Southern Baptist decline

I think pretty much every religious organization overestimates its size. Heck, even little independent churches exaggerate their numbers. And CAIR still insists that there are 8M Muslims in the US.

Everybody is doing it.

As someone who grew up Southern Baptist, didn't go to church in college, came back to the fold in a non-denominational mega-church, and now is a PCA Presbyterian, I think I am exactly the profile you are describing.

The reason why I left the Southern Baptist church was because my world reeked of pious religiosity. It wasn't worth the effort to sift through the extra-biblical legalism to find the gospel of grace.

Now I know, as Tim Keller famously states, "that I am more flawed and sinful than I ever dared believe, but that I am more loved and accepted than I ever dared hope."

In my adopted small town, the local Southern Baptist Church is across the street from my wife's bookstore. As we drink our Sunday morning latte, we have occasion to notice the congregation entering or leaving the church building.

Most of them are old.

I suggest that the declining numbers are the natural result of older members passing on and not being replaced by new members. mdavid's rules of demographics apply to smaller groups as well as to large populations.

I grew up in SBC churches and have plenty of friends and family members in the SBC, one of whom is a minister. I'm currently a member of an SBC church, though I occasionally attend a Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (LCMS) church and would certainly join the LCMS if doing so wouldn't create a gigantic rife in my marriage. Confessional Lutherans are right about worship and the sacraments and Baptist are sorely lacking in these matters, but when one is married leaving one church for another can be complicated.
Anyway, my sense from many of my friends (20s and 30s) is that many young people just don't want to have anything to do with some of the SBC's silly rules and embarrassing behavior. For example, the SBC's insistence that drinking alcohol is always sinful has driven away many young people who understand that 1) this position isn't close to being biblical and 2) one can *gasp* drink in moderation. There are other issues as well such as the strange way that SBC leaders try and fight the "culture wars," with the Disney flap being a prime example. One could also cite denominational infighting. Finally, despite the SBC's reputation for evangelism, it is still wed to the questionable techniques of revivalism and can be a culturally insular denomination at times i.e. very Southern.
The SBC does do a lot of good things. But I'm not surprised that it is a shrinking denomination. The church where my wife and I are members is a more Reformed SBC church with a lot of young couples. It is a member of the SBC, but has as little to do with the denomination and its politics as possible for the reasons I've listed above. My guess is that other churches and individuals have gone a step further and simply left the SBC.
It seems one trend at the moment is a rejection of "organized religion" and religious institutions/denominational leadership. Perhaps that is why the so-called "non-denominationals" (read: Baptists or Pentecostals without a formal denominational membership) are growing so fast. It's also worth noting that from that Pew survey, about one-third of the "unaffiliated" are "religious unaffiliated." I'm not sure if Americans are so much becoming more secular/irreligious as they are distrustful of religious institutions/denominational leadership. Surely the modest decline that is beginning in the SBC is part of this.

rr

From a Former Southern Baptist now Catholic viewpoint

Rod what we are seeing is in part due to the influence and growing mainstream acceptance of Pentecostal sects and their theology. A theology that perhaps was not given enough apologetic opposition in the decades recently. I find a lot of Southern Baptist say the dardnest things on the trinity.

We saw this friction and tension and Baptist angst play out in the Huckabee campaign where a lot of Southern Baptist were not thrilled that the Governor was declaring himself "Bap Coastal" all over the place

Doug Wead pointed this out in his post Huckabee's big mistake

http://dougwead.wordpress.com/2008/01/24/mike-huckabees-big-mistake/

That tension you see there talked about is going under the radar but very much seen in large parts of the rural South where at one time the SOuthern Baptist Culture, Doctrine and ethos once reigned.

It is not the only reason but is a part of it

I currently attend an SBC not because I'm Southern Baptist, but I am Baptist and can sort of swing from vine to vine if there isn't too much difference theologically. I grew up in a GARBC [General Association of Regular Baptist Churches] church in Minnesota, where SBC is kinda thin, but that group is very small down here in the South. The thing of it is, there are at least fifty different Baptist denomination and organizations in the country, plus independents, and I could feel comfortable in most of them. The differences come down to individual congregations and many factors within them: size, programming, worship emphasis, prayer life, nursery conditions [hey, it makes a big difference when you have kids under three], age, budget, facilities, distance from home, distance from town [for country churches], vision for building both congregation and facilities, and attitude of the people-- in no particular order.

If we left the church we're at now, it would likely be because of travel distance if we move back into town as we plan to.

Well, since you've asked . . .

First, my bona fides. Born into a SBC family and raised literally next door to the church, I was baptised at the age of ten. I hold three degrees from a "large Baptist university." I am an ordained deacon and have been active in my local church since moving to town a quarter century ago.

But I don't know for how much longer.

