Via Kunstler, we learn that the Royal Bank of Scotland is warning investors of a stock market crash by fall. And a key central banking institution warns of a crash of a magnitude not seen since the Great Depression. For...
Rod: "Then again, it's possible that people's perceptions are much worse than reality."
It's also possible Neil Irwin, the WaPo staff writer, doesn't know what he's talking about.
Irwin: "But the _reality_ is different. According to most broad measures of how the economy is doing, it's not all that grim."
But who exactly is measuring this "reality" and how?
Irwin: "The last time consumers were this miserable, in May 1980, the jobless rate was 7.5 percent and inflation was 14.4 percent. Now those numbers are 5.5 percent and 4.2 percent respectively."
Does Irwin know that the government has drastically changed the way it measures unemployment and inflation since 1980? And would anybody be surprised to learn that the new assumptions conveniently (for politicians) lower the unemployment and inflation rates?
John Williams at Shadow Government Statistics actually measures unemployment and inflation using the same methodologies as the ones used in 1980.
Look at the fourth table on the following page.
tinyurl.com/3bhh8b
If the CPI were measured as it was back in 1980, it would be nearly 12%!
This page does not provide a graph allowing us to do a straight 1980 vs. 2008 comparison of the jobless rate, but I believe a more accurate rate (which includes discouraged workers who are dropped from the rolls and not counted as unemployed) is closer to the green line. This figure is close to 10%! And, of course, the self-employed are not counted. Many of these people are "independent contractors" in construction and other industries who've experienced a big drop in orders.
So maybe it's no surprise "consumers" are as gloomy about the economy as they were in 1980.
Who are you going to believe? Government statistics and the naive Mr. Irwin, or your own lyin' eyes?
WhollyRoaminCatholic.com
June 18, 2008 2:48 PM
They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.
Aside: Nothing personal, Mr. Dreher. But I LOVE MANNING WEEK. Glad it's back.
JPL
June 18, 2008 2:50 PM
What fun activities do you have planned during your time off? Digging that bunker in the back yard? Maybe checking out sites for the family monastery? Or will it be the same old "wear a sandwich-board with DOOM written on it" as last year?
It is my sincere prayer that you work out all your "Fear and Loathing on Planet Earth" issues here, otherwise you would be one big downer on the Caribbean cruise.
Kidding aside, have fun!
Dianne
June 18, 2008 3:12 PM
Kind of off-topic, but how's that backyard garden doing, Rod? Photos? Learning experiences so far? Just wondering. Me, this is my laziest gardening year ever. I'm barely getting a handful of flowers planted, no veggies. I may not even bother with my usual few tomato plants this year. But I will make up for it by patronizing our outstanding local farmers' markets.
pyrrho
June 18, 2008 3:20 PM
I don't have time to get into this, but the rate cuts, special cash-infusing measures (Term Auction Facility, etc.), and unprecedented bailout measures (JP Morgan's takeover of Bears Stern) introduced by the Fed have not had much effect on easing the credit crisis other than buying time before a crash occurs. People in the know have been wearing Depends to bed for months now.
Just like the government statistics mentioned above, corporate statements are wildly overstated to the upside and deeply misleading. For example, the Financial Accounting Standards (FAS) essentially allow most money-center banks to hide their losses from the credit derivatives meltdown in a category called "Level 3 assets". Because there are no markets for trading these credit derivatives, which are very complex contracts between two or more parties, a market value for these assets cannot be determined (so-called "mark-to-market"). If there were such a market, they would be DEEPLY discounted because most market participants would worry about the solvency of the counterparties to these contracts AND they would have no idea how they actually work! Since there is no market, these institutions can essentially write their own computer programs to tell us what they are worth (so-called "marked-to-model" valuations). Anyone want to bet they're overly optimistic in their assumptions?
At any rate, these banks are on the hook for staggeringly large amounts of these things. Some banks are leveraged as much as 30-to-1 (debt-to-assets).
Now there's talk of allowing banks to hold these contracts on their books at historic (pre-crash) values (derisively referred to as "mark-to-make-believe). Even the bankers at some of the most impaired banks are howling in protest at this proposal because it will make the situation even less transparent and increase the already high levels of distrust!
Is it any wonder they won't lend to each other no matter how low the Fed drops rates? The game is over. Massive deleveraging is inevitable.
