Weather Underground and 1968

Remember how Obama was going to get us past the culture wars started in the 1960s? Even Rush Limbaugh was enthusiastic about him elevating the debate only three months ago.

"There always seems to be an establishment -- of the left, of the right -- willing to absolve without question"

Money!

many,many years from now... Anthropologists will look back upon this era and know that the only God we TRULY worshipped, nevermind all the talk and posturing, was money.

Great post, Rod. I've also watched the documentary on the Weather Underground that you've just seen and I also recommend it highly to those who haven't had the chance.

For me, though, the most troubling aspect of Barack Obama's connection to William Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn is one that isn't covered in the film, which is otherwise fairly comprehensive for its length.

The aspect in question is Bernadine Dohrn's willingness to serve time in jail rather than testify against her fellow Weather Underground member Susan Rosenberg, who is understood to have been involved in a robbery (of a Brinks armored car) toward the end of the 1970's that resulted in the murders of two policemen and a security guard. Rosenberg was never convicted for her involvement in this robbery -- in part because of Dohrn's refusal to cooperate with the authorities involved in the investigation -- though she was later convicted and sent to prison after being caught with a stock-pile of explosives in the mid-1980's.

Rosenberg was among the Weather Underground members and other militant leftists -- who had been or still were in prison on various charges -- whom Bill Clinton pardoned, or whose sentences he commuted, in his notorious flurry of "clemency" on his last day in office.

It's absolutely astonishing to think that two of the three major contenders this year for the presidency of the United States are (variously) on personally, professionally, and politically friendly terms not merely with militant radicals once engaged in violent sedition against the country, but with militant radicals once engaged in violent sedition against the country whose efforts resulted in the *murder* of fellow citizens in more than one case.

With any luck, future historians, and future citizens interested in history, will one day look back on facts like this the way we today can now look back on something like the friendly terms on which Woodrew Wilson and other leading politicians of the 1910's and 1920's legitimized the Ku Klux Klan and other militant white supremacist groups.

Guilt by association increases exponentially with the gravity of the crime of which the associate in question stands accused.

Hillary Clinton is loosely, and Barack Obama is more closely, associated with Bernadine Dohrn, who is very closely associated with Susan Rosenberg, who is as closely associated as anyone could be with the murder of three people, without having murdered those three people herself.

There are 300 million people in this country, many thousands of whom are more than capable of meeting or exceeding the standard of performance established by recent presidents, indeed the standard set by presidents in general -- which (some notable exceptions aside) is not that high a bar to clear.

Given this fact, surely, surely, we can find leadership of stronger moral fiber than what has been demonstrated by Clinton and Obama on this particular point.

I agree with Rod that being on the left does seem to mean never having to say your sorry -- and also never having to ask your comrades to apologize.

But that's why being on the left is not -- morally-speaking -- as good a place to be as many liberals, however well-intentioned, seem to think.

If it requires one to do the sorts of things that Clinton and Obama have done with regard to Ayers and Dohrn and Rosenberg, then it requires too much.

And before the flack starts to fly, let me say that being on the right is not necessarily a better place to be. But that's not what we're talking about right now.

Every time I think about this, I'm haunted by an interview I remember hearing on NPR with the families of the three men killed in the armored car robbery I've mentioned above. The interview may even have been in connection with Ayers' memoir of the Weather Underground, though I'm not sure. Anyway, what struck me most was how the inconsolable grief that had been inflicted on the loved ones of these men made the political ideology that had been used to justify their deaths seem inconceivably petty and mean-spirited and those who had partaken of that ideology inconceivably callous, crude, venal, vicious, and stupid -- in short, not at all the sort of company that anyone with any sense would choose to keep.

There was madness upon the Earth in those days. I was 18/19 and a student in 1968 but I was on the other side, a Young Republican and member of YAF, so I don't have any rosey memories of student radical days. I have rosey memories of driving them nuts and making them paranoid about the possibility that we were stockpiling poison gas to use on them. (We really did. We had our college SDS afraid to do anything!) And, of course, some of the gadgets we worked actually have come into usage, like a sound gun that made a horrible piercing noise by simply using a big amplifier and feedback.

Ah the memories of a misspent youth!

But to a broader point. It was like a pressure cooker exploded. I always use an old film of a Billy Graham crusade in Chicago in 1962 to illustrate my point. If you look at the crowd, it was a hot day, in the 90s, but everyone was dressed up, almost in uniform. It was a portrait of a culture that was about to go boom and in a few years it did just that. And as I look back to that explosion I do not have a feeling that it was so bad, but that it really could have been much much worse.