As Charles Cosimano has stated, much of the disillusionment with the SBC is due to the convention and its secular political agenda. I'm Southern Baptist, but I'm not a Republican. I have voted in every presidential election since 1968, and I've yet to vote for a Republican. It doesn't help that my local church is identified with a political agenda that I don't share. Ironically, it was the Baptists that first insisted in a "wall of separation". But Baptist churches are autonomous. The SBC does not control any church. It is "messengers" that make up the annual meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention, not representatives or delegates.

So its not really the politics that is driving me away. What I can't stand is the noise. For me there needs to be a fundamental difference between the sacred and the profane, differences in the way we comport ourselves, differences even in the way we dress. (Whatever happened to "Sunday Dress", where men wore suits and ties and ladies wore dresses, hats and gloves?)

I believe almost any form of worship is valid if it brings the believer in closer communion with God. Some people handle snakes, but not me. Some people speak in tongues, but not me. And some people sing praise chorses in a happy-clappy service, but not me. I love to sing . . . all the verses, as written, preferably from the Broadman Hymnal.

And I miss the old style homiletics, the exquisite building of a sermon around a central scriptural theme. Give me that the "Old Time Religion" and leave the televangelists and praise bands and Christian Rock for Woodstock.

For example, the SBC's insistence that drinking alcohol is always sinful has driven away many young people who understand that 1) this position isn't close to being biblical and 2) one can *gasp* drink in moderation.

As a former member of a Southern Baptist church, that was the straw that broke my back, too. Previously, when I had disagreements with the church over doctrine, they could point at scripture, and I could point at scripture.

We both had valid points to make, and although I felt they had a lot of really bad arguments, at least they were biblically based, in theory. In practice, they tended to be 'biblically based' on what people decided the Bible said in the 1800s, totally misinterpreted and with no thought to the how and why certain rules existed and which were intended solely to keep Jewish society together 3000 years ago...but at least they had scripture behind them.

And the the alcohol issue came up again. The SBC spent 2006 discussing that, including an amendment to the anti-alcohol resolution, which didn't get passed, barring people who used alcohol from serving in the organization.

I know all you Catholics and Orthodox people are confused, because in your world God's will in interpreted through the church. But in theory, in Baptist theology, the scripture, and only the scripture, is what's important.

In practice, that isn't true for many things, but it is in general, and it's why my church has an open communion, and makes people get dunked underwater to join the church but freely admits that is just a tradition for the church and not a requirement to be a Christian.

So even crap like 'Should women be allowed to be deacons?' that sometimes got raised in my local church, I kept my cool as long as there was a single Bible verse someone could point at that possibly justified that position.

And then the SBC goes and passing something that even defenders of it have to admit isn't scripturally based at all.

So apparently the SBC won't decide fundamental issues of half the population serving as leaders, which the Bible has one or two verses saying they can't, but then examples of them doing so with no objection. The SBC won't decide that's a societal prejudice from back then that would have made them ineffectual as leaders, but wouldn't now so it's okay, which is my interpretation, or even that they shouldn't be leaders now, which would be wrong but at least something.

No, they're not going to decide something as important and actually Biblically-questionable as that, but drinking, which the Bible has literally no problems with in moderation, should be entirely condemned at the national level.

At that point I realized they weren't trying to figure out what God wanted, they were instead a bunch of legalistic fools who thought they knew what God wanted and were going to find justification for it anyway they could, and even if they couldn't they'd still condemn it.

DavidTC,

I hear you. And I think the alcohol ban is a big one for younger folks who see teetotaling and prohibition as a cultural issue left over from their grandparent's day. The legalism that is prevalent among the powers that be in the SBC is on alcohol, however, is astounding at times. There isn't one verse in the Bible that states that drinking alcohol is sinful, though of course the abuse of alcohol is condemned. Jesus' first miracle was turning water into strong wine at a wedding. Somehow things like that in the Bible don't seem to register with the SBC leadership. Really, with the alcohol issue it could be said that the SBC has substituted man-made Baptist tradition for Scripture.
I'm lucky in that my SBC church is young and somewhat Reformed, so alcohol isn't an issue. Heck, the pastors drink. Still, they do use grape juice for communion, which means they haven't entirely gotten away from the SBC's official position/tradition. That's regrettable, but isn't the end of the world for me since it's been years since I've been able to take communion in good conscience at a church with a Zwinglian or Reformed understanding of the eucharist.

rr

My dad is a SBC minister... He drinks wine everyday for his heart... But he got a prescription from the Dr. in case one of the Deacons saw him... HA!

There has been a lot of the same fighting in the ranks as other denom's... for the SBCs it is about the role of women, authority, etc. Same as in my communion, and many others.

As for why I left... I stopped going to church altogether, and no longer considered myself a Christian... Then, came back to the church after college and kids craving tradition... spent some time with the Anglicans, then the Orthodox, and settled in with Rome.