(This "zombification" of banks is the exact same sh*t that occurred in Japan in the 90s, resulting in non-action and a deflationary crisis that lasted over a decade.)
Is it any wonder these banks are now speculating in commodities? Where else are they going to go? (The foreign central banks haven't helped matters in the commodities markets by monetizing in order to maintain their dollar pegs -- but that's another story.)
This has been simplified to facilitate understanding, and I've left a lot unexplained. (And of course those of you who've read a textbook or two written before the drastic economic changes of the past decade will tell me I don't know what I'm taking about. I say bring it on.)
Rod Dreher
June 18, 2008 3:21 PM
Kind of off-topic, but how's that backyard garden doing, Rod? Photos? Learning experiences so far?
Tomatoes and cucumbers are on track to bring in a good crop. Basil is thriving, as is the flat-leaf parsley. Dill is dying -- too hot. Chard is underperforming. Jalapenos are doing well, but the arugula crashed and burned.
pyrrho
June 18, 2008 3:22 PM
There's also an impending commercial real estate bust. This is going to bring down a number of banks. Would you be surprised to learn that the FDIC is a self-insuring mechanism for banks and that it is massively underfunded?
pyrrho
June 18, 2008 3:31 PM
Lest you also accuse me, like Rod, of being excessively pessimistic, I have only two things to say.
(1) I'm not saying anything insiders don't privately worry about.
(2) My conclusions are data-driven, conform better to what we know about markets than the more optimistic scenarios, and are contrary to what I wanted to believe!
My conclusions made me angry and depressed for a long time. In the summer of 2005, I predicted a housing collapse of more than 30%. I was universally considered off my rocker, but the argument for the drop was airtight and bullet-proof. A lot of insiders, including mortage lenders themselves, appear to have agreed as they exercised their stock options EXACTLY when I thought they would, even as they talked up the market in public.
Christian
June 18, 2008 3:34 PM
Rod
This repetitive posting on an impending civilizational crash with repeated references to the small-minded Kunstler (whom I detest) is turning a once interesting and thought-provoking blog into something dull, pedestrian and not worth the time to read. The universe is not going to implode in upon itself anytime soon despite the challenges we may face.
pyrrho
June 18, 2008 3:45 PM
Christian:
I agree. Everybody knows we'll all be pooping gold nuggets by the end of the year, and President-Elect Lightworker will have achieved nirvikalpa samādhi.
WhollyRoaminCatholic.com
June 18, 2008 3:54 PM
You can poop gold tomorrow if you order off the menu.
Hell, you can have sparkle barf if you slug enough Goldschlager.
I'm just saying.
Scott Walker
June 18, 2008 4:48 PM
Arugula likes cooler weather. Try planting some in early September for a fall harvest. I would think that there are many crops that would do well in a Dallas area fall: peas, greens, crucifers and the like. Cold frames are also your friend.
I just finished World Made By Hand, and while it was a good yarn in parts, I'm still laughing at his absurd, overblown scenario.
SiliconValleySteve
June 18, 2008 5:38 PM
All this negative sentiment is a great contra-indicator. Last time the put/call ratio was this pessimistic (2003), I had a my best return ever. The sky was falling then too.
My prediction: Record S&P 500 average within on year. Probably sooner.
Keep bashing bears, it will give me more time to accumulate more capital into the markets.
scriblerus
June 18, 2008 6:45 PM
What I find really shocking about this prediction is that this economists' employer (Royal Bank of Scotland) just sold common stock rights to raise capital. So, first they sell shares and then they tell us the market is going in the toilet. Brilliant!
fbc
June 18, 2008 7:12 PM
I just finished World Made By Hand, and while it was a good yarn in parts, I'm still laughing at his absurd, overblown scenario.
What I couldn't figure out were the somber website photos that Kunstler had made of himself in costume for the book. That was way weird, and more than a little self-important/absurd if you ask me.
MH
June 18, 2008 9:34 PM
SiliconValleySteve, I tend to agree. When people are most optimistic is when there seems to be the greatest risk in the markets. When they're full of doom and gloom they get careful and risk seems to go down.
pyrrho
June 18, 2008 9:59 PM
(1) WhollyRoaminCatholic: Very funny about the gold burgers.
(2) Kunstler's long emergency is wicked overblown. Peak oil is going to be more like a long day in tight fitting clothes, or something like that. It won't be comfortable, but that's about it. We'll have plenty of time to adapt.
