Does this sound like a Catholic hater?

Or, to be a bit more cynical, it's about Deal Hudson trying to make himself relevant again (i.e. the man who "delivered" the catholic vote to Bush...). Hagee's got a lot of 17th century, fire-breathing, Church is the whore of babylon rhetoric about him. I don't know about you, but the last time someone called my mother a whore, a 500 word op-ed on ecclesiology and church history didn't exactly make me feel any better...

No, it doesn't sound like a Catholic hater, but then again that's not what really bothers me about Hagee. If his theological convictions entail that he think I'm hell-bound, that's his prerogative; he has as much right to think - and say - that as the Latin Mass Catholics do to pray for the Jews. But calling the indiscriminate murder of hundreds of civilians "a miracle of God" ... now that's a different matter.

This brings home what many do not understand about the evangelical (big time generalization) view of the Roman Catholic church. There is a big difference between the evangelical view of the Roman Catholic Church, and its view of those who are a part of it. For that matter, the same can be said about some denominations within protestantism. I am not a Hagee "follower" but I am familiar with some of his views. I am not familiar with any occasion where he has claimed that all Catholics are going to hell and he is not one to keep his views to himself. Ironically, I am aware enough of Catholic doctrine to know that the view of Protestants is that we are not part of the one "true" church. Who, exactly, is being exclusive? In the end the issue of salvation is addressed in through the words of Christ. The good news is that John 3:16 doesn't mention Catholics or Baptists or any other man-made flavor of Christianity. Why do we make it so hard???

>Does this sound like a Catholic hater?

No, but Jerusalem Countdown is certainly violently anti-Catholic.

This is leaving aside the fact that his theology is utter gibberish. Dispensationalism is unBiblical nonsense: yet more poison fruit of the Reformation. Two grotesque and illogical errors--sola scriptura and sola fides--have yielded centuries of bad theology.

As a former fundamentalist/Pentecostal who at one point in my life agreed with Hagee-type teaching, I'd put it this way: lots of these folks love Catholics, partly because they see them as 'poor lost sheep,' but hate CatholicISM. It's really that simple.

I think it's humorous that many of the same people who are trying to link McCain to Hagee (about as different as Obama-Wright as a cat is from a dog) to attack McCain because of Hagee's anti-Catholicism are themselves anti-Catholic with their pro-choice and other anti-Catholic positions. Someone ought to ask these reporters what they think of the Catholic Church's teachings about abortion and birth control and unmarried priests, etc. Reverend Hagee's opposition to Catholicism would look mild in comparison.

You have people like Frank Rich in The New York Times trying to promote a Hagee-McCain connection to offset Wright-Obama - i.e., a Jew attacking McCain on the basis that one of McCain's supporters is anti-Catholic? That is too rich (pardon the pun)!

The article shows us that Hagee, loopy as his theology may be, is not only not anti-Catholic across ther boards, but to the contrary was one this occasion at least genuinely decent and charitable to some Catholic nuns. Also, shows that apparently math,accounting and law aren't much taught at all in Catholic seminaries; zero business savvy at all.

As a presidential story, Hagee may be a bit out there, but not much. And his relationship to Mccain isn't nearly as close as Wright's is (or was) to Obama. a nonstory.

In other news, Cardinal Egan has new vestments for Benedict. Canary (or cowardly?)yellow-goody! Perhaps he'll close a school,convent or parish to celebrate.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008/05/05/2008-05-05_cardinal_egans_dolled_up_in_robe_from_po-2.html

So he got to show up the Catholic Church as feckless and cruel, make money on the deal and make some old nuns beholden to him as instead of their church.

Yeah, that proves he's the most pro-catholic non-catholic ever.

Would that you gave half the thought to the actual content of another, um, candidate's pastor instead of to mere sound-bites.

Rod, I am no friend of Hagee. But as a Protestant boy, I thought your post was thoughtful. I have no time for Catholic haters, but I do understand (understand, but not always agree with) the strong critique that most of my fellow Protestants have of the Catholic Church. If you buy into Reformation theology (as I do), then you simply cannot buy some elements of Catholic theology. Not ever. But that doesn't mean you hate Catholics, or that you don't cooperate with Catholics on matters of common concern. In this day and age, even evangelicals (such as Yours Truly) socialize with Catholics and work with Catholics on a wide variety of issues. Heck, my Bible study partner (a Free Methodist) and I (a Presby) have for years used Henri Nouwen's devotional works. And we've cheered on the Catholic Church when it resisted doctor-assisted suicide in our state. So I think you were right to distinguish theological disagreement from sectarian hate.