Duncan Macintyre cites the various crimes of the Left, and appropriately so. How about respectable war criminals like MacNamara and Kissinger, men with the blood of millions on their hands? These evil old men are living their declining years in peace and honor. Is that somehow all right because they perpetrated Official Bloodshed instead of the freelance variety practiced by the Weather Underground loons?

I'm absolutely no fan of the Weather Underground Terrorists, and despise their violence. But I'd like to point out, Rod, that when you say that you think Ayers or Dohrn and the rest would have been far worse murders than Kissenger, Johnson or Nixon, that you are being being utterly unfair.

American actions during the Vietnam War caused 500,000 to 2 Million Vietnamese deaths, most of those civilian. 58,000 American soldiers were killed, and 350,000 were wounded, many of them severely, often maimed and disfigured for life. More bomb tonnage was dropped on South East Asia than the US dropped during the whole of WWII and hideous weapons like land mines, napalm and Agent Orange were used with abandon. The Vietnamese people are still suffering the effects of this rapine.

The Weathermen, in contrast, never killed anyone. Excepting only when 3 of them blew themselves up accidentally in 1970. They only bombed symbolic targets, and most often gave warning in advance for people to evacuate.

The 1981 Brinks armored car robbery which resulted in the deaths of two police officers included several former members of the Underground, but this took place six years after the group had disbanded.

The fact that their violence never killed anyone is one of the main reasons that the ones who did not participate in that robbery are free today.

So, you can say what you want, but I think that any hypothetical musing as to what they would have done had they been in power, has to be balanced against what they actually did. The men who ordered us into war in South East Asia have roughly a couple more million deaths to account for than the Weathermen. As in 2 million plus or minus a 500,000 or so to zero.

That said, as a pro-life Catholic, I will not vote for Barack Obama, despite my long opposition to the Iraq War. I toyed with the idea a few months ago, but his abortion stance is just too odious. His association with a former terrorist merely confirms this decision.

Scott Walker,

You seem not to have noticed -- or else you have chosen to ignore -- my attempt preemptively to counteract the change-of-subject I expected my post would bring.

Nothing about one's attitude toward the Weather Underground has any necessary implications for one's attitude toward Robert MacNamara, Henry Kissinger, or anyone else and nothing that Robert MacNamara Henry Kissinger or anyone else has done mitigates anything that has been done by the Weather Underground.

In any event, the particular crimes by the Weather Underground to which I referred were committed about 10 years after Robert MacNamara left office, about 5 years after Henry Kissinger did, and several years after the end of the Vietnam War.

If a person gets upset because his or her neighbor is killed in a mugging on the street, does it somehow follow from that that the person thinks it is (as you put it) "somehow alright" that, for example, Mao was responsible for starving 30 million Chinese to death in the early 1960's -- simply because that's not what's being talked about at the particular time?

No, it don't think it does.

And I mention Chairman Mao because honoring "evil old men with the blood of millions on their hands" was -- and for all I know still is -- exactly, precisely what the Weather Underground was (is?) all about.

RJohnson,

Again, I repeat, George W. Bush's or anyone else's (mis)deeds "are not what we're talking about right now."

Why do you want to change the subject?

What is it about *this* subject -- as opposed to something else -- that causes trouble for you?

What bearing does George W. Bush have on Barack Obama's or Bill or HIllary Clinton's relationship to members of the Weather Underground?

If hypothetically it happens that some current or future president of whom you disapprove politically chooses to pardon, say, Eric Rudolph for his violence against abortion clinics, will you then defend that move, on the grounds that Bill Clinton pardoned Susan Rosenberg and that Barack Obama was friends with William Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn?

*I* sure wouldn't do that.

Maybe we should require President Bush to release the list he wishes to pardon sometime in September, so we can appropriately analyze it for how John McCain might be connected to those folks.

A great idea which would require a Constitutional Amendment I believe. Perhaps give the President pardon powers till 60 days before his term ends?

After reading this post today, I was shocked to learn that the infamous Bill Ayers of whom you speak is the same person whose books are being widely used today to train teachers in colleges and universities across the U.S.A.

Exactly. That's why Obama's connections are both relevant and revealing.

America's liberal and cultural establishments, its universities, have a see-no-evil, forgive-all, no-enemies-to-the-left attitude towards leftist radicalism and leftist terrorism. You can be a Weatherman, a Black Panther, Red Army/Brigades, a Communist, a Maoist or any other variety of leftist nutburger -- and still get tenure, publish books, have laudatory bios, and even make up a national holiday. But Fox News ... anathema sit.

