Radovan Karadzic, war criminal
Tuesday July 22, 2008
Categories: War
The capture of the Serbian war criminal Radovan Karadzic brought to mind this passage from a 2003 National Review essay on military chaplains I wrote: The shooting had long since stopped by the time Richard Kent arrived for his tour...
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About Crunchy Con
Rod Dreher is an editorial columnist for the Dallas Morning News, and author of "Crunchy Cons" (Crown Forum), a nonfiction book about conservatives, most of them religious, whose faith and political convictions sometimes put them at odds with mainstream conservatives. The views expressed in this blog are his own.
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Rod, I'm curious about your sense of the news that Karadzic was abetted in his hiding by the Serbian Orthodox church, who let him hide out in churches and monastaries?
The chaplain is shocked that God allowed genocide? Well, obviously, he's never read the Bible. God not only allowed genocide, he commanded it several times, ordering Israel to wipe out neighboring tribes. He sometimes made sure to add that they not hesitate to slaughter infants and pregnant women.
The Balkan wars do present a theological challenge for people of faith to engage. I'd recommend the work of Miroslav Volf, an evangelical Christian theologian from Croatia who's done a lot of writing on grace, forgiveness, and peace making.
To follow Jesus faithfully in such a context really does speak profoundly.
DANIEL:
It's crucial to look for media reports that note the complexity of the Orthodox leadership in that region. Reports that say he hid in a monastery or was helped by "the church" need to take into account that the actions of a local leader or priest are not the same thing as the actions of the actual Serbian hierarchy. I have no doubt that, in a region were dozens of priceless monasteries are being destroyed, that there are Orthodox leaders who betray their church's teachings to strike back. But the role of religious leaders in the wider region, leaders at the top level, has actually been quite admirable -- Catholics, Orthodox, Muslims and Jews, included.
You might want to check out this column I wrote during the conflict that shows some of that:
http://tmatt.gospelcom.net/column/1999/04/07/
Also see this:
http://tmatt.gospelcom.net/column/2001/02/21/
The goal is not to condone the sins of the guilty. The goal is to not to blame an entire institution for the sins of a few. If the facts show that there were bishops and archbishops involved, then it will be fair to assign wider blame.
Reports that say he hid in a monastery or was helped by "the church" need to take into account that the actions of a local leader or priest are not the same thing as the actions of the actual Serbian hierarchy.
Assuming the hierarchy didn't know that the local leaders or priests were cooperating. The hands of the church--including the hierarchy--are not terribly clean in Serbia, all apologists aside.
Okay, menominee, how about links to the posts where our host depicted Muslims as "...Islamofascist overbreeding subhumans." I can see that you have been reading your Goebbels lately. I expect, therefore, no links to the offending posts, merely a repetition of the slander.
I've disagreed with Rod on occasion, but have never felt the need to simply get out the manure bucket and start spraying.
Daniel, care to share your pipeline into the inner working of the Serbian hierarchy? Shoot, I'm Orthodox, and I have no clue at all about which hierarchs knew or didn't know about which priests in which parishes were allegedly hiding this murderer. Oops, make that "alleged murderer". I think he's guilty as charged, but let's wait for the trial, shall we?
Once again, please check the actual actions of the patriarchs in their roles in the interfaith efforts to stop the violence.
Yes, you will see bishops marching in demonstrations on issues of Serbian nationalism. But you will also see them in efforts, with Islamic leaders, Catholics and rabbis, to promote non-violence and to oppose the regime behind the violence.
In other words, the Serbian Church does tend to oppose the break-up of Serbia. But the patriarchs also opposed the ethnic cleaning and some were jailed and beaten for opposing the regime behind the violence.
Sorry for the repeat posts.
Here is a link to another column that I wrote that actually offers some details on the interfaith peace efforts -- Catholic, Orthodox, Jewish and Muslim -- against the Milosevic regime and use of violence in the region.
http://tmatt.gospelcom.net/column/1999/06/09/
The top of that 1999 piece.