(3) US and UK decided today to close down that unregulated futures market I mentioned the other day (ICE, baby). I guess they're crazy like me and don't know what they're doing. We'll see in a month or two when the tide goes out whether the speculation party or the peak oil party is the party without a swiwmsuit.
(* That is, whether the current run-up in oil prices is due to speculation or peak oil. I'm in the peak oil party in the long run.)
Mark in Houston
June 18, 2008 10:16 PM
Seeing this headline reminds me of a cartoon I saw back in the 90s. The caption was "Alan Greenspan starts a stock market panic", and it was a picture of Greenspan in his pajamas, yawning and saying, "I'm really tired, I think I'm gonna crash!"
I guess you had to be there. It was pretty funny.
pyrrho
June 18, 2008 10:17 PM
Steve:
I've been a bear for years, but didn't believe there would be a deflation back in 2003. (Actually, I believed it would be narrowly averted and it was.) But we're now at the end of the line when it comes to overstimulating our economy with cheap and easy credit. The difference between now and 2003 is individuals, corporations and municipalities no longer have the ability to take on more debt even if it were offered to them. (And it is NOT being offered to them! Banks are cancelling lines of credit, raising lending standards, and charging much higher risk premiums. They won't even lend to each other!) Also, an easy money policy from the Fed would result in severe inflation now. (Look what's happening.) Back in 2003, we also had labor arbitrage in China to keep a lid on inflation. No more. Wages and costs are rising in China.
There has never been a time in the past when such a runup in unproductive debt (spent on current consumption instead of future income-generating investments) and margin borrowing hasn't resulted in a depression. Whether it is mild and chronic rather than severe remains to be seen. This is basic economics, folks.
We're probably near the start of the second downward leg in the current bear market, which is usually the steepest. (Look at charts of what happened between 1929-1932 ... if you know how.)
But feel free to continue engaging in magical thinking if you so desire.
Mark in Houston
June 18, 2008 10:23 PM
I haven't read World Made By Hand, because I have better ways of spending my time than reading crackpot theories masked in purple prose (that's also why I'm not familiar with the fine literature of Ayn Rand), but based on the reviews, it seems like there's one huge plot hole I can spot. Kunstler's dystopia is a world in which there is little travel or government beyond small areas. Even if the total industrial collapse that he posits (wishes for?) occurred, wouldn't the existence of roads allow for a fair amount of horse and buggy traffic?
After all, the Romans (and to a lesser degree the Hellenistic civilizations) were able to operate vast continental empires with boats, sandals and horses, with nothing more than good roads, rivers and coasts to navigate. So did, for that matter, all pre-industrial era civilizations. Why couldn't a post-apocalyptic American nation, or at the very least, a collection of such nations roughly based on the regions we currently have, just by using the road system we have and simple sailboat knowledge? I know that part of the idea is that average people don't have a lot of simple survival knowledge that our ancestors had, but how hard is it to send a few legions down an interstate with swords and shields to maintain order?
pb
June 18, 2008 11:43 PM
Even if the total industrial collapse that he posits (wishes for?) occurred, wouldn't the existence of roads allow for a fair amount of horse and buggy traffic?
Ever watch Mad Max? Or Jericho? I don't know if JHK is thinking along those lines, but maybe traveling alone by roads wouldn't be safe. Mass migration on the other hand may be a different story. Besides, the town at the center of the story is doing somewhat ok--why would people need to leave? JHK isn't writing The Road.
SiliconValleySteve
June 19, 2008 12:49 PM
Housing market in moderate correction in California. Number of homes sold at the same pace as during boom but at lower prices. My expectation is that will work through the rest of the US economy more slowly.
Slow growth but no recession. I thought we might dip barely into recession but now I don't think so. Could be neg growth this quarter but I don't expect it in the 3rd. Core inflation well under control because demand is stifled by high energy costs and a much more flexible economy than during the 70s. Interest rates reasonable and money supply not loose but slack.
S&P operating earnings decent and I'm guessing will improve as the stimulus enters the economy. Reasonable P/E ratios. Excellent if economy recovers even moderate strength well below normal trend-line growth of 3.5 to 4 percent. I expect 1 to 2 percent for current year, maybe doubling in 2009. Still below trendline.
Continued disinflationary pressure from 2nd and 3rd generation internet disintermediation. Should provide more than enough efficiency gains to make up for Chinese labor cost increases.
