Bullying and the wounds of childhood
As I mentioned in a thread below, my Sunday column about school bullying and its lasting impact is now online. Here's how it ends: What happened to me was nothing compared with what was done to those boys at Sunnyvale,...
That made my stomach churn. Horrifying. That's amazing Rod, those were some chaperones you had.
When I was in middle school I paid a bully a weekly fee for "protection". I think it came to most of my allowance, just a few bucks but a lot for me. He beat up weak kids before and after school he didn't like. He was a monster and I hate him to this day.
This racketeering started after he terrorized me by threatening to beat me up after school with very ominous warnings designed to make me pizz my pants like "...and there's nothing you can do about it" and "if you run I'll beat you up every day" or something to that effect.
I was a wimpy kid and he was huge so I don't feel ashamed whatsoever, nor did I then either. As soon as I got out of the building after school I just ran like the dickens, not looking back, just ran home as fast as I could. On several occasions he pursued me but he never caught me, and I always made sure to leave right away with the waves of other students so he couldn't just snag me at the exit. I never went to the bathroom during the school day, ever.
Anyway, once as I was running away, to my shock I see my mother driving in her car towards the school, she was going to pick me up to take me to some appointment or something. I ran to the car and got in and right behind me over this hill came the kid but of course he stopped and he just grinned looking, and my mom gave him a really long dirty look.
That evening-- just like in that "Christmas Story" movie except I hadn't beat up my bully, I knew my mom would tell my dad and then of course she did and my dad was none too pleased... at me. He was very ashamed of me and that I didn't stand up for myself and all that and he made sure I knew it (this is 20 years ago, before people were all considerate of whatever psychological scars they might inflict on their children.) But this changed the relationship I had with my father forever. I was humiliated. Just like in the movie "The Breakfast Club", when the jock tells the story how it occurred to him after beating up some kid that his victim had to go home and tell his father what happened, and that that was the worst thing about whatever he did to the poor kid.
To make things even worse, my mom somehow gossiped this to her friends and then every time they had friends come over or when we'd go to their houses the men would tease me about it.
I wish I could tell you this has a happy ending where I gloriously beat up everybody who had wronged me restoring my reputation. No such luck. And I don't care. I left that town right after high school and I've done very well for myself in life. That bully punk is probably pumping gas somewhere, in jail, or heck mayme he's a CEO somewhere, frat boy network and all that.
Great column in a recent string. Congrats.
I learned early on that my only way to combat bullies was not with competitive strength which I could not beat....but brain power. So I did things as follows:
When they shot hopps barefoot after lunch in the gym, I placed a strategic thumb tack (or two) and placed bets as a bookie among my fellow bullied buddies as to who would 'contact' the thumbtack first, etc. When button down shirts became the rage I would remove and quickly re-sew the collar buttons on... three inches clock wise so when they put them on to go to the sock hop they looked incredibly stupid. During S.A.T. tests I turned to the one that tormented me the worst and shouted, "For the 10th time, stop asking me what the answer to #12 is!" In which case he was removed from the test screaming.
I put Bermuda grass seed in the fertilizer they used on their parents' yard creating a horror story for the pampered brats when the entire flower beds became clogged with the much hated Bermuda that is almost impossible to remove. I injected with a kitchen syringe horrible cheap female cologne so that they smelled to high heaven like street walkers, repulsing alrse, nauseated when they opened their lunch.
Ah youth is when I earned the nickname, "The Mongoose".
My experiences growing up are not completely unrelated to my decision not to have children of my own.
I'm glad this issue is now being taken seriously. There is plenty of anectodal evidence that bullied children become problem-beset (or problem-causing) adults. Didn't one of the great poets write "The child is the father of the man?" I don't know the original context of that line, but it rings true here.
Rod, while I don't want to raise any ugly memories or open old wounds, do you know why the two mothers who were chaperones during the incident you mentioned ignored your situation? That was truly foul behavior on their part, and I have to wonder if there was some reason for their actions. Not raasons that in any way justified their actions, mind you, I'm thinking quite the opposite - like whether these parents had a beef with your parents, were parents of kids that were trying to curry favor with your bullies, or something like that.
If you really don't want to discuss the issue, I'd understand, but it seems like there had to be a reason for their actions, more than just lazy chaperoning.
Mark, the truthful answer is: "I don't know." I come from a small town, and I was friends with the children of both these adults. In fact, one was the mother of one of my best friends, in whose home I'd spent many a night in my youth.
The only explanation that made sense to me was that this cool crowd had made a point on this trip of treating these middle-aged moms like they were part of the clique. There we all were, at the beach having a good time, and these teenagers were calling the moms by their first names -- which, coming from a small Southern town in 1982 was a real transgression for us all. These moms welcomed it. My guess is that these two women didn't want to jeopardize their newfound standing with the teenage in-crowd. I'd also guess -- and that's all it is -- that they felt uncomfortable sitting there watching the teenagers do this to me, so they left.
I never said a word to them about it. I think my parents stopped patronizing the small business of one of the moms, but I really don't know what, if anything, they said either. I would be surprised if either of those moms today had any idea what they did.
"My guess is that these two women didn't want to jeopardize their newfound standing with the teenage in-crowd."
That sounds believable. Foul, but believable. I've heard of cases where the parents want to be peers and actually succumb to teenage peer pressure, rather than provide a safe haven from it. Thanks for the response.
Dealing with bullies can mark a person for life for ill, or for good. I was the smallest kid in the school but I will never forget the look on the bully's face when he heard my knife click open. Once you have instilled that kind of terror into someone who thought he would frighten you, you never fear anyone.
Of course as we grow older our weapons become words, style and well-paid investigators which make cops leave the room when we walk in. In fact I will never forget the fun that I had with a part-time suburban cop during my 50th birthday party. He said that the only reason he was sticking around (he was the bouncer in club we were having the party in) was that he was watching a friend of mine who is an academic and a bit, well, odd. I just laughed and told him that he had nothing to worry about, the man was a feature writer for the Chicago Tribune.
You should have seen the look on the poor cop's face. He could not leave fast enough and the funny thing about that was that the real reporter for the Tribune was somebody else sitting a couple of tables away.
I was a new Cub Scout attending one of my first meetings at some local hall. After the meeting, an older kid told me I had to be initiated into the Scouts if I wanted to stay. He took me into a little room, closed the door and made me lay on a table, sans pants, face down. He then started to beat my behind viciously with a heavy wooden paddle until anger and pain overcame my fear. I jumped off the table, ran home, and never returned; saving myself from what I think the sadistic sob really had in mind.
I learned later that he was a neighborhood weirdo/bully, and that he had no official capacity with the Cub Scouts; probably just a volunteer helper. My anger about leaving the Cub Scouts (especially after the sacrifice my Mom had made buying my uniform) and my shame grew until the day I met him again, on the street this time, and discovered that those two emotions could overcome size and age. He paid dearly; that day and another time I caught him alone. I was wrong, but maybe too young to know it.
The experience transformed me into someone who, all my life, has had to struggle with my Catholic belief of forgiveness when I see or hear about homosexual abuse of the young or torture for political purposes by Communists or a Saddam Hussein. What angers me even more are the cowardly liberals (think Vietnam) who in the media, Congress, religious communities, ACLU or courts protect and enable the homosocialist bastards, nationally and internationally.
Unlike some people, I figured out from my personal Sunnyvale early in life that while God most certainly reserves revenge to Himself, He expects those of us who can, and certainly those of us who are in charge, to loose "the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword" when His helpless ones, especially children, anywhere, suffer so terribly every day.
“But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me".
Sunnyvale
A very interesting and insightful column, Rod.