Funny, I was one of the conservative traditionalists in the Anglican church, and now (not much of an issue in Orthodoxy to my mind...) But I have little sympathy for the conservatives in the SBC (can't call them traditionalists... as they are Prots and that is a contradiction in terms...) Not sure why... Or at least not sure I can articulate it now...

Anyway, in this area of Texas, I can confirm that in my town there is a baptist church for every 4 families... I think that means these doctrinal squabbles have been going on a while... And issues with lack of authority...

As for the numeric decline... I think the non-denom thing is a factor... I know a lot of people who attend what are essentially baptist churches but are termed non-denom... those people are much too sophisticated to be seen in a church with SBC on the sign...

Perhaps it has to do with the drinking thing... not sure.

I do hope the Baptists sort things out ...

Other than glorious booze, one of the more common themes emerging from this thread is that people change their church when they change their community. It is the same phenomena the old-line Protestants are having. It is very hard to join a new community.

FYI,

I agree with you that it's hard to call Protestants in general and Southern Baptist specifically "traditionalist." Then again, it's again debatable if Anglo-Catholic and confessional Lutherans are Protestants, at least in the American sense of the term. The liturgy at the confessional Lutheran churches I've attended looks an awful lot like a Catholic mass, and some Lutherans don't like to be called "Protestant" for fear of being mixed up with the Baptists and Presbyterians and such. Perhaps if a church has a catholic liturgy and believes in the real presence and baptismal regeneration, it isn't Protestant in the American sense.

rr

"...the SBC is actually a lot smaller than they make themselves out to be."

This came from a survey of Baptist wives.

and then there's the issue of year-to-year declines in baptisms in the SBC...
it seems obvious that the power of Myth is losing its grip in America...
as it has in Europe where the population is only about 4 percent Christian...
it's just that 230 year old America is slightly behind the cultural curve of older Europe...
I thought I read studies of American teens that suggest that Christianity in America will quickly be heading down towards that 4 percent level...
yes...
there seems to be a trend to disregarding the supernatural stories of superstitious ancient men...

numbers faith hope love joy peace to all...
Forgive God...

quote: "there seems to be a trend to disregarding the supernatural stories of superstitious ancient men..."

It's only fitting that you like to constantly talk about myths and superstitions on this blog since it's pretty clear that you've embraced the myths and superstitions of modern secular man.

rr

Ed J
My impression is that a good number of the large, non-denominational churches are essentially Baptist in theology.

It may be a kind of rebranding in which the old brand is left behind like a shed skin.

I suspect you're right about that. I've been thinking the SBC's days are numbered for some time now.

For a denomination that, in theory believes in salvation by grace, not by works, and in theory believes in personal interpretation of the scripture and a personal connection to God, where church and denominational leaders have no presumed authority to speak for God beyond than anyone else...it has been amazingly legalistic.

Possibly it's legalistic because, as it's been pointed out, the SBC doesn't actually have any local authority, except to kick out the entire church or at least threaten that, and don't even know what's going on in most churches unless someone contacts them, and thus their stupid rules don't actually have any effect or enforcement. Which, in a vicious circle, means the only people who pay attention to it, and go to conferences, are people who are legalistic freaks, who can pass any rules they want because no one else cares.

Born and raised SBC, choir, deacon, worship team, small group leader, etc. Our smallish (80+ sunday attendance), rapidly graying church began a real steep decline about 5-6 years ago, around the same time internal conflicts caused rifts between the pastor and many members that basically paralyzed it. We had moved further away and my wife and prayerfully looked for a church closer to home. We found a home in a PC(USA) church that was also a member of the CCM, and that functionally worshipped little differently than my former SBC church.

The internal conflicts in my former church that were not based solely on personality stemmed from attempts to move to a more seeker-friendly model. The church had joined paraconvention groups in response to the SBC's more conservative and legalistic stances.

Our current Presbyterian church uses some liturgical readings but is otherwise modern in its worship style.

My family attends a large, semi-charismatic Southern Baptist church. But you would never know it unless you delved into the budget for mission giving. The pastor never mentions the SB convention in sermons except to criticize it for its infighting, legalism, narrowness, etc.

As far as I know, only one of the larger SB churches in the city is openly proud of its SB affiliation; the rest keep their distance publicly, use what they can of SB institutions and resources, and disregard the rest. Even many students at SB seminaries are now "post-denominational." They belong to SB churches to get half off their tuition, but when they graduate they will plant churches, serve as missionaries, or work for non-denominational churches or para-church ministries and mission societies.