Growth in the whole energy patch basket of goods and services. Shoulda bought more HAL and SLB but I think most of the growth there is finished. I'm trimming now with a path out within 3 to 6 months. Throw in solar, conservation and other energy plays and some good stimulus there.
Add the weak sentiment, and it's off to the races.
No magical thinking here.
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Rod Dreher is an editorial columnist for the Dallas Morning News, and author of "Crunchy Cons" (Crown Forum), a nonfiction book about conservatives, most of them religious, whose faith and political convictions sometimes put them at odds with mainstream conservatives. The views expressed in this blog are his own.
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Rod: "Then again, it's possible that people's perceptions are much worse than reality."
It's also possible Neil Irwin, the WaPo staff writer, doesn't know what he's talking about.
Irwin: "But the _reality_ is different. According to most broad measures of how the economy is doing, it's not all that grim."
But who exactly is measuring this "reality" and how?
Irwin: "The last time consumers were this miserable, in May 1980, the jobless rate was 7.5 percent and inflation was 14.4 percent. Now those numbers are 5.5 percent and 4.2 percent respectively."
Does Irwin know that the government has drastically changed the way it measures unemployment and inflation since 1980? And would anybody be surprised to learn that the new assumptions conveniently (for politicians) lower the unemployment and inflation rates?
John Williams at Shadow Government Statistics actually measures unemployment and inflation using the same methodologies as the ones used in 1980.
Look at the fourth table on the following page.
tinyurl.com/3bhh8b
If the CPI were measured as it was back in 1980, it would be nearly 12%!
This page does not provide a graph allowing us to do a straight 1980 vs. 2008 comparison of the jobless rate, but I believe a more accurate rate (which includes discouraged workers who are dropped from the rolls and not counted as unemployed) is closer to the green line. This figure is close to 10%! And, of course, the self-employed are not counted. Many of these people are "independent contractors" in construction and other industries who've experienced a big drop in orders.
So maybe it's no surprise "consumers" are as gloomy about the economy as they were in 1980.
Who are you going to believe? Government statistics and the naive Mr. Irwin, or your own lyin' eyes?
They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.
Aside: Nothing personal, Mr. Dreher. But I LOVE MANNING WEEK. Glad it's back.
What fun activities do you have planned during your time off? Digging that bunker in the back yard? Maybe checking out sites for the family monastery? Or will it be the same old "wear a sandwich-board with DOOM written on it" as last year?
It is my sincere prayer that you work out all your "Fear and Loathing on Planet Earth" issues here, otherwise you would be one big downer on the Caribbean cruise.
Kidding aside, have fun!
Kind of off-topic, but how's that backyard garden doing, Rod? Photos? Learning experiences so far? Just wondering. Me, this is my laziest gardening year ever. I'm barely getting a handful of flowers planted, no veggies. I may not even bother with my usual few tomato plants this year. But I will make up for it by patronizing our outstanding local farmers' markets.
I don't have time to get into this, but the rate cuts, special cash-infusing measures (Term Auction Facility, etc.), and unprecedented bailout measures (JP Morgan's takeover of Bears Stern) introduced by the Fed have not had much effect on easing the credit crisis other than buying time before a crash occurs. People in the know have been wearing Depends to bed for months now.
Just like the government statistics mentioned above, corporate statements are wildly overstated to the upside and deeply misleading. For example, the Financial Accounting Standards (FAS) essentially allow most money-center banks to hide their losses from the credit derivatives meltdown in a category called "Level 3 assets". Because there are no markets for trading these credit derivatives, which are very complex contracts between two or more parties, a market value for these assets cannot be determined (so-called "mark-to-market"). If there were such a market, they would be DEEPLY discounted because most market participants would worry about the solvency of the counterparties to these contracts AND they would have no idea how they actually work! Since there is no market, these institutions can essentially write their own computer programs to tell us what they are worth (so-called "marked-to-model" valuations). Anyone want to bet they're overly optimistic in their assumptions?
At any rate, these banks are on the hook for staggeringly large amounts of these things. Some banks are leveraged as much as 30-to-1 (debt-to-assets).
Now there's talk of allowing banks to hold these contracts on their books at historic (pre-crash) values (derisively referred to as "mark-to-make-believe). Even the bankers at some of the most impaired banks are howling in protest at this proposal because it will make the situation even less transparent and increase the already high levels of distrust!