And it also explains why Obama and so much of the progressive commentariat were so surprised by and uncomprehending of Wright and "Bittergate." The air they breathe is one in which Wright, Dohrn and a certain Marxian pity for the false-consciousness-addled are part of the spectrum of respectability (being pro-life absolutely, positively is not).

RJohnson,

First of all, since I've never voted for a Republican, the Republicans cannot be "my party" and since I won't be voting for John McCain, he cannot be "my" nominee.

I'm glad to see that you've at least come a little bit closer to the realm of relevancy by changing your tack from George W. Bush -- who, last time I checked, is not running for president this year -- to John McCain, who is.

But I still don't understand why you find it more pressing to discuss criminal associates McCain *could* hypothetically have, instead of criminal associates both Clinton and Obama *do* actually have.

To shift the discussion to what (for now) can only be *imaginary* grounds still seems to me to be a changing of the subject from one you seem less inclined to talk about than you claim to be to one that I, for one, see no need to talk about, until such time as the scenario you mention becomes a *real* one, not a product of fevered dreams and wishful thinking on your part.

Still, let me humor you by saying that, yes, if it turns out John McCain has ties to murderers and/or domestic terrorists, I *do* think the Republicans should find another nominee and that they, like the Democrats, would have no problem finding a better one than the one they have now.

The fact you think the Ohio National Guard to be equivalent to the Weather Underground says it all.

Who murdered more Americans, the Ohio National Guard or the Weather Underground? I did not say the Ohio National Guard were terrorists. We are just playing the guilt by association game. Given the starting point I think my associations are pretty solid. Are any of the individual points in dispute? Please point out where I have made errors here. BTW, the Ohio National Guard does train in Texas in case there was any doubt about a linkage between Ohio and Texas. The WU blew up buildings vs ONG killing.

Steve

Who murdered more Americans, the Ohio National Guard or the Weather Underground?

The Ohio National Guard didn't "murder" anybody.

I am looking at my unabridged Random House and the Ohio National Guard seems to have committed murder by some definitions. To humor you make it killed. No way to deny that. McCain embraces killers of unarmed American students, by association.

Steve

You know, I would respond, but all you're doing is dropping those two names in re McCain in the hopes that somebody takes the bait and allows you to throw up dust on the issue of Obama's **established** and **close** ties to criminal terrorists and race-baiting nutburgers.

By all means, Steve .... make that argument. Argue publicly that everybody associated with the US military is a killer, and that the US military and National Guard are functionally analogous to the Weathermen.Only please, Brer Fox, please don't throw me into the briar patch.

And BTW ... the Ohio National Guard did nothing at all wrong in putting down an illegal demonstration on a campus that had rioters cheering arson against the fellow fascist pig ROTC Building earlier in the week.

"Close"

When you are close to someone do you go to there house once? Don't you go to dinner? Have them over? Make friends with their friends? Hang out? Just looking at this from afar, it looks like he met the guy and then stopped having individual meetings. Served on the same board for disadvantaged children? Hardly close.

I still think my linkages are just about as solid (stupid) as the Ayers/Obama links.

The sad part is that guilt by association is the norm now.

Steve

Orlando Bosch...a name Republicans might not want to have tossed around at the same time as Ayers. You see, Ayers was indeed a terrorist. But Bosch was as well, and he was responsible for the downing of a commercial flight, Cubana flight 455, in which over 70 people died.

He was released from a Venezuelan prison at the insistence of President George H.W. Bush, and brought to the United States. He remains free to this day, thanks to Bush 41 and his son, Jeb.

Now I know that everyone who is complaining about Obama's connection to terrorism was not around back when this was happening with Bosch. But I trust that those who were did all they could to stop President Bush from releasing a self-confessed and unrepentent terrorist into our population.

And what is this I hear about Rep. Rick Renzi of Arizona being indicted? Wasn't he on McCain's campaign staff?

Ah yes, FOX got that story.

embeds.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/02/23/indicted-congressman-to-leave-mccain-campaign/

"Sen. John McCain told a blogger conference call Friday that indicted Rep. Rick Renzi (R-AZ), who serves as one of his Arizona state co-chairs, will be resigning from his position in the coming days. Renzi was indicted on 35 criminal counts Friday including extortion, money laundering and wire fraud, related to an alleged illegal land deal and its cover-up."

