McCain to Hagee: Drop dead.

Hagee and Klinghoffer are by no means the first to go a-lustily hacking through such thickets. Critic George Steiner, whom I've just, as it happens, teased at my "blog"

tinyurl.com/55hr9p

did something of the same twenty-seven years ago; Wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Portage_to_San_Cristobal_of_A.H.

The Portage to San Cristobal of A.H. is a 1981 literary novella written by literary critic George Steiner, in which Jewish Nazi hunters find Adolf Hitler (A.H.) alive in the Amazon jungle thirty years after the end of World War II. The book generated considerable controversy after its publication because in it, Steiner, who is Jewish, allows Hitler to defend himself when he is put on trial in the jungle by his captors. There Hitler maintains that Israel owes its existence to the Holocaust and that he is the "benefactor of the Jews".

> The attention Hitler is receiving, however, renews his strength, and when the trial begins, he brushes aside his "defence attorney" and begins a long speech in four parts in his own defence:

1. Firstly, Hitler claims he took his doctrines from the Jews and copied the notion of the master race from the Chosen people and their need to separate themselves from the "unclean". "My racism is a parody of yours, a hungry imitation."
2. Hitler justifies the Final Solution by maintaining that the Jews' God, purer than any other, enslaves its subjects, continually demanding more than they can give and "blackmailing" them with ideals that cannot be attained. The "virus of utopia" had to be stopped.
3. Hitler states that he was not the originator of evil. "[Stalin] had perfected genocide when I was still a nameless scribbler in Munich."
4. Lastly, Hitler maintains that the Reich begat Israel and suggests that he is the Messiah, "... whose infamous deeds were allowed by God in order to bring His people home." He closes by asking, "Should you not honour me who have made ... Zion a reality?"

&c. ["Guaranteed to break the ice at Nazi parties" - Ed.]

Correction: separated ourselves from non-Jews.

If I were in Hagee's church when he came out with that I would have been really nervous, something about the death of the first born, plague of Frenchmen, locusts attacking the parking lot, stray lightning bolts...

"I'm not asking whether you think they're right or wrong; I'm asking whether or not they should say these things out loud."

You bet they should say them out loud. How else will we identify the kooks?

I'd like to hear the exact words Hagee said, and the context in which it was said. I think he may be getting slandered here. Hey, but it's O.K. to slander him, after all, he is an evangelical.

Any traditional Christian could be taken to task in the way Hagee has. How so? We believe in divine providence, the God intervenes in the affairs of man. We also believe that God is ultimately in control. If anything happens in this universe, it's under the auspices of God's ultimate control. So, if Jews are slaughtered by Hitler, it means that God allowed it to happen. And, it could be construed that He allowed it to happen with His greater plan in mind, which again refers back to the providence of God. So, because of our doctrine we're as guilty as Hagee, if you are going to impute guilt on that basis. I'm pretty sure Hagee hates Hitler as much as any of us. And, he's one of Israel's biggest supporters. Is anybody picking up on the mixed metaphor here?

Hagee denies ever declaring the Catholic Church the whore of Babylon. His books and sermons declare that mantle will be filled by a coming apostate church. I doubt if he ever said Hitler was a Catholic who murdered Jews either. Most people know Hitler gave up Catholicism at age nine, spitting out the communion wafer and never setting foot in a church again. He wanted a return of Nordic pagan religion.

Most people know Hitler gave up Catholicism at age nine, spitting out the communion wafer and never setting foot in a church again.

Can you give a citation for that? Because it never happened. I think most people can verify that Hitler paid his taxes to the Catholic Church through 1945. So what? Obviously he was a very bad Catholic. But don't twist history to make a point.

Really, none of the kinds of things that Hagee et al. say about God punishing the Jews, America, or whatever other group of people should be scandalous in themselves when looked at from a historic Judeo-Christian perspective

Given Jewish-Xian relations and history, I think it's despicable when a non-Jew says it.