I know that school bullying has been around as long as schools have, but I think there are three factors of modern education that make things worse for kids today:
One: Any and all retaliation is both expressly and implicitly forbidden. The popular athlete who bullies risks little; the smaller, more academic child he bullies could end up being punished for "fighting" even if he's only trying to defend himself. I don't condone violence as a solution, of course, but there was a time when the school bully had at least to consider the possibility that his victim's older brother might be waiting in the parking lot after school before engaging in vicious torment of his victim.
Two: The school culture, just like the corporate culture it is designed to groom children to fit into, considers the "complainer" a bigger troublemaker than the sociopath who is causing the problems in the first place. In school, the child who complains about a bully will be treated by administrators as a whining crybaby who can't handle the realities of life; they will often blame the victim for bringing the problem to their attention more than they blame the bully. In corporate settings, abusive bosses or teammates often get away with taking advantage of subordinates or co-workers; if these complain about the abusive person, they are told that they aren't being "team players" etc. In either case, the pattern is established early on: don't tell anyone. It won't help, and it could very well make the situation worse.
Three: Again, like corporations, schools have gotten bigger and bigger. This doesn't mean that bullying doesn't happen in small schools and communities, too--it does. But the bigger the institutional school becomes, the easier it is for a school bully, or even a whole gang of them, to go relatively unnoticed and unpunished, especially given the dynamics at work.
I don't know how the problem will be solved. But we could accomplish quite a bit if we'd just lose the idea that bullying is a harmless rite-of-passage for kids to go through.
Cleveland: that's a great story, I'm glad you were able to get satisfaction on the creep. To forgive is the hardest thing to do in the world, but indeed it is the cost of our salvation.
Let me just ask you this though: what if this boy, ten years after this ordeal he put you through, became a born-again Christian? And then what if you met him in your church again? Would you be glad for him, or would you still want to beat him up? If it were me, I'd definitely want to do the latter but of course that could very cost you your salvation.
" What angers me even more are the cowardly liberals (think Vietnam) who in the media, Congress, religious communities, ACLU or courts protect and enable the homosocialist bastards, nationally and internationally."
From bullying to liberals being responsible for everything wrong in the country. Oops, I guess internationally would mean the whole world. If you want to go go back to Vietnam you might want to read McMaster's book Dereliction of Duty or Nagl's Eating Soup With a Knife. It will help to disabuse you of the knife in the back narrative. These two guys are part of Petraus' braintrust, but if you want to label them liberal because they write something you disagree with, feel free.
Steve
I was never bullied growing up, not really. I was teased extensively, mercilessly, for years. Between the Asian thing, and the nerd thing, and the fact that children really _are_ miniature barbarians in desperate need of civilization, this was to be expected (he says now with the benefit of decades of hindsight). That doesn't mean it was pleasant, or that I feel any sympathy for my Annoyances.
At some point I started taking tae kwon do lessons - part of my parents' continuing quest to keep me out of trouble by with extracurriculars - and word spread around about the belts I earned. In my fading memory, this appears to correlate with a reduction in the level of teasing. Then again, perhaps the Annoyances just got bored.
Come HS, there was a new round of Annoyances. Again, teasing, not actual bullying. This was annoying not only 'cuz of what was said, but because I found effective retaliation impossible. Verbal jabs weren't my strong point; physical ones were. But while there wasn't a person in my class whose butt I couldn't have kicked (*), you couldn't very well kick someone's butt just for saying mean things. (Or so I thought at the time.) So I just sat & stewed, and gradually built up pressure, and occasionally exploded when nobody was around to see.
My vindication eventually came from elsewhere. One day, following the verbal provocations of a particularly annoying Annoyance, I came within a hair's-breadth of delivering a blow that would, at the very least, have probably inflicted severe injury upon the individual in question. And then the light went on...and I realized how silly it was to even care about Mean Things Idiots Said. So I stopped caring.
Thereafter nothing fazed me. Teasing, insults, snide remarks...all rolled off like water on a frictionless surface. Peer pressure didn't work on me. I wore my weirdness like a badge of honor, and could care less what anyone (except maybe my parents) said or thought about me. From where I stood, school was about getting good grades, & hanging out with those (few) friends I had, and pursuing whatever weird hobbies or extracurriculars might strike my interest. And screw you if you didn't like or approve of it.
At some point after this High School Epiphany, the teasing, etc., just stopped coming. Or maybe I don't remember it, 'cuz I stopped paying attention. Same difference. As far as I was concerned, victory had been achieved.
As to the aftereffects...well, I'm not sure. One thing: Even now, I find it immensely difficult to fully trust other people outside my immediate family. Even with my closest friends, there's a part of me that still expects them to let me down, or betray me, or wound me in some way. It's the social equivalent of, "Just because you're paranoid, that doesn't mean they aren't out to get you." Part of me suspects that years of relentless teasing taught me that anyone outside the family was an enemy unworthy of trust. But I could be wrong; perhaps the two are unrelated.
(*) Yeah, I was a nerd, and not very big, but neither were my school's jocks.
I got through elementary school mostly with conflict avoidance, but fought where necessary, though not always with great success. In seventh grade, there was a little more out and out bullying, but I lucked out in that our new pastor had a son who was into competition wrestling. Bryce taught us more than what we learned in P.E., if you catch my meaning.
So, this bully challenges me after lunch one day. It's a traditional stand up fight as there's a crowd and not much space, and to my surprise I hold my own to a draw. Two days later, he tries again, but this time I manage a shot under his ribs that catches his breath out and I kept on that spot until he gave in. The day after that, it's wrestling day in P.E., and who do I keep drawing as a partner but Mr.-Will-not-learn-that -the-wimp-has-fangs. The wrestling lessons came in handy. He finally figured that a reverse headlock with his foot in his butt was enough and pretty well left me alone after that.
What I've heard is worse is girls. A couple of years later in that school one girl got dragged into a bathroom by several others and had her head shaved, all over attention given by a boy one of the attackers had her eye on. Savage, stupid, and bound not to work, at least in the boyfriend-attraction line.
I see lots of posts here about being bullied, and I empathize with them. And this is not the first time that I've perused a thread about bullying.
And yet, I have never seen anyone come out and admit to having actually been the bully. Why are the reformed bullies never part of the ongoing conversation about bullying... only their former victims?
I would like to think that this is because grown bullies tend not to have the attention span, intelligence, or curiousity to take part in such conversations. I would like to think that bullies grow up to be uncaring and abusive (at best) middle managers whose kids then go on to be bullies themselves.
But really, I have no idea what happens to them. Most people in my current circle of friends were also bullied in junior high/high school and considered "weird", I wonder what attracts such people to each other, even years or decades after these school experiences. And yet not a single one of my friends was a former bully, at least as far as I know.
So speak up lurkers! Were any of you former bullies? How do you feel about it now?
"Let me just ask you this though: what if this boy, ten years after this ordeal he put you through, became a born-again Christian? And then what if you met him in your church again? Would you be glad for him, or would you still want to beat him up?"
Jeff, I'd be happy for him and for God who rejoices at such conversions. I'd shake his hand, but I could never be his close friend.
"From bullying to liberals being responsible for everything wrong in the country."
By George, Steve, you finally get it!
But seriously, Steve, I most certainly do blame liberals for what ails the world in public "education", politics (Socialist ignorance), religion (see the Church of England and the homosocialist World Counsel of Churches) and the filth which tries to pass itself off as enlightened culture (see Holywood, New York City, California and Massachusetts, as examples). Do you really think anyone with half a brain believes it's generally the conservatives of the world who enable all sorts of bullies and the Evil One to do their thing? Who do you think you're trying to BS, Steve? Get real.