***
It's tricky for anyone to sign a document in Belgrade these days with the word "peace" in the title.
But back on April 19th, while air-raid sirens screamed overhead, an interfaith quartet of shepherds released a gripping statement to their Yugoslavian flocks and to the world.
"Even as evil cannot be overcome by evil, so peace and harmony cannot be attained by war," said the seven-paragraph "Appeal for Peace," released from the Serbian Orthodox Patriarchate. "To be a peacemaker is the greatest duty and most noble obligation of every man. That is why we are not afraid to be the first to extend the hand of peace to one another. In the name of our future and our common life together, we pray to God and appeal to all men of good will to endeavor with maximum effort to end this war and resolve the problems by peaceful means."
The document was signed by Serbian Patriarch Pavle, Catholic Archbishop Franc Perko, Mufti Hamdija Jusufspahic and Rabbi Isak Asiel, all of Belgrade. Together, they called for all bombing and fighting to cease and for the return of refugees to their war-ravaged homes - both the ethnic Albanians fleeing the paramilitary units of Slobodan Milosevic or Serbs fleeing the Kosovo Liberation Army.
This cry for broader negotiations in the Balkans followed a "Kosovo Peace and Tolerance" declaration released on March 18 in Vienna. This longer, more detailed document was signed by a quartet of Orthodox, Catholic, Muslim and Jewish leaders from Kosovo.
The polemicist's enemies are always absolutely wrong, demonically malicious, irrational, and no situational, psychological, or historical explanation can suffice for their evil.
The polemicist's friends are rarely wrong. And when they are wrong it will be sorrowfully so and in relative ways compared the True Enemy, with the best of intentions and understandable motives, all underpinned by historical realities and forces, facts and situations they were dragged into and could not resist acting upon.
Sorry, anonymous braveheart of 5:42. I have read all of those posts, and do not see what it is I am supposed to see. It's interesting, though, that you and menominee so readily see Rod the wannabee Nazi where I see Rod the viewer with alarm. That alarm may or may not be justified in particular cases, but it is in any case not the same thing as the claptrap menominee attributes to our host. Projection, maybe?
Rod, it's impossible to avoid the suspicion that your conversion to the Eastern Church may be influencing your change of heart about Serb violence. When you were a Catholic, were you more sympathetic to the Croats than you are now? It seems a bit overreaching to seek rationales for the atrocities committed by the Serbs in the 1990s.
Why are the serbs the only ones being blamed for everything?
It was the Croatians and the muslims 2.
not 2 mention the americans should have just stopped interferring with us.
but Radovan didn't kill them.
it was other serbs.
he is basically being wronglyfully accused.
but it wasn't just the serbs.
in other words..croatians,muslims, and serbs.
we all killed each other.
Long live SERBIA!!
After 13 to long years the SOB has been captured...and then because of a tip. He's been right in front of everyone for those 13 years. Maybe he will be "shot and killed while trying to escape" but if not, I hope he suffers while being put to death. It won't bring back the victims, but revenge can be sweet.
I've long since concluded that libs hate Christians far more than they fear Muslims.
I've long since concluded that libs hate Christians far more than they fear Muslims.
Because we point out that Orthodox Christian backed leaders committed ethnic cleansing and genocide targeting Muslims in Kosovo and Bosnia-Herzogvenia? Are we supposed to ignore ethnic cleansing and genocide because it is committed by Orthodox Serbians or Catholic Rwandans?
Without taking a position pro or contra the cause of Radovan Karadžić, I would just say that if as is said the average American DA can indict a ham sandwich, the PC Eurocrat apparatchiks at the Hague could indict the testicles of a half-eaten escargot.
The demonization of the Serbs is de rigueur in Eurabia these days, the mollycoddling of the Mohammedans mandaté. Few Balkan hands are unblemished of Balkan blood. The Serbs have seen their country eviscerated to mollify the Moslem Albanian insurgents. What will be the next demand of the craven Christ killers of the Hague, that Carthage of the North? Another Christian sacrifice to the Moloch of Mecca?