You may not remember that Rabbi Ovadia Yosef said something similar a while back. It wasn't well received by most Israelis. We all know that there are people who believe such things, so let them say it. But if people can't understand why some of us, and some of us, not necessarily me, know quite a bit about Jewish Theology and the Talmud whether we are Orthodox or not, are deeply offended by such a view, then, and I can't say that this happens often, I'm speechless. Also, there is a view in Judaism that one should criticize another only if it has a chance of being efficacious ( although I can't produce a text on this from memory, so take it with a grain of salt). I doubt that such a view about The Holocaust has much of a chance of being efficacious. So maybe they should keep quiet.

It's interesting that what doesn't get Hagee in trouble with McCain and other conservatives is his suggestion Katrina occurred because of New Orleans' sin and because there was going to be a gay event that weekend.

McCain was right to drop Hagee. Hagee would do more harm than good in terms of bringing in the votes. Hagee should only have kept his thoughts to himself if he wanted to endorse McCain. He knows that his views are out of the mainstream and are controversial, so by spouting off at the mouth, he made his choice. I thought that Wright should have shut his mouth since he did have a relationship with Obama. If I knew that things that were coming out of my mouth could hurt a very good friend the chance of winning a presidential election, I'd shut my mouth. I think more than anything, when Wright went on his grand finale motor mouthing tour, he revealed that he's not much of a friend and that life is really all about him more than anything.

I would have to do some Torah Study before forming an opinion about what Mr. Klinghoffer had to say. Orthodox Jews might take the Bible stories literally, but many Jewish scholars try to look for deeper meaning in the Torah that moves beyond the idea that God is a being in the sky with human emotions who rewards those who follow his orders with manna and sends in the bullies to beat you up and kill you when you misbehave. Convenient that he would blame all the death and destruction on the Reform Jews. Maybe God decided to send Hitler because a few of the Orthodox Rabbis were secretly raping little boys in the synagogue. I'm making that up, but if God punishes everyone for the sins of a few, then how do we know it wasn't the sins of the Orthodox that caused God to send in the murderers.

I don't think that God intervenes in the world all that often. Really, I say "all that often," but honestly, I don't think that God intervenes in the world at all in the way that we normally think. That doesn't mean that I think that God is absent or doesn't exist. I think of God as something more like some form of matter that can't be seen but can be experienced and felt. It provides one with an overwhelming sense of love, grace, and peace, and allows one to behave in ways that are so loving that it seems weird to most people. God is always there but man rarely opens up the heart and mind to know Him. It's through the warming of the heart and through the actions of men with warm hearts that God intervenes in the world. God doesn't send people to kill because anger and wrath isn't part of the nature of God.

klinghoffer isn't even really jewish. he was adopted by orthodox jews as a child, and he plays up his adopted faith as part of his sad search to have genuine identity. of course he was not born of a jewish woman so it's all an act (and i don't want to hear anyone chime in that it's any other way - you convert to judaism, great, but you're never *really* a jew and everyone knows it, including klinghoffer). i read an article of his in brown magazine a few months ago. he's also a discovery institute fellow/member/propagandist, so we see what kind of intellectual heft/penchant for honesty he has, which is to say, none.

it doesn't surprise me in the least that someone like rod dreher is posting his drivel and giving it a patina legitimacy with some sort of disingenuous "intellectual freedom" defense. see! a "jew" said the same thing so hagee isn't so bad! please.

jeremiah wright? angry, conspiratorial, clownish. and filled with rage mostly directed at the (white) america that has treated people like him so poorly in his own adult lifetime. monster.

hagee? god *sent hitler to force the jews to israel*. this is of course so revelation will happen and non-christians (including jews who don't convert) all die and go right to hell. !!!! god *sent katrina because of gay pride*. !!!! the single largest christian sect on earth is *the great whore*. !!!!

defense from dreher. how crunchy.

"Pastor Hagee -- who is demonstrably a passionate philosemite"

Yeah, he loves Jews. Loves 'em to death.

Rev. Hagee is not McCain's pastor. Rev Wright is Obama's pastor, but somehow Hagee became McCain's pastor which is incredible. Hed is very very distant. If the Omabm camp is able to set the terms and mindset of the campaign, McCain has already loss.

And it is beginning to look like that is the case.

