am still reluctant to join a blame-an-entire-people parade. And it's such a comfort to know that the monasteries and churches were destroyed because they are symbols. "...seen as objects of Serb domination" was the exact phrase. So that would mean that the nuns and monks who were driven from their homes or killed were also seen as objects of Serb domination?
Well, they didn't much protest when their friends, relatives, and state desecrated the land with ethnoreligious murders. From afar it isn't within my judgment or right to say they forfeit their moral standing, but it is distinctly possible.
Ethnic cleansing isn't pretty, even when perpetrated by the politically approved ethnic flavor of the week. Serbia has more of a historical and cultural claim to Kosovo than the United States has to Texas; something to bear in mind now that the precedent has been established.
In European terms, the Serb claim is relatively weak. But since all sides will eventually merge into the EU, the significance of statehood is overstated.
Likewise, when Texas is 80%+ Latino or nonwhite, it will simply be part of a social continuum. It's doubtful that the US and Mexico will be very distinct nation-states at that point anyway.
Terry Mattingly has a good piece over at GetRelgion, which features this quotation from A. M. Rosenthal:
"Serbs are as likely to give up Kosovo willingly because the Albanians want it as Israelis are to give up Jerusalem because the Arabs want it."
IMHO, that sums it up.
This is nothing to celebrate at all.
Whether Kosovo should ever be recognized as an independent country is basically a legal and political matter. If they have the will and the population, then it might even be — to use that idiotic archbishop’s phrase — “inevitable”.
I mean if the Serbs have lost their territory due to Communism, and low-birth-rate, and atheism, and neglect, and abuse, etc. etc., then that’s their problem.
But what is there to celebrate?
And how “independent” is it anyway? Carved out of a sovereign state by NATO and al-Qaeda. A protectorate of the UN, NATO and the EU. And an economy completely dependent upon handouts, sex-slavery and drug trafficking.
And now the official borders of Islam have been pushed northward again after 90 years of freedom from Islam. — That’s our problem.
* * * * *
The best Kosovo site is here:
http://www.kosovo.net
Orthodox Monks of Kosovo Chanting:
http://www.kosovo.net/edecani7.html
And some of my Kosovo-related posts:
http://brianakira.wordpress.com/2008/02/18/kosovo-ossetia-abkhazia/
http://brianakira.wordpress.com/2008/02/18/serb-remains-in-kosovo-metohija/
http://brianakira.wordpress.com/2008/02/18/fjordman-on-kosovo/
I'm trying to acknowledge that the Serbs did in fact behave with great malice and wickedness, but this is still a bad outcome.
Let me understand.
Serbs were defending themselves against Muslim aggression. Many atrocities were committed on both sides.
In most cases when there is a civil war, world pays little attention, much less demands territorial concessions.
Not in this case.
Serbs have the misfortune to be white Christrians, of course elites of EU and USA will be against them and for any minority group, no matter how evil.
At least EU had smarts to stay out, but Clinton needed a small war to take attention away from his fun with Monica.
Serbia, our loyal ally in all wars in 20 century, people that has loved America, country that saved hundreds of shut-down US pilots during WWII, was bombed mercilesly. While Muslim drug trafficers and thugs on Saudi Arabian payroll got themselves a nice little state.
And now Muslim lover in EU and USA decided to cut out heart of Serbia and establish yet another Muslim state.
I guess 50+ Islamic states in the world is not enough, Jorge "Islam Expert" Bush needs to add another one.
This day will live in infamy.
I count days till this cretin of a President is in office.
How much harm to America he will do until he is back in Texas on Saudi and Mexican payroll?
The degree to which Kosova is Islamic is something I'm not sure about. Much depends on that, but the outcome is not particularly positive either way:
1. If Kosova is Islamic, and the whole secular thing was taqiyya, this means that we've got still more Muslims in Europe, probably soon to be included in the EU.
2. If Kosova is basically secular, the Westphalian principle of national sovereignty has been violated for no particularly obvious benefit.
"Muslim aggression" ended with the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, to be immediately replaced by "Christian aggression" by the Serbian Orthodox vs. the Croatian Roman Catholics, by both against their non-Christian citizens (Rom and Jews as well as Muslims), with the ironic improvements under the regime of Tito that became a golden age by default after his death, with the immediate return of the once and future "Christian aggression".
Milosevic was not an aberration. He was the norm.
Rhetorical: how many years of generations does it take for "revenge for what you did to us" to become "you have no right to take revenge for what I do to you".
Manning's Corollary denial: the scare quotes are there for a reason.
Didn't the Pope call for the admission of Turkey into the EU when he visited Patriarch Bartholomew?
The Pope isn't exactly pressing for Turkey's admission into the EU. But Benedict publicly reversed his prior (as Cardinal Ratzinger) stated opposition to Turkey's EU admission for one reason only: It is an existential issue for the Patriarch of Constantinople.