The lies and manipulation by Robert McNamara and Lyndon Johnson, written about by your hero McMaster, were perpetrated by liberals, Steve. Get it? Those liberals were concerned with political victories, not military victories. Our country's treasure and blood, under their watch, were spilled primarily for political reasons in Vietnam. Thanks to liberals, our country will never fully recover. It didn't take long for a Conservative (Nixon) to actually fight and win the damn war by taking the fight to the bullying cretins on their soil for a change. Not that the cowardly, anti-American liberals in Congress would let Nixon get away with a political and military victory, so they cut off all war funding and left those that trusted us to the tender mercies of world-class bullies. That cowardly, shameful act alone should bring down God's justice on your Party. Remember the falling dominoes and the killing fields? Sound familiar, Steve? Sound a lot like the despicable tactics of the current Hill Whores regarding Iraq and present-day world-class bullies if they get their way?
When will liberals learn that giving in to bullies in the hope of peace just makes them stronger and more difficult to clean up after? It didn't work with Hitler or Saddam or any other bully. Thanks to liberals, we have to lose a lot of kids and money to relearn the lesson every time.
Your crowd says G** d*** America, Steve, but it's liberals, from school administrators to some bishops to some politicians who may be damned in the eyes of Justice.
Mike F., above: there is indeed a commenter here who has frequently she said she was a bully at a Catholic elementary school years ago.
I didn't have to deal with much in the way of bullying when I was growing up, but my two oldest daughters have faced it.
In the case of my eldest daughter, it was mostly teasing and mocking, but it also included the occasional physical push or trip in gym class. (The happened in seventh grade.) After a while my wife and I visited the principal to demand action. He took us very seriously, thanked us for telling him about the problem, and promised it would be solved. And it was. We were very impressed by his attitude: "The kids doing this will either stop doing it, or they'll stop coming to school."
My second daughter had a harder time in fifth grade. She was in a very rough class and a number of the bigger, dumber kids picked on her, perhaps because she was younger (she skipped third grade) than the rest. The school teachers and principal listened sympathetically and spoke of taking this or that action, but they really never did anything about it. The following year my daughter changed schools (to a French-language school - great to have school choice), and the difference was like night and day. She found some old friends, hit her stride and had a wonderful year in sixth grade.
How a school official approaches the problem of bullying makes all the difference in the world. If problems like this ever recur, and some teacher or principal ever tries to use the "kids will be kids" line or takes a hands-off approach, I'll have no problem telling my kids to take matters into their own hands and use their fists if they have to defend themselves. If adults won't solve the problem, a good old fashioned fistfight will.
Nothing near as bad as the Sunnyvale incident ever happened to me when I was in school, because I learned that in the absence of adult responsibility I would have to defend myself physically from bullies, and luckily, was strong enough to do so well enough to raise the cost of picking on me sufficiently that bullies spared me from the worst abuse that they meted our to others who were smaller or less tough-minded than I quickly became.
The worst that was done to me was having to watch my two best friends being pounded to near unconsciousness with large sofa cushions by bullies who insisted that I "surrender" to them, which I was loathe to do. This was after having been pounded to near unconsciousness myself.
Other than that, I was "thumped" on the back of the head between classes ever day, had "wet willies" thrust in my ears and chewing gum left in my hair.
But I witnessed another boy being threatened to point of real panic with the prospect of being sodomized with a broom and knew another boy who passed out -- fainted -- after being threatened with being forced to perform oral sex on an older boy on the back of a bus.
The closest I ever came myself to sexual abuse was being one of several boys who had tampons smeared with red ink placed under their desks during study hall.
Much of this went on in close proximity to adults who tended to view things through a moral-equivalence lens when one attempted to defend oneself -- the only thing that ever seemed to make them take notice.
Those who fought back against bullies were punished as much as the bullies themselves for having done so.
The bullies and the bullied were each in the minority at my particular school, so I wouldn't generalize to from this experience except to say that it is remarkable how apt even good people are to look they other way when a cold hard look is required of them.
I don't know that one can assign bullies to one end of the political spectrum. In my own experience, which was some time ago now, the bullies were neither conservative nor liberal. They were, for the most part, good, solid, middle of the road types. Children of churchgoers and pillars of the community. Some of the worst were Catholics, as I said on another thread. There was one Jewish bully, who was kind of an anomaly. He was particularly hard on my Jewish best friend--but then again, he was the only one who ever apologized to her as an adult.
It seems interesting in retrospect that none of the Quakers and Unitarians ever bullied me. Has anyone here been bullied by a Quaker or a Unitarian? I'm sure it's possible, but it seems rare. Atheists come in all different flavors--as has been pointed out--so there probably are atheist bullies, but I'm also wondering how many people have encountered them, compared to those who were bullied by people raised to be Christians.
I think a list like this is self-selected for a plurality of nerds and geeks, all of whom were more likely to be the victims than the perpetrators. There are other places online where you'd be more likely to encounter the bullies. But they would probably not talk about what they did as "bullying," anyway. Bullies don't call it that. To them, it's just a way of life. Dominating others and getting a good laugh out of their pain doesn't go in a special category called "bullying." To them, it's normal. Abusers don't call what they do "abuse" and rapists don't call it "rape." How many murderers have you seen at their sentencing, telling the world, "I'm a good person"?
Being a girl, bullying was less physical and more verbal/emotional torture. I remember, in 2nd or 3rd grade, a particularly odious little girl who made it her life's work to be awful to me. She was in my Brownies troop, and informed me during one meeting that not only would SHE never be my friend, she would see too it that NO ONE ELSE would be friends with me either because I was not wearing Adidas sneakers (mine were cheapo no-name ones from the discount store).
We were standing on the stage in the auditorium at the time, and she would not stop taunting me, getting in my face and telling me what a loser I was. I did my best to ignore her, as I had been instructed to do, but finally could not stand it so I turned around and gave her a shove. I was a freaky strong girl, and she went flying backwards into one of those giant metal coatrack contraptions, and then she and the coatrack went tumbling off the stage leaving her lying on the floor in a tangle of coats and hangers. I could not stop laughing, the expression on her face was priceless.
I got kicked out of the Brownies for that, but it was worth it. She pretty much left me alone after that aside from glaring at me and whispering furiously with her friends every time she saw me.
I'm not one to hold grudges, normally, but it took me years to forgive that nasty girl. Childhood bullying stays with you a long time.
My younger brother and I both experienced bullying in HS.
He got it worse than I did, by all accounts, and has ended up with Social Anxiety Disorder and Depression. He doesn't even want to go to college because he feels he wouldn't make any friends.
In 5th grade a group of girls "picked me up" as a friend for about 3 weeks. Then they unceremoniously dropped me because they "didn't like me anymore." I consider that event to be the cause of my paranoia that my friends are really just "being nice" to the weird girl.
From 6th grade straight through my school experience, people accused me of being a lesbian. I have no problem with the LGBT community (and I support gay marriage,) but it really bothered me in HS.
I'm still pretty close to the experience (College Junior,) so I'm really not sure I have anything useful to say about it.
Cleveland, I am sure your words above re: difficulty with forgiveness were ill-chosen. Surely you have difficulty forgiving heterosexual abuse of children?
Why did those moms leave Rod to his plight? Why are so many kids unsupported and unprotected? I hate to say this, but from what I've seen, there simply are a lot of people who think these kids in part deserve it because they are "freaks" of some kind or another. They have a visceral dislike for these kids.
I had my share of bullying and teasing in grade school and into high school. Until my senior year, it was an accepted part of homeroom that punching Jim on the arm (causing bruises) ... all in good fun, mind! ... was one of the ways for the boys to pass the time. And i laughed and went along with it ... outside. And in a strange way, it *was* friendly. This was the honors class, and these same young men, although jocks to my confirmed geek, were competitive with me in math, science, etc. And in senior year, that stuff stopped and we were friendly (if competitive) with each other. It probably helped that I went from 5'7 to 6'3 (maintaining the same weight the whole time), and it definitely helped that the others seemingly outgrew that stuff.