Theological disagreement is a two-way street. Just read the post on this thread that included this: "...yet more poison fruit of the Reformation. Two grotesque and illogical errors--sola scriptura and sola fides--have yielded centuries of bad theology." Strongly worded. That's enough to make even the most conciliatory Protestant want to get in touch with their inner Martin Luther.

There will always be theological disagreement among Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox. The trick is to maintain the Christian Consensus while honestly (and respectfully) debating the details of Christian theology

I've never considered Hagee anti-Catholic.

Interesting how folks are willing to give Hagee some slack because of his good words, but are apparently unwilling to give Wright the same slack for his.

Double standard, perhaps?

RJohnson:

You don't seem to get it. There is NOTHING TO COMPARE between Hagee and Wright. In case you didn't get the memo, John McCain's pastor is Dan Yeary. You may therefore make comparision between Wright and Yeary. Please take note of this and kindly revise your DNC talking points before commencing any further blogging.

When all else fails, Obama's fans will always be willing to throw the "race card."

Eleazer Williams took this approach at 2:17 PM with this: "Obama is called an elitist. We'll leave aside that that is crunchspeak for uppity Negro."

If an Obama election means the country has to endure this gratuitous nonsense for four (or even eight) tedious years ... that will be another reason to vote McCain.

Please don't respond to "Eleazar Williams." It's that troll Kim Margosein, banned long ago. I unpublish his stuff as soon as I see it.

Wow...looks like I touched a hot spot here. Two ministers making extreme statements. Two ministers doing really nice things for people they encounter along the way.

The white one gets an "attaboy", the black one gets ridiculed.

It doesn't matter whose pastor either is, what matters is what they said and how they are criticized (or not) for it. Hagee makes incredibly stupid statements about Catholics but gets a pass because he treats some nuns in a Christ-like manner. Wright makes incredibly stupid statements about whites but gets no credit for the ministries he started at the church that touch lives of folks from all races.

The point is not Obama vs. McCain. The point is stupid white minister v. stupid black minister, and how folks here favor one over the other.

Please explain. Hagee does good deeds for Catholics and that shows that contrary to his words he is not anti-Catholic.

Wright ministers to people of all colors at his church. According to the Chicago Tribune he is unfailingly polite to white people. His AIDS and addict ministries treat poor whites. Why don't Wright's good deeds show that contrary to his words, he is not anti-white?

Of course McCain/Hagee and Wright/Obama are not equivalent. McCain sought out Hagee for a political endorsement. He was apparently willing to overlook Hagee's views (or maybe one of those nuns was a cousin). Wright was Obama's pastor, having no place in his political life. Some people are afraid that Wright's 1960's views of America may have ruined/influenced Obama. I dont see any evidence of that. Maybe they influenced him towards his liberal view of the world. Maybe I am going to have to break a personal rule and actually read a book written by a candidate.

Steve

Compare McCain's endorsements by Hagee and Parsley with similar sought-for and/or accepted endorsements for Obama by similarly-controversial persons. That's fair.

What is not fair is comparing the Wright-Obama connection with a Hagee-McCain connection.

WOW!! From Hagee to Rev.Wright. Those who want to believe Rev.Wright was taken out of context and his serman's are 1960's retoric all i can ad is he sure made those who believe that way look silly as he repeated and reinforced those view's just lately.It is so bad that Obama had to officially denounce him. Is Hagee a Catholic hater? About the best i can say is if does then he chooses his word's carefully but his Doctrine's he preaches say he is.As for the politicians in my 67 year's i've never seen a sorrier bunch period.I too was raised as a fundamentalist and was taught to hate the Catholic Church and to have strong fear from her as just as Hagee Preaches we were alway's taught the whore of babylon was the Catholic Church and in the latter day's would revive the Holy Roman empire and the pope would be the beast of Revelation.Thank GOD i read ancient Church history and came to love and eventually become a member of Christ Body.