If the Omabm camp is able to set the terms and mindset of the campaign, McCain has already loss.

Actually, the attacks on Obama are setting the terms and mindset of the campaign. This is the byproduct of six weeks of droning on and on about Wright as if it was the most important political story of the campaign. If you are unhappy about the attention on Hagee and McCain, you have the conservative pundit class to blame.

You're missing the real story.
If anti-Catholic words are discovered, fake an apology and all if forgiven.
If anti-Jewish words are discovered, buy yourself a tombstone.

Harvey writes, "I've said all along the best thing that could happen would be for the general public to hear what these preachers actually believe and preach to their flock."

Amen to that. Within the closed system they operate in, their preachings and teachings may seem perfectly reasonable, but when the bright spotlight of media publicity is applied, watch them scramble and backtrack. More spotlights please.

What to do with these troublesome ministers? Why not just let them endorse who they want? Hagee and Parsley can endorse McCain. Wright can endorse Obama. Neither McCain nor Obama endorse what they say. That's really the point. There is something in Obama and McCain that these guys like. Fine. Isn't the real issue where Obama and McCain want to lead the country? Stick to what they say.

Ah, so it was secularism that is to blame for the holocaust and not at all the centuries of christian anti-semitism... Oops, should I have not said that out loud?

Rod, I hope you revist this again. I would like your take on the situation perhaps after you review your past post "Huck, Hagee and tolerance "and which you followed it up with a excellent piece here at "Huck contra Catholics."

Deal Hudson is rasing oither concerns today here
A New Relationship Between the GOP and the Religious Right?
http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3720&Itemid=80#jreaction

I guess my question is why were these concerns not voiced more when it was a issue of Hagee and Huckabee. You actually did by the way as can be seen above. I think this issue got of control too early on. I share similar concerns now and did then I find this partly ironic.

In Louisiana the State Democrat Party ran a sophisticated anti Catholic Campaign against Bobby Jindal in North Louisiana which is very Protestant. The Churches that denounced it and stood by Bobby were ones that do not have a very pleasant Catholic theology viewpoint.The Chairman that authorized and ran that campaign got reelected to head the Democrat party. This was over the objections of Democrat Lt Gov Landrieu who said that the anti Catholic ad campaign was a disgrace.

But a not a peep of protest from the Catholic political world or Catholic Conservative bloggers over this latest development.I find my self in a strange situation the past year , where anti Catholic theology wise Pentecostals and Evangelicals are fighting for a Catholic, an Democrat Lt Gov is raising concerns and yet many Catholics are focused of making lepers of political allies because they do not like their theology. It is indeed a strange world.

Strange World indeed. I do wonder if a perhaps people on all sides of a Republican Primary fight set in motion months ago new standards we shall all regret later on.

At least, with little delay, McCain dumped the nutjob. Of course, Hagee just says what many xians really believe--that the Jews must be in the right place(i.e.Israel)for christ to return, and that then he'll consign most Jews to the inferno. That's a notion that's taken substantial root in american evangelical circles. Of course, modern day Israel holds about the same relation to the biblical Israel is a chainsaw does to an orange.

And many evengelicals do think Cathloicism a cult, displaying their ignorance of history, since 1st century Christians were substantially Catholic, holding the eucharist as the real presence, being governed by bishops, and practising baptism as forgiveness of sins.Helpful hint: cults don't last from A.D. 33 to 2008, hello!

Let's see the score so far:

Obama: Attends the church of a racist bigot pastor for 20 years and claims he never heard JW say any of those things. Disavowed him only when he became a political liability, after which JW became an even BIGGER liability. Obama: -20

McCain recently solicited the influence of a man who he knew little about, a man who apparently has his own racist bigot sermon history, but who is not McCain's pastor. I'm ruling an additional -5 to McCain for not knowing the character of a man of whom he is asking a personal public favor. But his score of -6 still is much, much better than Obama.

It is funny to me too. As a white male in America you try not to bring the race card into matters of politic. In this situation you have to call it what it is. It is clearly the case in this situation. Why does McCain get a free pass from the media and the press while Obama was hung.