My biggest regret in junior high and high school was my studied indifference to the plight of another boy in our class who was mercilessly abused (not just teased or bullied) by kids and left to his own devices by teachers. Fearing guilt by association and justifying my distance by an ill-tempered remark he threw my way once when I did try to be friendly, I have only the cold comfort that I mostly left him alone vs. actively participating in the abuse. There was only one girl, who now seems to me the best and most beautiful girl of our class, who had the courage and decency to try to protect him.
From this girl, who I ran into 20 yrs later, I learned that the boy was now serving time in prison for child abuse. He'd written her from prison, saying that he deserved to be in prison for what he'd done, and thanking her for standing up for him.
It makes me sad and sick to my stomach to think about the kids (his victims) who paid the price for our abuse of him.
By far the worst bullying I ever experienced was in the Christian church I once met with. There is nothing worse than spiritual and emotional abuse from Christian leaders who think that they are entitled to respect as "God's authorities." Junior high and high school were utopias by comparison.
I'm sorry for your experience Rod. It explains a lot about what and how you post here.
But I would dearly love to know how your experience of being bullied is any different from the people that you (and others) bully here on your blog threads? (See Cleveland's endearing "homosocialist bastards" comment for but one example.) You laughed/snickered/dismissed comments about the spiritual abuse God's gay and lesbian children experience daily.
Perhaps it's a bit of the old, do unto others what got done unto you?
Thank you, Steve, for very eloquently putting into words what I was thinking about the "liberal" claptrap.
Speaking of bullying...
Gunman Kills 2, Wounds 7 At Gay Welcoming Church
(Knoxville, Tennessee) "A gunman opened fire at a church youth performance Sunday and killed two people, including a man who witnesses called a hero for shielding others from a shotgun blast."
...
The church, like many other Unitarian Universalist churches, promotes progressive social work, such as desegregation and fighting for the rights of women and gays. The Knoxville congregation has provided sanctuary for political refugees, fed the homeless and founded a chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, according to its Web site.
"Kemper said the gunman shouted before he opened fire. 'It was hateful words. He was saying hateful things,' she said, but refused to elaborate."
More at ... aitch tea tea pea://www.365gay.com/news/072808-unitarian-murders/
Then there's:
Judge: Principal Went On Gay Witch Hunt
"(Ponce de Leon, Florida) A federal judge has accused a Florida high school principal of going on a witch hunt for gays.
"In a stinging rebuke, US District Judge Richard Smoak, said in a written ruling that Ponce de Leon High School principal David Davis led a “relentless crusade” against homosexuality at the school.
"'Davis embarked on what can only be characterized as a witch hunt,' Smoak’s ruling said. The ruling also said that Davis led 'morality assemblies' that ignored the First Amendment."
More at aitch tea tea pea://www.365gay.com/news/072808-witch-hun/
"Cleveland, I am sure your words above re: difficulty with forgiveness were ill-chosen. Surely you have difficulty forgiving heterosexual abuse of children?"
Hi, Jim. Yes, of course I would have difficulty forgiving heterosexual abuse (whatever that may mean to you, personally) vis-a-vis homosexual abuse. Abuse is abuse; it's all from hell. I mentioned having difficulty with forgiving homosexual abuse because I wanted to stay consistent with Rod's comment about leaving the R C Church because of it.
Peace.
The 2:35 PM comment is mine.
As posted by recovering ex-Pentecostal: (Knoxville, Tennessee) "'A gunman opened fire at a church youth performance Sunday and killed two people, including a man who witnesses called a hero for shielding others from a shotgun blast.'...The church, like many other Unitarian Universalist churches, promotes progressive social work, such as desegregation and fighting for the rights of women and gays. The Knoxville congregation has provided sanctuary for political refugees, fed the homeless and founded a chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, according to its Web site."
recovering ex-Pentecostal, posting from his anti-Christian, Canadian gulag, thus makes the gunman sound like a Christian superbully.
The fact:
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/jul/27/neighbors-accused-shooter-everyones-friend-hated-c/
Cleveland- The point of McMaster's book, and why it is pretty much required reading amongst general officers, is that the military's senior officers sold out. They spent their time protecting their positions and perks. They lied to each other, to the politicians and to their juniors. They were derelict in their duties. You may make fun of McMaster if you wish. He was a successful commander in Iraq and has been an influence on Petraeus.
Nagl wrote about the specific conduct of our war in Nam from a military POV. It is probably best read after reading Galula's book on COIN. It is the most commonly cited as the seminal work in COIN. Anyway, Nagl makes it pretty clear that the military just didnt know how to win in Nam. We trained ARVN to fight large scale maneuver warfare in preparation for fighting the Chinese. We were severely hampered by not having a legitimate government in South Viet Nam. We had essentially no intelligence in Nam as we did not make the people the center of our attention. Napalm does not win hearts and minds. While we were concentrating on fighting the N. Viet Nam army and bombing we were losing the overall war. We never lost a battle but we lost the war. BTW, you do know we have captured documents from when the French were fighting there that they had planned to abandon all their cities if needed. They understood that holding territory in an asymmetrical war was relatively unimportant, as long as they had the people on their side. Invading and attempting to occupy N. Viet Nam is not supported by any credible military historian I know.
The liberal response to this loss was to avoid defense issues. The conservative response was to develop the stabbed in the back narrative. Our army is so powerful that the only way we could have lost is because liberals at home undercut us. We put well over 500.000 in country. We killed lots of Cong. We bombed. It didnt matter. We didnt know HOW to win. It was not a fight over territory, that we knew how to win. We repeated these mistakes in the first few years in Iraq. Thanks to people like Petraeus, Nagl and McMaster we have a viable military victory. The political victory remains in limbo IMO.
Liberals as bullies? I am puzzled. I thought they were latte sipping wimps? Socialists? That word is casually tossed around as an insult. I dont know any liberals who claim to be socialists, but I guess they probably do exist. I think it more likely that this is more of just demonizing those with whom you disagree. I think it would be more productive, if you care about your country, to stop insulting and blaming and start talking with people who disagree with you. Neither side of the political spectrum is completely right or wrong, IMO.
Steve
Just as an anecdote in the liberal vs. conservative story line, one bigger kid who bullied me grew up to be a fairly well-known right wing broadcaster. One of my better memories from that era is the time he threatened me with a beating and then told me to "run." I just walked fast.
Well, there's a bit more to the story than Cleveland has linked to. Try this one:
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/jul/28/church-shooting-police-find-manifesto-suspects-car/
Inside the house, officers found "Liberalism is a Mental Health Disorder" by radio talk show host Michael Savage, "Let Freedom Ring" by talk show host Sean Hannity, and "The O'Reilly Factor," by television talk show host Bill O'Reilly.
The shotgun-wielding suspect in Sunday's mass shooting at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church was motivated by a hatred of "the liberal movement," and he planned to shoot until police shot him, Knoxville Police Chief Sterling P. Owen IV said this morning.
Adkisson, 58, of Powell wrote a four-page letter in which he stated his "hatred of the liberal movement," Owen said. "Liberals in general, as well as gays."
Does killing Unitarians count as anti-religious terrorism? It will be interesting to watch conservatives scramble to disassociate themselves from a man who associated himself with them.
It will be interesting to watch conservatives scramble to disassociate themselves from a man who associated himself with them.
Of course we won't do that. We're all Hitlerites, as you know. This is exactly what you would expect from conservatives -- gun massacres of liberals. The Conservintern sends out the talking points to all of us every day, encouraging us to shoot liberals on sight.
Give my best to your fellow partygoers on Planet Zork.
Of course we won't do that. We're all Hitlerites, as you know. This is exactly what you would expect from conservatives -- gun massacres of liberals. The Conservintern sends out the talking points to all of us every day, encouraging us to shoot liberals on sight.
