Religion in America 2008

Hi Rod,

Re: the 'conversion' rates you find so remarkable...

"You could say that this is the consumerist mentality evidencing itself, but many of these converts known to me did so not for lifestyle reasons, but for serious theological reasons."

As you can tell from my moniker, I definitely do NOT worship in the faith in which I was raised. You are correct, it is not for "lifestyle" reasons, though some who do not know me well would disagree since I am a gay man. The "theological" reasoning I was given while in the Pentecostal faith did not stand up to examining. Their (ludicrous, imnsho) belief in the "sinfulness" of dancing, movies, theatre and divorce are simply the icing on the cake. Their rejection of God's gay and lesbian children as not being worthy of a personal relationship with God seems to me to be antithetical to Christ's message of love and forgiveness. Their stance on communion I reject utterly. (Who would Christ reject?) Their selectively literal takes on (only some passages in) the Bible also could not withstand scrutiny.

The list of reasons is extensive.

As for your, "Which means that we Orthodox have a lot of evangelizing to do.", may I lend you a cheer from the gay community: "Ten per cent is not enough. Recruit! Recruit! Recruit!" (LOL, for those who miss the irony.)

Face it, there's not a lot we humans can do to make someone other than what they are. Good luck with your campaign, but be very careful in your "evangelizing". Some will see it as not much more than unwelcomed Bible thumping.

Donna,

You're right. It's not surprising that in the most narcissistic culture the planet has ever seen, people are creating a God that revolves around their agenda and feelings. Sort of like those people who say they are spiritual, but not religious. Where do people like that get their ideas about spirituality? Why from their only source of wisdom and understanding: themselves.

Rod,
As a seeker who finds herself drifting towards the Orthodox church, I think the best thing you guys could do is just let people know that you're out there and open to inquirers. It wasn't until I came across your writings and those of Frederica Mathewes-Green that I knew that you *could* just walk into an Orthodox churh. (It seems silly now, but then again, the Greek Orthodox church in town doesn't even post their service hours online. Or anywhere that I could find, honestly.)

recovering ex - I agree, those with sexual temptation are no more to be rejected than gluttons or gossips. We all work out our salvation with fear and trembling... and there are guidelines for that, for our own good.

Rod - I left the RC church when it was time for confirmation. Spent 25 years in numerous faithful Prot and liturgical denoms as an adult. The instability was difficult. Have been Orthodox for a few years and at this point hope to stay there, though I spend time in RC and Prot. circles even still.

I consider myself more spiritual than religious because I don't feel I need to attend a church to live the Godly life I envision. That doesn't mean I live in a bubble. I have several very religous friends and we talk about our faith a lot. I read and have read numerous books on Christian history and practice.

So, I am definitely not my only "source of wisdom and understanding."

Approximately one-third of the survey respondents who were raised Catholic no longer describe themselves as Catholic;

It would be interesting to know the "why" behind this stat. Despite what you read here, my guess is most of those people didn't leave the Catholic church because it wasn't Orthodox enough or disciplined enough. Most likely left out of anger and frustration with the intractability and oppression that the church often fosters.

I concur, Rod. It would be very interesting.

Daniel,

"Approximately one-third of the survey respondents who were raised Catholic no longer describe themselves as Catholic;

It would be interesting to know the "why" behind this stat. Despite what you read here, my guess is most of those people didn't leave the Catholic church because it wasn't Orthodox enough or disciplined enough. Most likely left out of anger and frustration with the intractability and oppression that the church often fosters."

I have read that some 82% of Catholics disagree with their faith's teachings on birth control and a similar number disagree with their teachings on homosexuality. Not to mention the sex-abuse scandals, the lack of ordination of women, but do you really think the "why" they've left in droves isn't apparent?

Not to be a pessimist, but to me these numbers presage the demographic implosion currently underway in Europe. We're just a couple of decades or so behind in our spiritual apathy.

I've just had a talk about religion with my father, to be totally honest I don't really believe in one at this point in time. I was raised up as a Romen Cathlic, do I believe in it? well no, but I go to church every sunday and usher. I went to a private school for eight years. I have many questions, but the one thing is certain, I DON'T NEED A RELIGION TO HAVE A PURPOSE IN LIVING. When I talked with my dad he stated that he had no reason to live without religion. That made me mad cause the fact that he is my father and two i think he has much much much to live for. I look a life as I'm here I'm going to make the best of it. I don't need a religion to make me help my neighbor or not kill someone. I do the best I can I'm looking at Industrial Engineering Tech as a career, and I like to make a difference in this society because I think its very screwed up. My friend just got caught with pot, WHY?? I've done it for about two years and stopped about three months ago, Why? Beacause of my very very best freind. She sat me down and told me how screwed up I was. Ever since then I haven't done it. I love her for doning that, because I was messed up. I look forward to the furture good or bad. Believe it or not I'm only 16 years of age, but you no what I've gone through alot for my age. I lost my mom when I was about three, people ask me how do you live and I tell them, I live for her each and every day!! I live for my family, friends, and my mom. I don't need a stupid religion to tell me to do good. I only wish I could have everyone see it that way.

recovering ex-p, if you love, I bet we could agree on many things. And forgive me for not taking the time to respond earlier in a more gracious manner. Are you willing to listen or am I persona non grata?