Is it any wonder they won't lend to each other no matter how low the Fed drops rates? The game is over. Massive deleveraging is inevitable.
(This "zombification" of banks is the exact same sh*t that occurred in Japan in the 90s, resulting in non-action and a deflationary crisis that lasted over a decade.)
Is it any wonder these banks are now speculating in commodities? Where else are they going to go? (The foreign central banks haven't helped matters in the commodities markets by monetizing in order to maintain their dollar pegs -- but that's another story.)
This has been simplified to facilitate understanding, and I've left a lot unexplained. (And of course those of you who've read a textbook or two written before the drastic economic changes of the past decade will tell me I don't know what I'm taking about. I say bring it on.)
Kind of off-topic, but how's that backyard garden doing, Rod? Photos? Learning experiences so far?
Tomatoes and cucumbers are on track to bring in a good crop. Basil is thriving, as is the flat-leaf parsley. Dill is dying -- too hot. Chard is underperforming. Jalapenos are doing well, but the arugula crashed and burned.
There's also an impending commercial real estate bust. This is going to bring down a number of banks. Would you be surprised to learn that the FDIC is a self-insuring mechanism for banks and that it is massively underfunded?
Lest you also accuse me, like Rod, of being excessively pessimistic, I have only two things to say.
(1) I'm not saying anything insiders don't privately worry about.
(2) My conclusions are data-driven, conform better to what we know about markets than the more optimistic scenarios, and are contrary to what I wanted to believe!
My conclusions made me angry and depressed for a long time. In the summer of 2005, I predicted a housing collapse of more than 30%. I was universally considered off my rocker, but the argument for the drop was airtight and bullet-proof. A lot of insiders, including mortage lenders themselves, appear to have agreed as they exercised their stock options EXACTLY when I thought they would, even as they talked up the market in public.
Rod
This repetitive posting on an impending civilizational crash with repeated references to the small-minded Kunstler (whom I detest) is turning a once interesting and thought-provoking blog into something dull, pedestrian and not worth the time to read. The universe is not going to implode in upon itself anytime soon despite the challenges we may face.
Christian:
I agree. Everybody knows we'll all be pooping gold nuggets by the end of the year, and President-Elect Lightworker will have achieved nirvikalpa samādhi.
You can poop gold tomorrow if you order off the menu.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24740175/
Hell, you can have sparkle barf if you slug enough Goldschlager.
I'm just saying.
Arugula likes cooler weather. Try planting some in early September for a fall harvest. I would think that there are many crops that would do well in a Dallas area fall: peas, greens, crucifers and the like. Cold frames are also your friend.
Gosh, WhollyRoaminCatholic!!! I'm blushing now, really. :)
I just finished World Made By Hand, and while it was a good yarn in parts, I'm still laughing at his absurd, overblown scenario.
All this negative sentiment is a great contra-indicator. Last time the put/call ratio was this pessimistic (2003), I had a my best return ever. The sky was falling then too.
My prediction: Record S&P 500 average within on year. Probably sooner.
Keep bashing bears, it will give me more time to accumulate more capital into the markets.
What I find really shocking about this prediction is that this economists' employer (Royal Bank of Scotland) just sold common stock rights to raise capital. So, first they sell shares and then they tell us the market is going in the toilet. Brilliant!
I just finished World Made By Hand, and while it was a good yarn in parts, I'm still laughing at his absurd, overblown scenario.
What I couldn't figure out were the somber website photos that Kunstler had made of himself in costume for the book. That was way weird, and more than a little self-important/absurd if you ask me.
SiliconValleySteve, I tend to agree. When people are most optimistic is when there seems to be the greatest risk in the markets. When they're full of doom and gloom they get careful and risk seems to go down.
(1) WhollyRoaminCatholic: Very funny about the gold burgers.
(2) Kunstler's long emergency is wicked overblown. Peak oil is going to be more like a long day in tight fitting clothes, or something like that. It won't be comfortable, but that's about it. We'll have plenty of time to adapt.
(3) US and UK decided today to close down that unregulated futures market I mentioned the other day (ICE, baby). I guess they're crazy like me and don't know what they're doing. We'll see in a month or two when the tide goes out whether the speculation party or the peak oil party is the party without a swiwmsuit.