Posted by: Rod Dreher | July 28, 2008 10:02 PM
Ann Coulter routinely calls liberals traitors. Michael Savage does similar. How come conservative politicians don't denounce this sort of rhetoric?
"You may make fun of McMaster if you wish. He was a successful commander in Iraq and has been an influence on Petraeus." Steve
Please don't put words in my mouth. Either quote me or don't bring it up. In fact, I agreed with McMaster regarding the liberal misconduct of the Vietnam war. The bullies won thanks to our liberal enablers.
"We never lost a battle but we lost the war." Steve
You know better than that. America finally got fed up with liberals killing our kids for nothing, and elected Nixon. Nixon won the war in short order, as promised, and got our men released from Jane Fonda's gentle little friends. Your Party then cut off the funding and the rest is history. Shame, political power over country, and disgrace will always be the liberal legacy. See Vietnam, Clinton/Osama, and Iraq for starters. Bullies must scare hell out of liberals.
"Nagl makes it pretty clear that the military just didn't know how to win in Nam." Steve
That's not true. They knew how to win. But how could our guys win a war by being ordered to not fight the enemy where it lived or got its supplies or where it ran for "sanctuary", while it rolled hand grenades down the isles of crowded theaters, chopped of hands and shot villagers? By the way, is that how the Cong won hearts and minds? Hell, Steve, the Commies still haven't won the hearts and minds of "their" people.
Nixon changed that heinous liberal, no-win policy PDQ, and, golly gee wiz, the North came to the table and agreed to peace. Enter the Democrat Party to cut off funding for the peace. Show over--except for our guys coming home to be spat on. I will take my hatred for liberal Democrat policy to the grave. To this day it angers and sickens me.
I know what I'm talking about. A relative of mine was a civilian debriefer of captured Vietcong in the field. If anybody in the world knew what was going on and why, he did. Did you know we killed Russians there--the ones that liberals said weren't there? And remember the photo of the South Vietnamese police chief about to shoot a bound Viet-cong prisoner in the head? I later became a regular, with my aforesaid relative, at the police chief's restaurant. Interesting conversations about liberals and war.
"We repeated these mistakes in the first few years in Iraq. [But] Thanks to people like Petraeus, Nagl and McMaster we have a viable military victory. The political victory remains in limbo IMO." Steve
Did Nagl and McMaster not know how to win a war in Vietnam, but become militarily savvy in Iraq? The difference was Bush as Commander. First, he had to overcome the so-called Civil War which liberals said couldn't be done; it required walking on egg shells militarily, while defeating al Qaeda there and the Democrat turncoats here. Do you think that was as simple as bombing Hanoi? It was damn brilliant on his part and the part of our military! After the liberal and libertarian bullShite dies down years from now, military historians will marvel at it, God willing.
I wish you had completed the thought and explained why the political victory in Iraq remains in limbo. You know the answer. Do I have to play the bad guy again and explain it?
"Liberals as bullies? I am puzzled. I thought they were latte sipping wimps?" Steve
Come now, Steve. Were the Commies and Nazis and Saddam latte sipping wimps? Even I enjoy a good Frappe Latte sometimes, preferably with Baileys :-)
"Socialists? That word is casually tossed around as an insult." Steve
Yes, as it should be.
"I don't know any liberals who claim to be socialists, but I guess they probably do exist." Steve
Nicely crafted copout. It doesn't matter wether or not you know any. http://www.gunowners.org/op0311.htm
"I think it more likely that this is more of just demonizing those with whom you disagree." Steve
Seems as though you are ignoring history and the facts, and are trying to psychologically bully me, as liberals are wont to do. (Am I a racist, too? How about a homophobe?) But that's OK; it means I won the debate.
"You may make fun of McMaster if you wish. He was a successful commander in Iraq and has been an influence on Petraeus." Steve
Please don't put words in my mouth. Either quote me or don't bring it up. In fact, I agreed with McMaster regarding the liberal misconduct of the Vietnam war. The bullies won thanks to our liberal enablers.
"We never lost a battle but we lost the war." Steve
You know better than that. America finally got fed up with liberals killing our kids for nothing, and elected Nixon. Nixon won the war in short order, as promised, and got our men released from Jane Fonda's gentle little friends. Your Party then cut off the funding and the rest is history. Shame, political power over country, and disgrace will always be the liberal legacy. See Vietnam, Clinton/Osama, and Iraq for starters. Bullies must scare hell out of liberals.
"Nagl makes it pretty clear that the military just didn't know how to win in Nam." Steve
That's not true. They knew how to win. But how could our guys win a war by being ordered to not fight the enemy where it lived or got its supplies or where it ran for "sanctuary", while it rolled hand grenades down the isles of crowded theaters, chopped of hands and shot villagers? By the way, is that how the Cong won hearts and minds? Hell, Steve, the Commies still haven't won the hearts and minds of "their" people.
Nixon changed that heinous liberal, no-win policy PDQ, and, golly gee wiz, the North came to the table and agreed to peace. Enter the Democrat Party to cut off funding for the peace. Show over--except for our guys coming home to be spat on. I will take my hatred for liberal Democrat policy to the grave. To this day it angers and sickens me.
I know what I'm talking about. A relative of mine was a civilian debriefer of captured Vietcong in the field. If anybody in the world knew what was going on and why, he did. Did you know we killed Russians there--the ones that liberals said weren't there? And remember the photo of the South Vietnamese police chief about to shoot a bound Viet-cong prisoner in the head? I later became a regular, with my aforesaid relative, at the police chief's restaurant. Interesting conversations about liberals and war.
"We repeated these mistakes in the first few years in Iraq. [But] Thanks to people like Petraeus, Nagl and McMaster we have a viable military victory. The political victory remains in limbo IMO." Steve
Did Nagl and McMaster not know how to win a war in Vietnam, but become militarily savvy in Iraq? The difference was Bush as Commander. First, he had to overcome the so-called Civil War which liberals said couldn't be done; it required walking on egg shells militarily, while defeating al Qaeda there and the Democrat turncoats here. Do you think that was as simple as bombing Hanoi? It was damn brilliant on his part and the part of our military! After the liberal and libertarian bullShite dies down years from now, military historians will marvel at it, God willing.
I wish you had completed the thought and explained why the political victory in Iraq remains in limbo. You know the answer. Do I have to play the bad guy again and explain it?
"Liberals as bullies? I am puzzled. I thought they were latte sipping wimps?" Steve
Come now, Steve. Were the Commies and Nazis and Saddam latte sipping wimps? Even I enjoy a good Frappe Latte sometimes, preferably with Baileys :-)
"Socialists? That word is casually tossed around as an insult." Steve
Yes, as it should be.
"I don't know any liberals who claim to be socialists, but I guess they probably do exist." Steve
Nicely crafted copout. It doesn't matter wether or not you know any.
"I think it more likely that this is more of just demonizing those with whom you disagree." Steve
Seems as though you are ignoring history and the facts, and are trying to psychologically bully me, as liberals are wont to do. (Am I a racist, too? How about a homophobe?) But that's OK; it means I won the debate.
Onсe I was bullied in kindergarten – a boy threw heavy things on houses I made of wood bricks, every time I finished work he destroyed it and giggled, it repeated many times. When my patience was exhausted i found a big head of toy-horse which looked more like a mallet and asked my comrade Andrey A. to hit enemy with that thing. Andrey was a weak boy with dark eyes and dark circles under eyes, he often had blood from nose and he also was very wise, he refused to beat anyone. So I decided to teach the villain myself, for some time I hesitated, but then collected all my spirit,like Raskolnikov, approached Maxim and hit back of his blonde head with that horse. I will remember that scene forever –teacher bandaging his head and children standing around, asking what happened. Teacher didn’t say a word, and I think she was right, silence made realize fault much more than scolding might do.