This is the same Renzi that McCain said had "tenacity, honesty and integrity beyond reproach." Perhaps we need to take a look at McCain's judgement on the people he has around him.

www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/23/politics/politico/thecrypt/main3868409.shtml

Now, let's compare that with the Ayers/Obama connection again. They worked together on a non-profit board, Ayers gave Obama $200 for a state senate campaign, and they had dinner together at Ayers home. Bad judgement indeed, and one would think that a politician would not consort with someone like Ayers, an unrepentant criminal terrorist.

But then, there's McCain and his staff member, Charlie Black, who vouched for the character of a convicted felon and former brothel operator.

Poor judgement, once again. It makes you wonder who he would bring onto his staff at the White House.

Hmmm, Sig said (sarcastically) that if the government does it, it's not murder. You corrected her implying that the government doesnt murder. While I am guilty of hyperbole you are guilty of being wrong.

Steve

As for the shootings at Kent State, according to a Justice Department memo released in the Akron newspaper, there was a recommendation from the Attorney General that charges be filed against the individual guard members. The shootings were called "unnecessary, unwarranted, and inexcusable."

foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/kentstat.htm

There has since been evidence released of an order given to begin firing, which would counter the guardsmen's statements that they fired in panic.

www.alancanfora.com/?q=node/38

I remember the shooting and the days and months after the event. Many stories came out, and many of the indictments of the student protesters were eventually tossed out for lack of evidence or evidence fabrication. The recommendation to indict the guardsmen was followed, but a judge tossed the indictment due to lack of evidence.

Duncan MacIntyre

Hillary Clinton is loosely, and Barack Obama is more closely, associated with Bernadine Dohrn, who is very closely associated with Susan Rosenberg, who is as closely associated as anyone could be with the murder of three people, without having murdered those three people herself.

Good grief. How is Obama 'closely' associated with her? He's not even linked to her at all except through her husband!

Bernadine Dohrn, who's met Obama maybe once, never killed anyone her life, nor has never caused anyone to be killed. (Except those saps who blew themselves up.) She refused to testify at a trial of an old friend, and served a year in prison for it.

She, and her husband, also blew up a bunch of buildings. A lot of buildings. And no people.

Despite attempts to link the Brink robbery to the WU, there actually were more members of the Black Liberation Army involved, an organization which was actually still operating and hadn't shut down six years earlier, and the robbery itself managed to put enough of them in jail to shut it down. Blaming the WU is crazy, if you want to blame a revolutionary group, it was the BLA. Which has no links to Dohrn or Ayers. Those two had already turned themselves in and didn't know anything about the bank robbery, as they were being watched fairly closely by the FBI for leads to current fugitives and even if they had known how to contact them, they wouldn't have.

I know that screws with the right's little world where the Weather Underground is a violent domestic terrorist organization, but the fact remains that the WU managed to fight a fairly 'clean war', not getting anyone except themselves killed, which was a rather amazing trick. Unlike a lot of other radical groups.

That's not to say presidential candidates shouldn't cavort with them. Of course, Obama hasn't.

This will be my first and last comment to this blog.

I have read your book and have been a mere lurker here for several years. Since I share the perspective of Christopher Lasch, I often have found your ideas interesting and pointing to a possible path to an integration of parts of the Left and Right.

That said, your recent guilt-by-association slanders have been revolting beyond belief. Not since Nixon/Agnew (yes I go back that far)has there been an election cycle as *toxic* as this one. Surprisingly and sadly you have contributed your part.

Surprisingly and sadly you have contributed your part.

Shame on me for not realizing that Barack Obama is our deliverer, and that criticizing him is an act of cultural poisoning.

The way I see it, the continued presence of the Kissingers and the Ayerses serves as a reminder of the depth of what was wrong at the time. And the obsession with them, symptom of unwillingness to deal with the present.

If you find the Weather Underground appalling, how about a rereading of Iran/Contra or spend an hour looking at pictures of U.S.-sponsored torture.

Now you've gone and invoked Manning's Coronary...

Ayers getting off lightly and being accepted back into society probably had more to do with his father having a lot of money and high connections in society than it did with him being from the left. Not killing anyone probably didn't hurt.

It seems to me that Obama became involved with Ayers because Ayers was the man with local control over things important to Obama. Obama wanted to be a community organizer and improve the public schools, so he had to deal with the man who headed the foundation that worked to improve the public schools. Obama wanted to sit on the board of a charity that improved the lot of the poor in Chicago, so he sat on the board with another man who was prominent and powerful in Chicago.

It's not Obama's fault that Ayers was never prosecuted for his crimes. Obama should be commended for the work he's done for the public schools and the poor in Chicago. Perhaps Ayers should be commended for turning his life around and finding a way to work for change that's positive and productive.