Is Karadžić to be the scapegoat for the European atonement for the Jewish genocide?
I've long since concluded that libs hate Christians far more than they fear Muslims.
Frankly, you're asking us to pretend to a difference in degree of inhumanity under pretext of religion that simply isn't as large as you imagine.
Roland, are you denying that ethnic cleansing took place at the hands of Serbians?
Daniel: are you denying that ethnic cleansing took place at the hands of Serbians?
No.
My point was otherwise directed.
"it's impossible to avoid the suspicion that your conversion to the Eastern Church may be influencing your change of heart about Serb violence." Pentimento
TR: He was actually a bit tougher than I expected. It's natural when you learn more about a situation your view evolves, but also that converts are willing to defend their brethren in arms. Unlike many, mostly Slavic, EOCs I've seen he doesn't seem to be defending the Serbs or saying they were the real victims in the 1990s.
The downside of that admirable quality is it reminds me of an uncharitable skepticism of him I've at times had. That being that I think it's possible that in time he'll grow disillusioned with the EOC, which has its own history of excesses and abuses. I find this unfair of me, especially as there'd really be no place else for a Pre-Reformationist to go. (Well maybe Coptic or Assyrian or something, but their churches are even harder to find)
Jillian's point at 2:38 P.M. was on target, Rod. For some mixture of geopolitical reasons the US ended up siding against the Serb butchers, and in customary fashion for US foreign policy, we ended up siding with some unsavory Muslims and Catholic Croats. Consequently, we hear much more about Serbian atrocities than the others, and we hear almost nothing about our support for those others. That's how propaganda works.
Now it just so happens that the Serbs, who were the biggest killers, were also Orthodox Christians, so you managed to be fairminded about the whole thing. You rightly point out the complexities and the atrocities committed by all sides. Somehow I doubt that would be the case if the Muslims had been the biggest killers and had received most of the US press attention. Then I don't think we'd be hearing much from you about moral complexities.
I'm a lousy writer. I'm not sure my point was clear, so I'll try again.
In reality the Serbs were the ones who committed the most atrocities, but all three factions were guilty of major war crimes. In fact the US supported a Croat military action which resulted in largescale ethnic cleansing of Serbs. And as for the Muslims, the KLA was a terrorist group. But for reasons I don't fully understand, the US ended up opposed to the Serbs. Consequently their crimes got most of the bad press, and the crimes of our allies (and our complicity in some cases) got little press. We may also have been guilty of war crimes ourselves in 1999.
Rod doesn't have any difficulty seeing the moral complexities here and I can't help but suspect it's because the Christians (especially the Orthodox Serbs) were the biggest killers and he can't deny their crimes. If it had been the case that the Muslims had been killing the most people, or for that matter if it had only been the case that the US had sided with the Serbs and Muslim atrocities, though lesser, had received most of the press attention, then I don't think Rod would be talking about moral complexities. He'd be talking about the evil of the Muslims.
'In reality the Serbs were the ones who committed the most atrocities'
This lies were spread to somehow justify NATO bombings of Serbia, i believe.
Where was justice when journalists described enemies of Serbs as meek sheeps, innocent civilians, and when Albanians or NATO attacked Serbs it was just 'aircraft hit targets'. if target was a passengers train or the same civillians, that was not important to say. On fotos the same - Serbs only ugly men with guns, Albanians - crying women and children. What a shame. Now it turnes out that numbers of Serbian atrocities were horribly exaggerated and 'mass graves' full of thousands of genocide victims were fiction.
NATO and Albanians are not less war criminals as Serbs.
Rod,
For a start why not refer to Karadzic as an alleged war criminal rather than as a war criminal? or is the planned trial merely to be a show trial?
Not ever report about what happened in Bosnia provides a full and accurate account of events.
Before accepting reports on what happened at face value, take a look at what Lord Owen has said about the manipulation of the press by Bosnian Muslim forces during his time in the region.