Later we were almost friends with Maxim, he taught me to draw airplanes and we drew pictures to each other.
The bigger shame happened in 3d grade - I hit my classmate Alyosha K. with a mop because of some trifle. He was tall and big boy, that sort of big boys who never fight and don’t even know how to use their power, or seem not to know. So I did it as a coward, just because I knew he was not dangerous. A little relieve was that he revenged me in some way – when our class was admitted into pioneers we had public voting about each person, when teacher asked who is against admitting me in whole classroom rose lonely Alyosha’s hand and he announced publically that I hit him, such immoral behavior was unworthy of young communist in his opinion.
One boy in our kindergarten was bullied for shaven head and wearing glasses, but in fact the reason was envy, because children saw every evening his father came after him, a policeman in beautiful uniform, service-cap and police coat, children are usually impressed by sevicemen and they envied very much.
From my observations people humiliated in childhood have more chances to grow up egocentric, they usually lose respect to themselves but start to love themselves more and want it from others, that is only from my own experience, of course. When I was about five kindergarten nurse humiliated my faith - she walloped me for making fetish out of chocolate bar. Mother brought it on parent’s day and I decided not to eat it, I took it into bed and fell asleep embracing it, in the morning it melted and soiled face, shirt and blanket. Nurse seized me by hair and dragged to bathroom, in a very rude way, she put my head under water in washbowl and screamed that she will make me wash all blankets.
Cleveland- May I assume you then did not read McMaster? Nagl? Your opinions go against most of what has come out from the Army War College for the last 10 years. The military does not gbelieve that they really won in Viet Nam. We had areas where COIN strategy was effectively used, but never on a wide basis.
The Viet Cong did not have to win hearts and minds. While Mao was actually pretty good at employing that strategy in an insurgency, many insurgents function by keeping the populace scared. It demonstrates that the government in charge is unable to protect them.
Must be interesting converstaions with the police chief. In my famili we have interesting conversations also. Of my approximately 60 cousins, 6 of us served during Nam. 4 in country, I was on a hospital ship and never set foot there. We have talked it over for years. My older cousin, the one who taught me to shoot, sent me Galula's book in about '79 I think. Reading about insurgency/counterinsurgency helped to see what went wrong. Winning individual battles was better than losing. It just was not winning. We were unable to prop up an incompetent corrupt S. Viet Namese govt.
In Iraq, it is the military which had lead. Much of what was done in the first few years was terribly counterproductive. Rumsfeld is nearly universally reviled amongst military officers. If we had Gates and Petraeus from the start maybe it might have been different. No. we do not have political resolution. Me have military provided security. Big difference.
Btw, Im well over 50 and never voted for a Democrat until 2006. Most of my cousins also. It was hard watching the military be used so poorly.
Steve
Steve, we simply never will agree about Vietnam or even about what the prevailing military view is about it today. I say Nixon won militarily, got a peace agreement from the Communists, and then was betrayed by a heinous Democrat Congress. You say I'm just a conservative demonizing Socialists and liberals. There is thus no basis for us to continue debating Vietnam.
Regarding Iraq, contrary to Vietnam, I don't have a lot of inside info beyond what friends of mine (officers) and friends of my son (grunts), all of whom were there, say. My son was PSYOPS, but never saw battle. I also had friends in the Pentagon and ate a lot of lunches in the National War College, not far from my office.
I can tell you this: don't be so quick to jump on Rummy who wanted to change the old, "slow" ways of fighting. He had to do the early heavy lifting--the invasion (which he handled magnificently) and the walking on eggshells regarding the civil war/insurgency part, all while fighting the liberal media, the entrenched Pentagon bureaucrats and their Hill supporters. (May the Lord bless the man for the hell he went through and the enemies it got him.)
Remember that those Hill supporters, on both sides of the isle, received "campaign donations" from U.S. contractors who naturally had established ties to the bureaucracy before, during and after the Clinton years, and who didn't want Rummy to change basic military OPS. That's not a slam against Clinton; it's just the natural way of life in Washington and is not illegal.
Anyway, Steve, believe it or not I do respect your opinion. Don't let my abhorrence of liberal actions during wartime fool you. Too bad our diametrically opposed politics don't allow us to agree on much. I hope at least we can agree that bullies must be nipped in the bud; in our private lives and internationally. International bullies may already have access to nuclear arms, thanks to the chaos after the fall of the USSR.
Bullying is a hate crime and a violation of basic human rights. Back in the 60's when I was subjected to DAILY harassment and character assassination by kids who knew they could get away with it, kids had NO right to a secure learning environment and NO right to basic human dignity. If you complained about being bullied, teachers would automatically ask you what YOU had done to cause it!
I have posted a web site which comforts and encourages victims of bullying and warns the wicked of God's impending judgment upon sinners.They might get away with it in this life, but the Judge of All the Earth will call them to account for their cruelty someday.
Thanks to Mr Dreher for his comments on "Bullying," at Sunnyvale as well as his own personal expereince. I appreciate his contribution to helping publicize and address this very serious problem. School bullies eventually grow up and may become bullies in the workplace. I was subjected to some bullying at school although nothing as serious as reported by Mr. Dreher. However the very serious bullying I experienced took place recently in a work setting in the health care field which is one of the areas where bullying is especially prevalent.
I was employed for 30 years at St. Alphonsus Regional Medical Center (SARMC)in Boise, Idaho as a respiratory therapist. SARMC is affiliated with Trinity Health who have their headquarters in Novi, Michigan and have medical facilities in seven states. In Jan. of 2004 I became the target of a psychologically abusive female co-worker, apparently because she did not approve of my religious or political beliefs. On a regular basis for more than 2.5 years she jeopardized patient care by creating and maintaining a toxic work environment. Her behavior included refusing to communicate with me (which was necessary for proper patient care to be given), making false accusations about me, withholding information I needed to do my job, and many other intentionally hostile acts.
After a year of this kind of abuse I was diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) a potentionally disabling psychiatric injury as a result of her behavior. By August of 2006 I had to leave because I was gradually becoming disabled by this ongoing ordeal.
What made the whole experience even worst was that when I reported her behavior to management, they refused to do anything to address the problem! After a couple months of her harmful behavior I reported it to the department manager. Nothing was done. I kept reporting it several more times during that first year. After the PTSD diagnosis, I also reported the bullying and the injury to the human resource department, to a member of senior management, and eventually even to the CEO, as well as to a surgeon whose patient I had been several times before, and who was also a chairperson of the Bioethics Committee. The surgeon and the CEO never responded to my report, which was in writing. Department, Human Resource, and Senior Managers all ordered me to not talk about my injuries to my co-workers. Twice the department manager claimed that my PTSD injuries were "petty." The manager from human resources was especially rude, threatening to fire me for reporting the PTSD injury to him, ordering me to lie about the injury if anyone asked, and threatening to fire me if I reported any more problem behavior of the bully to him or to the department manager. Even though I had an excellent work record, I obviously had no choice but to quit.
I've spent a lot of time thinking about what happened to me and how I should respond. Saint Alphonsus and Trinity Health are a part of the systems of Catholic Health care in this country. Both have excellent written "Standards of Conduct" or "Employee Customer Standards," but actual adherence to those standards is frequently non-existent. It's clear that at Saint Alphonsus and Trinity Health upper-level management considers themsleves exempt from following their own standards. The Trinity Health Core Values include the following: "We
value and esteem every human person because each and every one
is created by God, in the image of God," and "People come to us
when they are in need and distress. In the spirit of Jesus we
recognize their need and seek to respond to it. We reach out to
them in their need and suffering and care for them in body,
mind, and spirit."