There is a great deal of flexibility flux all the time in church and denominational identification. But because each SB church is free to affiliate with and support the missions, ministries, and educational institutions it wants to (or in Baptistese, "feels led to"), it is much better than the mainline church I belonged to before. (The United Methodist Church.) It is a controlling, top-down institutional dinosaur that is declining much faster and is much older. Like the other dying mainline churches, it allows maximum theological freedom to the point that much of it is no longer historically Christian in doctrine, but is as conservative and repressive as it can be in terms of institutional control and dominance.

The S. Baptists are the opposite of this, adhering--although usually in an intellectually shallow way--to historic Christian orthodoxy, but allowing maximum institutional and liturgical freedom. Neither of these extremes is ideal, but of the two the latter has a better chance of making it through to the next generation.

Born and raised Southern Baptist - I kid around that I was born straight into the pew.

I would say this about the SBC. I would not characterize it historically an "unstable" tradition, granted it has not been in existence as long as the Roman Catholic Church and other denominations, but in its history tradition and orthodoxy have been prized components.

Speaking from experience in the church I grew up int, this all started to change in the late 80's/early 90's. Once "contemporary worship" came into vogue some interesting things happened. First, the number of kids and youth participating grew rapidly. Second, older members of the church began participating less in the programs for children and youths.

I look back at that church now and see some very negative effects. First of all those kids that came into the church are no longer there. While the methods of worship and teaching were effective in terms of "reaching out" they did not create the lasting devotion and love of God that they should have. Second, you now have a system of worship and teaching that is some sort of hybrid that no one is enthusiastic about. This is most obvious when it comes to worship, praise, and the choral programs. I don't know how many non-SBC'ers will understand this comment, but I have not heard "The Old Rugged Cross" in years, and that was once a cherished traditional hymn.

I am still searching (6+ years) for a traditional Baptist church here in Austin, and I am afraid they may not exist anymore... A call to "traditional Christianity" does not always correlate to mainline Protestantism, Catholicism, or Orthodoxy - I wish I could find a remnant of my own tradition.

I agree that something is wrong with the SBC's "brand" as many Baptist churches don't advertise being SBC anymore. So is there anything the SBC could do to "re-brand" itself? Or do you all think that the denomination's image of a petty, legalistic, fundamentalist, political, denomination is too ingrained now?
I wonder if "re-branding" the SBC is a lost cause since those who might be able to pull it off have either 1) already left the SBC 2) are in the SBC, but distance themselves from the denomination and don't participate in its politics. As DavidTC noted, those who tend to go to all the conferences and vote on the rules tend to be the most legalistic. Those who think what said conferences are doing is nonsense and are a waste of their time simply don't bother going in the first place.
I don't think the number of Baptists or those with a Baptist type theology will decline greatly, but it seems likely that because of the inner dynamics of the SBC that it as a denomination will continue to shrink and splinter as people, especially young people and young church plants go their own way. And I wouldn't be surprised if the powers that be in the SBC are clueless as to what their actions are doing.

rr

Just for fun one day, I added up the membership of all the SBC's in my small hometown. I was interested after seeing that a small church close to my parents house was listed as having 300+ members. On a good Sunday they have around 25 people in attendance.

So...I added them up. And guess what? There are more Southern Baptists in the town in which I grew up than people. And keep in mind, there are many other churches in this town...Pentecostal, Lutheran, Methodist, etc.

Isn't it time for them to get honest about their numbers? After all, a lie is a lie is a lie.

-C

I've visited several Southern Baptist churches in my lifetime. I've had the same experience in that I didn't find them very friendly or accepting of visitors. I now attend a Methodist church and within several years was appointed as the Education chairman. It has also been my experience that evangelical churches tend to be very cliquey which to me is a great oxymoron.

I believe the problem stems from compromising with the world. This isn't just happening in the SBC, but also the independants. Most SBC's and some Independents thought it'd be a great idea to bring in rock bands, coffee shops, and discussion times to attract the world to the church. This, however, does not work.

I find it ironic that since churches began doing this, and especially started promoting some 50 translations of the Bible (for ease of use), church attendance is down. I thought the new bibles were supposed to make it easier to desciple christians and easier for the unsaved to understand...I thought compromising and looking more like the world instead of taking a stand was supposed to increase numbers and salvation...Instead, we have record lows in savation and church membership, but since the 70's US population has increased by 46%.

The fact is, people don't need all these compromises to come to God. Unsaved people won't hear without a preacher--someone to share and "rightly divide" the truth. They don't need a perverted translation. The scripture is "spirituall discerned". Just as the ethiopian did not understand what he was reading in Isaiah, unsaved don't know what they are reading. Not because an occasional word in the KJV is obsolete, but because scripture is spiritually discerned.

James 4 says "a friend of the world is an enemy of God." We don't bring worldly activities into our churches to attract the unsaved, we preach the truth, and act as beacons of the truth, and share the truth with the world. It has worked like that for 6,000 years, so why do we suddenly need a revelutionary way??

Preach the truth and don't stray from it.