Personally, I think our first priority should be to make sure that the trial he gets is a fair trial.
(For what it's worth, I've spent a lot of time amongst the Bosnian Serbs. I'm a US expat (not expatriot), and have been based in Europe for many years.)
Tom
Rod, it's impossible to avoid the suspicion that your conversion to the Eastern Church may be influencing your change of heart about Serb violence. When you were a Catholic, were you more sympathetic to the Croats than you are now? It seems a bit overreaching to seek rationales for the atrocities committed by the Serbs in the 1990s.
I understand the suspicion, but it's unwarranted. I started changing my mind about the Balkan situation years ago, by reading more about the history of the region, and realizing that the idea of trying to find good guys there is hopeless. At some point in history, you can find that any one of the main religious/ethnic groups there -- Muslims, Catholic Croats, Serbian Orthodox -- behaved barbarically. I was Catholic when I began to change my views on the situation there, and was grieved to read more about what the Croats did in cohort with the Nazis during the war. In that case, the Serbs were heroic. And it doesn't take much reading about the Ottoman colonization of the Balkans, and coming to learn about how they treated Christians, to understand how wicked the Muslims -- the victims of the 1990s -- could be when they were on top. Learning about the KLA atrocities against Serbian churches and monasteries -- all of which began taking place before I even though about Orthodoxy -- also shook up my settled worldview. And so it goes.
and realizing that the idea of trying to find good guys there is hopeless.
The fact that there may not be any "good guys" doesn't mean there shouldn't be condemnation of 1990s ethnic cleansing and genocide. Without some moral compass on condemning atrocities, suddenly torture in Gitmo becomes justified, the killing of Palestinians in the West Bank elicits a yawn, and we really have no room to condemn Muslim extremism in the context of world history and the treatment of Muslims in--say--Iraq and Iran by the West.
And it doesn't take much reading about the Ottoman colonization of the Balkans, and coming to learn about how they treated Christians, to understand how wicked the Muslims -- the victims of the 1990s -- could be when they were on top. Learning about the KLA atrocities against Serbian churches and monasteries -- all of which began taking place before I even though about Orthodoxy -- also shook up my settled worldview. And so it goes.
Exactly.
Sheesh, of course that should have been "understood", not "understand".
Isn't there something of a slippery slope, however, in saying Ottaman colonization of the Balkans somehow provides context for genocide and ethnic cleansing and therefore it wasn't nearly as horrible as everyone says? That kind of reasoning is actually similar to the justifications used by some in the U.S. after 9/11 when they said, "Given the history of Muslim oppression and U.S. intervention, the attacks on innocent civilians was just the latest act between bad players and therefore we shouldn't be all that shocked."
I imagine the 800,000 victims of ethnic cleansing and genocide at the hands of Serbians--who were Orthodox--would not be nearly as impressed by the desire to add context to genocide.
No, I don't think it's a slippery slope. I'm merely repeating historical facts. History has a way of influencing how nations and cultures play out.
Both Serbs and Muslims paid the price.
No, I don't think it's a slippery slope. I'm merely repeating historical facts. History has a way of influencing how nations and cultures play out.
Both Serbs and Muslims paid the price.
No, I don't think it's a slippery slope. I'm merely repeating historical facts. History has a way of influencing how nations and cultures play out.
Both Serbs and Muslims paid the price.
No, I don't think it's a slippery slope. I'm merely repeating historical facts. History has a way of influencing how nations and cultures play out.
Both Serbs and Muslims paid the price.
For those wanting to gain some insight into the passions of the region, I'd recommend reading Ivo Andric's (Nobel prize 1961) novel - The Bridge Over The Drina.
I would also add that Bill Clinton did less than a stellar job in handling the whole situation.
Apologies again for my multiple posts.
New post on the news coverage of this up at GetReligion:
http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3736
To call a post-Communist thug regime "the Orthodox" is a bit much. Milosevic and Co. jailed and beat up all their share of Orthodox bishops, too.