Contrast that with the experience I had of the department manager claiming that PTSD is "petty," and of the employee relations manager, red-faced and bellowing at me across the table in the department manager's tiny office, ordering me to lie about the PTSD if anyone asked, and threatening to fire me, literally for being injured on the job, and for reporting patient-endangering behavior by an abusive co-worker!
Even though I worked for SARMC which brags about being the place where "advanced healing begins," what began there for me was the worst injury I've ever sustained in my 60 years on this earth. After I reported the PTSD to them, management never offered me any treatment for it. I had to seek and finance treatment myself included medication and therapy which is still ongoing, more than four and a half years after the bullying began. I should also add that a St. Alphonsus professional first diagnosed the PTSD as occuring on the job at St Alphonsus, but St. Alphonsus still never offered me any protection from the abusive co-worker, not any treatment for the PTSD!
Unfortunately my experiences as an employee of Trinity Health are not unique. Others at Saint Alphonsus have had similar experiences. Another long-term employee who had to leave for similar reasons told me that she was treated by management as if she were, "as disposable as a used paper towel." Recently I spoke with a young woman who reported that she was fired from Saint Alphonsus because she was having a difficult pregnancy and had to be on bedrest to protect her health as well as the health of the unborn baby. Another former employee was fired because she reported some unethical behavior by a physician to the Trinity Health Integrity Hot Line, even though the "standards" promise that employees will not be retaliated against for reporting problems.
Without a doubt malicious behavior, such as I and others have experienced from employers who claim to be Christian, is giving all Christian a bad reputation. Bullying is bad in any school or work setting, but it's especially harmful when the employer is a health care facility that claims to have a Christian focus or foundation! Certainly strong ethical unions could do a lot to prevent employees from this kind of abusive treatment by co-owrkers or management but union strength in this country has been seriously eroded by misguided conservative efforts. An alternative is for those who have been bullied, or know of others who have been bullied, to speak out. Naturally if you are still employed by or with the bully, speaking out at work may cost you your job. But you can probably talk to others about it. As a Christian I've tried to find a non-vindictive way of addressing the problem. For me this includes, whenever I have the opportunity, telling others what happened to me, as I am doing now in this comment. I included an April 11 entry on my blog at www.leonardnolt.blogspot.com about being bullied and will be adding more this month. Thanks again Mr. Dreher.
Leonard Nolt
Boise, Idaho
Thanks to Mr Dreher for his comments on "Bullying," at Sunnyvale as well as his own personal expereince. I appreciate his contribution to helping publicize and address this very serious problem. School bullies eventually grow up and may become bullies in the workplace. I was subjected to some bullying at school although nothing as serious as reported by Mr. Dreher. However the very serious bullying I experienced took place recently in a work setting in the health care field which is one of the areas where bullying is especially prevalent.
I was employed for 30 years at St. Alphonsus Regional Medical Center (SARMC)in Boise, Idaho as a respiratory therapist. SARMC is affiliated with Trinity Health who have their headquarters in Novi, Michigan and have medical facilities in seven states. In Jan. of 2004 I became the target of a psychologically abusive female co-worker, apparently because she did not approve of my religious or political beliefs. On a regular basis for more than 2.5 years she jeopardized patient care by creating and maintaining a toxic work environment. Her behavior included refusing to communicate with me (which was necessary for proper patient care to be given), making false accusations about me, withholding information I needed to do my job, and many other intentionally hostile acts.
After a year of this kind of abuse I was diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) a potentionally disabling psychiatric injury as a result of her behavior. By August of 2006 I had to leave because I was gradually becoming disabled by this ongoing ordeal.
What made the whole experience even worst was that when I reported her behavior to management, they refused to do anything to address the problem! After a couple months of her harmful behavior I reported it to the department manager. Nothing was done. I kept reporting it several more times during that first year. After the PTSD diagnosis, I also reported the bullying and the injury to the human resource department, to a member of senior management, and eventually even to the CEO, as well as to a surgeon whose patient I had been several times before, and who was also a chairperson of the Bioethics Committee. The surgeon and the CEO never responded to my report, which was in writing. Department, Human Resource, and Senior Managers all ordered me to not talk about my injuries to my co-workers. Twice the department manager claimed that my PTSD injuries were "petty." The manager from human resources was especially rude, threatening to fire me for reporting the PTSD injury to him, ordering me to lie about the injury if anyone asked, and threatening to fire me if I reported any more problem behavior of the bully to him or to the department manager. Even though I had an excellent work record, I obviously had no choice but to quit.
I've spent a lot of time thinking about what happened to me and how I should respond. Saint Alphonsus and Trinity Health are a part of the systems of Catholic Health care in this country. Both have excellent written "Standards of Conduct" or "Employee Customer Standards," but actual adherence to those standards is frequently non-existent. It's clear that at Saint Alphonsus and Trinity Health upper-level management considers themsleves exempt from following their own standards. The Trinity Health Core Values include the following: "We
value and esteem every human person because each and every one
is created by God, in the image of God," and "People come to us
when they are in need and distress. In the spirit of Jesus we
recognize their need and seek to respond to it. We reach out to
them in their need and suffering and care for them in body,
mind, and spirit."
Contrast that with the experience I had of the department manager claiming that PTSD is "petty," and of the employee relations manager, red-faced and bellowing at me across the table in the department manager's tiny office, ordering me to lie about the PTSD if anyone asked, and threatening to fire me, literally for being injured on the job, and for reporting patient-endangering behavior by an abusive co-worker!
Even though I worked for SARMC which brags about being the place where "advanced healing begins," what began there for me was the worst injury I've ever sustained in my 60 years on this earth. After I reported the PTSD to them, management never offered me any treatment for it. I had to seek and finance treatment myself included medication and therapy which is still ongoing, more than four and a half years after the bullying began. I should also add that a St. Alphonsus professional first diagnosed the PTSD as occuring on the job at St Alphonsus, but St. Alphonsus still never offered me any protection from the abusive co-worker, not any treatment for the PTSD!
Unfortunately my experiences as an employee of Trinity Health are not unique. Others at Saint Alphonsus have had similar experiences. Another long-term employee who had to leave for similar reasons told me that she was treated by management as if she were, "as disposable as a used paper towel." Recently I spoke with a young woman who reported that she was fired from Saint Alphonsus because she was having a difficult pregnancy and had to be on bedrest to protect her health as well as the health of the unborn baby. Another former employee was fired because she reported some unethical behavior by a physician to the Trinity Health Integrity Hot Line, even though the "standards" promise that employees will not be retaliated against for reporting problems.
Without a doubt malicious behavior, such as I and others have experienced from employers who claim to be Christian, is giving all Christian a bad reputation. Bullying is bad in any school or work setting, but it's especially harmful when the employer is a health care facility that claims to have a Christian focus or foundation! Certainly strong ethical unions could do a lot to prevent employees from this kind of abusive treatment by co-owrkers or management but union strength in this country has been seriously eroded by misguided conservative efforts. An alternative is for those who have been bullied, or know of others who have been bullied, to speak out. Naturally if you are still employed by or with the bully, speaking out at work may cost you your job. But you can probably talk to others about it. As a Christian I've tried to find a non-vindictive way of addressing the problem. For me this includes, whenever I have the opportunity, telling others what happened to me, as I am doing now in this comment. I included an April 11 entry on my blog at www.leonardnolt.blogspot.com about being bullied and will be adding more this month. Thanks again Mr. Dreher.
Leonard Nolt
Boise, Idaho
Thanks to Mr Dreher for his comments on "Bullying," at Sunnyvale as well as his own personal expereince. I appreciate his contribution to helping publicize and address this very serious problem. School bullies eventually grow up and may become bullies in the workplace. I was subjected to some bullying at school although nothing as serious as reported by Mr. Dreher. However the very serious bullying I experienced took place recently in a work setting in the health care field which is one of the areas where bullying is especially prevalent.