Unless Turkey joins the EU, and is therefore required to abide by EU policies regarding religious freedom and ethnic minorities, the Orthodox Patriarchate of Constantinople is headed to almost certain extinction within a generation. A Pope who places Catholic rapprochement with the Orthodox among his very highest priorities can't stand on the other side of that issue.
rombald is right: Whether many Kosovars are "Islamist" is immaterial. This is a straightforward violation of Serbia's territorial integrity.
If we expect the Serbs to acquiesce in Kosovo's secession just because the province's current population is heavily Albanian, then why were the Serbs not entitled to annex the ethnically Serbian regions of Croatia (Vojvodinia) and Bosnia-Hercegovina?
Geopolitically, U.S./European support for this secession amounts to poking the Russians (and to a lesser extent the Chinese) in the eye with a stick -- right when we're looking for their cooperation on Iran, nuclear proliferation, energy issues, etc. Pure stupidity. The triumph of rid-the-world-of-evil messianism over our real national interests.
Simon,
If we expect the Serbs to acquiesce in Kosovo's secession just because the province's current population is heavily Albanian,
Appoximately 90% ethnic Albanian...
...then why were the Serbs not entitled to annex the ethnically Serbian regions of Croatia (Vojvodinia) and Bosnia-Hercegovina?
It wasn't for lack of trying, including violence against non-Serbs in each of those areas backed, supplied and financed by Belgrade.
No Balkan group, not one of them, has learned to live in a pluralistic society. Tito's "peace" was enforced by arms, imprisonment and eventually the proof of general prosperity. Once the fox died, all the chickens started pecking out their territories.
You need to move along with facts: Americas reason for bombing was rumors of genocide/ethni cleansing, afterwards, dozens of ind. forensics and legal teams concluded that in fact nothing of the sort happened.But, according to NYT reports from 81-88, Mavrine Howe and david Binder show ethnic Albanians cleansing KosovO of its Serb and Roma population....all in accordance with their Islamist goals for an Islamic state.If genocide/ethnci cleansing were the reasons for bombing Serbia, we'd have bombed Zagreb for Operation Storm and Prstina for 40 years of ethnic cleansing
dozens of ind. forensics and legal teams concluded that in fact nothing of the sort happened.
That's a lie. Serb paramilitaries even used the one steel mill in Kosovo to burn 1000-2000 Albanians' bodies completely using burning coke, which was the method used in the Auschwitz crematoria. It's in the New Yorker, 1999 or 2000.
And what does the fact that Kosovo is major Muslim have to do with anything, ever? 99.999% of all Muslims are peaceful. Such inuendo such as what you wrote is disgusting and offensive.
So let me get this straight: Your disdain, distrust, and fear of a country declaring independence is based entirely on the religious affiliation of the people involved, not on the declaration itself, which after all is how our own country started.
Yet if anyone displayed that kind of blanket condemntation of you for your own religious beliefs, you'd be screaming oppresion and intolerance. If anyone even expressed the same kind of distrust, fear, and suspicion entirely based on your religion, you'd be doing the same. This is certai.
You people "of faith" never cease to amaze me. Truly.
If Jesus returned and saw what has been done in his name he'd never stop throwing up.
I have a complaint. After reading your "rules of conduct" I'd like to point out that someone is violating them.
I'm not going to be impolite, or aggressive, or engage in any of the other forbidden modes of behavior in your rules, so I hope you won't delete this post just out of gratuitous censorship.
In your list of things that aren't allowed here, I find that posts won't be allowed by anyone who:
"uses Beliefnet community functions primarily to harass or censure any person, group, or entity;"
This seems fairly clear, and yet there is a passage here in direct violation of this. That passage is this one:
"Still, pardon me for not popping Champagne corks over the creation of a new Islamic state in Europe.
More here. And here. This is a day that we will all come to regret, I fear. "
The poster clearly means to both censure and condemn an entire group, in a fact rather large one, simply for their religious beliefs. Harrasment is also likely, seeing as how I imagine this site is filled with similar comments about Muslims. If somoene repeatedly condemns an entire group, I would think this qualifies as harrasement, wouldn't you?
Since the offending poster is yourself, I can see that this might be a bit of a dilemma here.
Your move.
Sincerely.
The only reason this Islamic state exists *at all* is that it survived centuries of Eurochristian ethnic cleansing. Since the Christians drove the Ottomans out, Albanians in Kosovo have been attacked by Serbs, Croats, and Tito. Due to their Islamic faith. I'm surprised, honestly, that Hitler never tried to exterminate *them* the way he did another unpopular group throughout Europe: the gypsies.
Actually, you may be surprised to know that Hitler had Kosovan Muslim troops fighting for him. He was also particularly fond of them and issued specific instructions to the German Army and SS in an attempt to prevent conflicts between the christian Germans and the Muslim Kosovans.
I pray for the day when I will see the same thing happening to all countries that recognized independent Kosovo and Metohia.
I beg to see every miser happening especially to the USA.
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