The religious leaders in the region -- in the four major faiths -- all took dangerous stands to call for non-violence.
New post on the news coverage of this up at GetReligion:
http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3736
To call a post-Communist thug regime "the Orthodox" is a bit much. Milosevic and Co. jailed and beat up all their share of Orthodox bishops, too.
The religious leaders in the region -- in the four major faiths -- all took dangerous stands to call for non-violence.
That's a good point. There was a very strong ethnic and nationalistic element in all this that sometimes gets lost in the media's desire to make religion the source of all war.
"Yup. The whole conflict, especially in Kosovo, cannot be understand without taking into account the conquests of the Ottoman Turks in the region."
Perhaps, but I don't think anyone from the civilized world can in good faith justify the brutality of the Serbs in the 1990s by pointing to what the Ottoman Turks did to them more than three centuries ago.
Pentimento, no one is attempting to justify Serbian atrocities, but knowing their history helps one to understand what they did and the motivations and justifications that Serbians claim for those actions.
The point I wish to make is that brutal conflict is a fair description of all of the history of the region. Every group that participated had its share of claim to both victim and criminal (by modern standards) status. Please note that I do not include the Ottomans in that description, they being an outside "group" who invaded and conquered the region... one of its few periods of calm and prosperity, I would add, the other prominent example being the reign of Tito.
"But in the East among Byzantine Emperors, who were Christian, war continued strictly in accordance with the ancient barbaric tradition. Basil, the Bulgar-Slayer,put out the eyes of 15,00 prisoners..." The Roots of Violence Fr. Miceli page.183
"As Europe developed its national states, it gradually established a humane code of waging war.......The fundamental principle of this code was that hostilities between civilized peoples must be limited to the armed forces actually engaged." The Roots of Violence Fr. Miceli page 184
The real problem is not religion or God Who permits or does not permit certain events, but us. Tony Snow who recently died of cancer reminded us of an important point. We have a fallen nature and because of this, we constantly demontrate it through our actions. God created us to love Him first and love our neighbours as we do ourselves. Unfortunately, many people forget these important commandments.
Truthfully, some tend to blame God for atrocities that humans commit against each other. It is not His fault, but rather the fallen nature of man, who at times succumb to evil tendencies. We have free will, a choice to do good or evil. If man chooses evil it is his fault and not God's.
I find it very un Christlike to brand a whole nation as evil because of the actions of a few wicked & militiaristic men.Karadjic & Mladic orchestrated terrible massacres. The Serbian people are not all like that. Not all Germans committed war crimes in WW11. Only those who had a propensity to disregard the Word and teaching that Christ left with us. Atrocities were committed against Serbian civilians in Bosnia at the start of the war, and throughout the duration of the war. I was in Serbia for a short time at the start of the war. War is a tool for evil, and brings out the worst in the best of people, regardless of ethnicity or religion. We should all try to educate each other in tolerance, acceptance, love of our fellow humans, and above all, love of God and His Way, as taught by Our Lord, Jesus Christ.
For me, one of the most difficult things to understand is how completely PERSONAL God is with each of his individual children. WE look at events such as these as group things, with each soul's motivation the same as the others' involved--at least on each "side"-- but our Lord is dealing with each one in a directly personal way, knowing how and why each was in that situation, why each acted as he did, dealing with it because of their own life's experience. That is why we are not to judge others, I believe, as we cannot possibly have such knowledge--though we can and must the actions that take place. It is all beyond our understanding but we must learn never to condemn a "group"--a nation, ethnic group, religion, etc. as a whole since they are made up of individuals, each of whom has his own soul and story. Noreen said above that war... brings out the worst in the best of people. True but it also brings out the best in some. We must remember that our blessed Lord knows each of us to the core, continues to love us and offer His mercy until our last breath--and if Saint Faustina is correct, even after that breath. God be with us all in these times amd enable us to "give bread and joy" to others, as the old grace before meals used to say.
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