Per Rod: "It's important to remember that rejecting a particularly church's ecclesiology and/or doctrine is not the same as being 'anti' that church and its people."

You should tell that to Deal:

"McCain Campaign Hits Catholic Trip-wire
Posted on February 28, 2008, 12:42 PM | Deal W. Hudson

"Bill Donohue, president of the Catholic League, issued a press release today criticizing John McCain for publicly thanking Rev. John Hagee for his endorsement. Hagee is the author of several books that contain anti-Catholic statements and falsehoods about the history of the Church.... Now John McCain, in his search for friends on the Religious Right, has found one in Rev. Hagee. I will say to John McCain the same thing I said to Mike Huckabee: There is anti-Catholicism in our culture, some of which is found among Evangelical Christians; you should be aware of this and not do anything that promotes this attitude or those who espouse it.

"In 2000, the McCain campaign made thousands of calls to Catholics in Michigan with the message that George W. Bush had appeared at Bob Jones University where anti-Catholic statements could be found on their web site.

"Clearly, McCain and his campaign advisors know anti-Catholicism is a big issue with Catholic voters."

I too was raised as a fundamentalist and was taught to hate the Catholic Church and to have strong fear from her as just as Hagee Preaches we were alway's taught the whore of babylon was the Catholic Church and in the latter day's would revive the Holy Roman empire and the pope would be the beast of Revelation.Thank GOD i read ancient Church history and came to love and eventually become a member of Christ Body.

If you had read Volumes 1 & 2 of Pelikan's THE CHRISTIAN TRADITION before reading Volume 3, you would have made a different choice. :^)

Rod, have you read any of Hagee's books? Specifically, "From Daniel to Doomsday"? If so, I wonder how you might explain the following passage in light of his statements to Hudson.

From a passage on pages 10-11, where Hagee is discussing the identity of the Great Whore of Babylon, he states: "The evidence would point to Rome...It was Rome where Nero wrapped Christians in oily rags and hung them on lampposts, setting them ablaze to light his gardens. It was Rome that orchestrated the Crusades where Jews were slaughtered...It was Rome that orchestrated the Inquisitions throughout the known world where "heretics" were burned at the stake or pulled in half on torture racks because they were not Roman Catholic."

There is also this portion from "Should Christians Support Israel" (a portion is found on the web at www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett/hag0109.html.

------Begin quote

When did this doctrine of hate toward the Jewish people begin?

It did not begin with the Holocaust and Adolf Hitler who said, "I am only continuing the work of the Catholic Church."2

It did not begin with Martin Luther who said, "Know Christian, that next to the devil thou hast no enemy more cruel, more venomous and violent than a true Jew."3

Luther died a vicious and bitter anti-Semite because the Jews would not accept his new brand of Christianity!

Anti-Semitism did not begin with the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, a diabolical lie contrived by the Russian Czarist Secret Police in 1905.

Anti-Semitism did not begin in America when Henry Ford published those Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion which many Americans believe to be an authentic document. The Protocols described an alleged international takeover of the nations by the Jews.

page 4 ............................ The Ghost of Hitler Lives!

Logic demands these questions be asked;

"If the Jews controlled the nations of the earth, how in the name of God did they manage to get six million of themselves killed in the Holocaust?

How is it, since 70 A.D. when Titus invaded Jerusalem, the Jews have been scattered among the nations of the earth, denied legal rights, denied the right to own land, denied to practice their faith, denied their very lives by religious madmen who demanded they "convert to Christ or be killed?"

Is that control?

Where are the Jews of Spain?

They were murdered in cold blood by the Roman Church!

Where are the Jews of Portugal?

They were murdered in cold blood by the Roman Church!

Where are the Jews of Italy and France?

They were murdered in cold blood by the Roman Church!

------- End Quote

He continues later with:

------- Begin Quote

The perfection of Christian hatred gave birth to the Dark Ages and the Crusades. During the First Crusade to the Holy Land, in 1096, the Crusading armies called "Knights of the Cross" left a trail of Jewish blood across Europe.

Within a three month period, 12,000 Jews were slaughtered in Germany as the Crusaders screamed

"The Jews have killed our Savior. They must convert or be killed."