(* That is, whether the current run-up in oil prices is due to speculation or peak oil. I'm in the peak oil party in the long run.)
Seeing this headline reminds me of a cartoon I saw back in the 90s. The caption was "Alan Greenspan starts a stock market panic", and it was a picture of Greenspan in his pajamas, yawning and saying, "I'm really tired, I think I'm gonna crash!"
I guess you had to be there. It was pretty funny.
Steve:
I've been a bear for years, but didn't believe there would be a deflation back in 2003. (Actually, I believed it would be narrowly averted and it was.) But we're now at the end of the line when it comes to overstimulating our economy with cheap and easy credit. The difference between now and 2003 is individuals, corporations and municipalities no longer have the ability to take on more debt even if it were offered to them. (And it is NOT being offered to them! Banks are cancelling lines of credit, raising lending standards, and charging much higher risk premiums. They won't even lend to each other!) Also, an easy money policy from the Fed would result in severe inflation now. (Look what's happening.) Back in 2003, we also had labor arbitrage in China to keep a lid on inflation. No more. Wages and costs are rising in China.
There has never been a time in the past when such a runup in unproductive debt (spent on current consumption instead of future income-generating investments) and margin borrowing hasn't resulted in a depression. Whether it is mild and chronic rather than severe remains to be seen. This is basic economics, folks.
We're probably near the start of the second downward leg in the current bear market, which is usually the steepest. (Look at charts of what happened between 1929-1932 ... if you know how.)
But feel free to continue engaging in magical thinking if you so desire.
I haven't read World Made By Hand, because I have better ways of spending my time than reading crackpot theories masked in purple prose (that's also why I'm not familiar with the fine literature of Ayn Rand), but based on the reviews, it seems like there's one huge plot hole I can spot. Kunstler's dystopia is a world in which there is little travel or government beyond small areas. Even if the total industrial collapse that he posits (wishes for?) occurred, wouldn't the existence of roads allow for a fair amount of horse and buggy traffic?
After all, the Romans (and to a lesser degree the Hellenistic civilizations) were able to operate vast continental empires with boats, sandals and horses, with nothing more than good roads, rivers and coasts to navigate. So did, for that matter, all pre-industrial era civilizations. Why couldn't a post-apocalyptic American nation, or at the very least, a collection of such nations roughly based on the regions we currently have, just by using the road system we have and simple sailboat knowledge? I know that part of the idea is that average people don't have a lot of simple survival knowledge that our ancestors had, but how hard is it to send a few legions down an interstate with swords and shields to maintain order?
Even if the total industrial collapse that he posits (wishes for?) occurred, wouldn't the existence of roads allow for a fair amount of horse and buggy traffic?
Ever watch Mad Max? Or Jericho? I don't know if JHK is thinking along those lines, but maybe traveling alone by roads wouldn't be safe. Mass migration on the other hand may be a different story. Besides, the town at the center of the story is doing somewhat ok--why would people need to leave? JHK isn't writing The Road.
Housing market in moderate correction in California. Number of homes sold at the same pace as during boom but at lower prices. My expectation is that will work through the rest of the US economy more slowly.
Slow growth but no recession. I thought we might dip barely into recession but now I don't think so. Could be neg growth this quarter but I don't expect it in the 3rd. Core inflation well under control because demand is stifled by high energy costs and a much more flexible economy than during the 70s. Interest rates reasonable and money supply not loose but slack.
S&P operating earnings decent and I'm guessing will improve as the stimulus enters the economy. Reasonable P/E ratios. Excellent if economy recovers even moderate strength well below normal trend-line growth of 3.5 to 4 percent. I expect 1 to 2 percent for current year, maybe doubling in 2009. Still below trendline.
Continued disinflationary pressure from 2nd and 3rd generation internet disintermediation. Should provide more than enough efficiency gains to make up for Chinese labor cost increases.
Growth in the whole energy patch basket of goods and services. Shoulda bought more HAL and SLB but I think most of the growth there is finished. I'm trimming now with a path out within 3 to 6 months. Throw in solar, conservation and other energy plays and some good stimulus there.
Add the weak sentiment, and it's off to the races.
No magical thinking here.
Post a Comment
By submitting these comments, I agree to the beliefnet.com terms of service, rules of conduct and privacy policy (the "agreements"). I understand and agree that any content I post is licensed to beliefnet.com and may be used by beliefnet.com in accordance with the agreements.