I spent a couple years recently studying things gay due to my husband's coming out. I sought pointedly to determine whether what I had been taught was the only way of understanding. Read lots. Like you, I wished to find differently. Personally I couldn't, even wanting to.

I did not infer your relationship was to an animal or plant; I assume it is to one whom you love, as was the case in my marriage. Yet just because I would like to be able to feel okay about my ex's new partner doesn't change centuries of teaching, y'know? That saddened me then, for my ex's sake, and it saddens me now. I know God is love, but it doesn't mean Church teaching gets changed just because of what I think or want. I am only too aware of the limitations that places on those who are gay, and I wish it were otherwise. It is taught we are to control our passions, whatever they may be; uncontrolled, they tempt our thinking away from truth and to do things contrary to God's best. And lest you read this as holier than thou, trust me it's not - it's personal for me, too.

What I find interesting is that as a largely 3rd world immigrant population is going to stop having some many children, the Mormons are not.

And why do Mormons have some many kids - why because it provides massive relevant support for large families, not just lip service.

danielle,

"I did not infer your relationship was to an animal or plant"

No, You didn't - others have, repeatedly, here on Rod's blog. But you DID lump gay people (in your words, "those with sexual temptation") in with "gluttons or gossips" which, as I said and still maintain is extremely un-charitable and - to me personally, a gross insult.

"I assume it is to one whom you love, as was the case in my marriage."

Of course it is - it's why I married him. Now, consider how you would feel if I were to compare your marriage to gluttony or gossiping and I think you'd realize just how un-charitable your comments are.

"Yet just because I would like to be able to feel okay about my ex's new partner doesn't change centuries of teaching, y'know?"

The "centuries of teaching" were based on what many scholars today admit is Scriptural mis-interpretation (yet another reason to leave a religion). How you feel about your ex's new partner seems quite irrelevant.

"I know God is love, but it doesn't mean Church teaching gets changed just because of what I think or want."

That isn't the reason Church teaching gets changed. More, better and deeper scholarship, context, re-examination of original texts etc. is what changes Church teachings. That and the embracing of Christ's love and forgiveness for all humankind.

"I am only too aware of the limitations that places on those who are gay, and I wish it were otherwise."

Wishing will not make it so, but ceasing and desisting with the "gluttons and gossips" comparisons would surely help.

"It is taught we are to control our passions, whatever they may be; uncontrolled, they tempt our thinking away from truth and to do things contrary to God's best."

You seem to think the love expressed within my marriage is out-of-conrol passion that tempts me away from truth. It is not. And it is offensive of you to say so.

"And lest you read this as holier than thou, trust me it's not"

It just comes across that way.

Larry, great quote. Citation?

recovering ex-p, if I slept extra-maritally, you would be assuredly correct in lumping that with gluttony and gossiping. I might or might not take offense. But what's at issue is our differing conclusions re whether the Church sees any intimate (sexual) behavior as acceptable for anyone except a male-female coupling within the confines of marriage. I thought it might shed light to share that this is not a knee-jerk opinion or reaction for me; guess not. Differences of opinion don't bother me, whether strongly stated or not but it seems best if I not post further on this. Honestly, no animosity was intended; I apologize for causing you offense.

And why do Mormons have some many kids - why because it provides massive relevant support for large families, not just lip service.

On the other hand, the tide of costs of education and average level of education and the pool of educated people, and money needed after college to maintain social status (e.g. for mortgages, paying off debt) is rising rapidly. There's a choke point where, if you are middle class and have a lot of children, the majority will simply not be able to get or hold on to middle class jobs and status. And status fall of the family as a whole results, which people both inside and outside it draw their lessons from.

That number where class identity can be sustained is falling. Where I lived in the Eighties- a relatively highly educated region-, the maximum was held to be around four or five children. It was higher in the Seventies. It's lower now. There's no reason for it to increase in sight, the twin pillars on which it was built- a low skilled labor based economy to net subsidize the middle class, and relatively low middle class education levels and competition- are breaking down.

No religious group whose members are net downwardly "mobile" in peacetime society attracts new members or long keeps the ones it has. The dysfunction and angers and bizarre theologies that result will do their work. It's not just a story of individual churches, btw, it's the story of religions on whole continents.