Some Jewish communities were given the opportunity to save their lives by meeting the Crusaders demand for huge amounts of gold and silver. Those Jewish communities who could not meet the ransom demand were butchered by the "will of God." Others ran to the synagogue, locked the doors, said a final prayer and killed their wives and children mercifully and quickly, lest the cross carrying Crusaders butcher them.

The fathers committed suicide to preserve the sanctity of the name of Jehovah God. The Crusaders were not holy men on a holy mission. They were a motley mob of thieves and robbers whose sins had been forgiven in advance by the pope. Any man who "answered the call of the Crusade" could consider all his financial debts to any Jewish creditor canceled. It was a quick way to get out of debt. As a

page 10 ................... The Ghost of Hitler Lives!

bonus, the Crusaders were permitted to rob the Jews of their possessions on the road to and from Jerusalem.

If they murdered the Jews, and raped their daughters and wives, all was forgiven in advance by the Pope before they left on the Crusade. This was done because "it was the will of God."

------- End Quote

Does Hagee stand behind this view of the Catholic Church today, or has his position changed?

FWIW, the current issue of Charisma Magazine (Charismatic Protestant magazine) is all about Israel. Buy it and read it, and you'll know what a lot of today's Christians think and believe about Israel. Available at Mardel Christian stores and other places.

Rod, you say that Hagee can't be said to be anti-Catholic any more than it can be said that the Pope "hates other religions" just because he believes that the fullness of truth exists in the Catholic Church alone.

Logic is the second thing to go as we age.

WOW!!! I had forgotten that McCain is a known, self-confesssed adulterer. Shouldn't that fact alone negate ANY claim to office he may have had in the eyes of the religious 'right'???

And if not, why the brouhaha over Slick Willy's 'indiscretions'???

I'm surprised Mr. Hudson had the time, between boinking his students and organizing hateful zealots the likes of which make Wright look like Mr. Rogers...

He paid $30,000 to settle the lawsuit, according to this.

Have those been resolved, withdrawn, or paid off?

I was unaware of the Fordham incident until y'all brought it up, so naturally, what happened at the magazine unknown to me.

But Hudson's interview hasn't influenced my opinion of Hagee, if that matters.

If this doesn't give sufficient evidence of Hagee's anti-Catholicism then I give up:

“Anti-Semitism in Christianity began with the statements of the early church fathers, including Eusebius, Cyril, Chrysostom, Augustine, Origen, Justin, and Jerome .... This poisonous stream of venom came from the mouths of spiritual leaders to virtually illiterate congregants, sitting benignly in their pews, listening to their pastors. They labeled the Jews as 'the Christ killers, plague carriers, demons, children of the devil, bloodthirsty pagans who look for an innocent child during the Easter week to drink his blood, money hungry Shylocks, who are deceitful as Judas was relentless.'"

· "The Roman Catholic Church, which was supposed to carry the light of the gospel, plunged the world into the Dark Ages.... The Crusaders were a motley mob of thieves, rapists, robbers, and murderers whose sins had been forgiven by the pope in advance of the Crusade ....The brutal truth is that the Crusades were military campaigns of the Roman Catholic Church to gain control of Jerusalem from the Muslims and to punish the Jews as the alleged Christ killers on the road to and from Jerusalem."

· "The Spanish Inquisition was perhaps the most cynical plot in the black history of Catholicism, aimed at expropriating the property of wealthy Jews and converts in Spain for the benefit of the royal court and the Roman Catholic Church."

· "Adolf Hitler attended a Catholic school as a child and heard all the fiery anti-Semitic rantings from Chrysostom to Martin Luther. When Hitler became a global demonic monster, the Catholic Church and Pope Pius XII never, ever slightly criticized him. Pope Pius XII, called by historians 'Hitler's Pope,' joined Hitler in the infamous Concordat of Collaboration, which turned the youth of Germany over to Nazism, and the churches became the stage background for the bloodthirsty cry, 'Pereat Judea'.... In all of his [Hitler's] years of absolute brutality, he was never denounced or even scolded by Pope Pius XII or any Catholic leader in the world. To those Christians who believe that Jewish hearts will be warmed by the sight of the cross, please be informed—to them it's an electric chair."

http://www.catholicleague.org/catalyst.php?year=2007&month=June&read=2264