I was employed for 30 years at St. Alphonsus Regional Medical Center (SARMC)in Boise, Idaho as a respiratory therapist. SARMC is affiliated with Trinity Health who have their headquarters in Novi, Michigan and have medical facilities in seven states. In Jan. of 2004 I became the target of a psychologically abusive female co-worker, apparently because she did not approve of my religious or political beliefs. On a regular basis for more than 2.5 years she jeopardized patient care by creating and maintaining a toxic work environment. Her behavior included refusing to communicate with me (which was necessary for proper patient care to be given), making false accusations about me, withholding information I needed to do my job, and many other intentionally hostile acts.
After a year of this kind of abuse I was diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) a potentionally disabling psychiatric injury as a result of her behavior. By August of 2006 I had to leave because I was gradually becoming disabled by this ongoing ordeal.
What made the whole experience even worst was that when I reported her behavior to management, they refused to do anything to address the problem! After a couple months of her harmful behavior I reported it to the department manager. Nothing was done. I kept reporting it several more times during that first year. After the PTSD diagnosis, I also reported the bullying and the injury to the human resource department, to a member of senior management, and eventually even to the CEO, as well as to a surgeon whose patient I had been several times before, and who was also a chairperson of the Bioethics Committee. The surgeon and the CEO never responded to my report, which was in writing. Department, Human Resource, and Senior Managers all ordered me to not talk about my injuries to my co-workers. Twice the department manager claimed that my PTSD injuries were "petty." The manager from human resources was especially rude, threatening to fire me for reporting the PTSD injury to him, ordering me to lie about the injury if anyone asked, and threatening to fire me if I reported any more problem behavior of the bully to him or to the department manager. Even though I had an excellent work record, I obviously had no choice but to quit.
I've spent a lot of time thinking about what happened to me and how I should respond. Saint Alphonsus and Trinity Health are a part of the systems of Catholic Health care in this country. Both have excellent written "Standards of Conduct" or "Employee Customer Standards," but actual adherence to those standards is frequently non-existent. It's clear that at Saint Alphonsus and Trinity Health upper-level management considers themsleves exempt from following their own standards. The Trinity Health Core Values include the following: "We
value and esteem every human person because each and every one
is created by God, in the image of God," and "People come to us
when they are in need and distress. In the spirit of Jesus we
recognize their need and seek to respond to it. We reach out to
them in their need and suffering and care for them in body,
mind, and spirit."
Contrast that with the experience I had of the department manager claiming that PTSD is "petty," and of the employee relations manager, red-faced and bellowing at me across the table in the department manager's tiny office, ordering me to lie about the PTSD if anyone asked, and threatening to fire me, literally for being injured on the job, and for reporting patient-endangering behavior by an abusive co-worker!
Even though I worked for SARMC which brags about being the place where "advanced healing begins," what began there for me was the worst injury I've ever sustained in my 60 years on this earth. After I reported the PTSD to them, management never offered me any treatment for it. I had to seek and finance treatment myself included medication and therapy which is still ongoing, more than four and a half years after the bullying began. I should also add that a St. Alphonsus professional first diagnosed the PTSD as occuring on the job at St Alphonsus, but St. Alphonsus still never offered me any protection from the abusive co-worker, not any treatment for the PTSD!
Unfortunately my experiences as an employee of Trinity Health are not unique. Others at Saint Alphonsus have had similar experiences. Another long-term employee who had to leave for similar reasons told me that she was treated by management as if she were, "as disposable as a used paper towel." Recently I spoke with a young woman who reported that she was fired from Saint Alphonsus because she was having a difficult pregnancy and had to be on bedrest to protect her health as well as the health of the unborn baby. Another former employee was fired because she reported some unethical behavior by a physician to the Trinity Health Integrity Hot Line, even though the "standards" promise that employees will not be retaliated against for reporting problems.
Without a doubt malicious behavior, such as I and others have experienced from employers who claim to be Christian, is giving all Christian a bad reputation. Bullying is bad in any school or work setting, but it's especially harmful when the employer is a health care facility that claims to have a Christian focus or foundation! Certainly strong ethical unions could do a lot to prevent employees from this kind of abusive treatment by co-owrkers or management but union strength in this country has been seriously eroded by misguided conservative efforts. An alternative is for those who have been bullied, or know of others who have been bullied, to speak out. Naturally if you are still employed by or with the bully, speaking out at work may cost you your job. But you can probably talk to others about it. As a Christian I've tried to find a non-vindictive way of addressing the problem. For me this includes, whenever I have the opportunity, telling others what happened to me, as I am doing now in this comment. I included an April 11 entry on my blog at www.leonardnolt.blogspot.com about being bullied and will be adding more this month. Thanks again Mr. Dreher.
Leonard Nolt
Boise, Idaho
Thanks to Mr Dreher for his comments on "Bullying," at Sunnyvale as well as his own personal expereince. I appreciate his contribution to helping publicize and address this very serious problem. School bullies eventually grow up and may become bullies in the workplace. I was subjected to some bullying at school although nothing as serious as reported by Mr. Dreher. However the very serious bullying I experienced took place recently in a work setting in the health care field which is one of the areas where bullying is especially prevalent.
I was employed for 30 years at St. Alphonsus Regional Medical Center (SARMC)in Boise, Idaho as a respiratory therapist. SARMC is affiliated with Trinity Health who have their headquarters in Novi, Michigan and have medical facilities in seven states. In Jan. of 2004 I became the target of a psychologically abusive female co-worker, apparently because she did not approve of my religious or political beliefs. On a regular basis for more than 2.5 years she jeopardized patient care by creating and maintaining a toxic work environment. Her behavior included refusing to communicate with me (which was necessary for proper patient care to be given), making false accusations about me, withholding information I needed to do my job, and many other intentionally hostile acts.
After a year of this kind of abuse I was diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) a potentionally disabling psychiatric injury as a result of her behavior. By August of 2006 I had to leave because I was gradually becoming disabled by this ongoing ordeal.
What made the whole experience even worst was that when I reported her behavior to management, they refused to do anything to address the problem! After a couple months of her harmful behavior I reported it to the department manager. Nothing was done. I kept reporting it several more times during that first year. After the PTSD diagnosis, I also reported the bullying and the injury to the human resource department, to a member of senior management, and eventually even to the CEO, as well as to a surgeon whose patient I had been several times before, and who was also a chairperson of the Bioethics Committee. The surgeon and the CEO never responded to my report, which was in writing. Department, Human Resource, and Senior Managers all ordered me to not talk about my injuries to my co-workers. Twice the department manager claimed that my PTSD injuries were "petty." The manager from human resources was especially rude, threatening to fire me for reporting the PTSD injury to him, ordering me to lie about the injury if anyone asked, and threatening to fire me if I reported any more problem behavior of the bully to him or to the department manager. Even though I had an excellent work record, I obviously had no choice but to quit.
I've spent a lot of time thinking about what happened to me and how I should respond. Saint Alphonsus and Trinity Health are a part of the systems of Catholic Health care in this country. Both have excellent written "Standards of Conduct" or "Employee Customer Standards," but actual adherence to those standards is frequently non-existent. It's clear that at Saint Alphonsus and Trinity Health upper-level management considers themsleves exempt from following their own standards. The Trinity Health Core Values include the following: "We
value and esteem every human person because each and every one
is created by God, in the image of God," and "People come to us
when they are in need and distress. In the spirit of Jesus we
recognize their need and seek to respond to it. We reach out to
them in their need and suffering and care for them in body,
mind, and spirit."
Contrast that with the experience I had of the department manager claiming that PTSD is "petty," and of the employee relations manager, red-faced and bellowing at me across the table in the department manager's tiny office, ordering me to lie about the PTSD if anyone asked, and threatening to fire me, literally for being injured on the job, and for reporting patient-endangering behavior by an abusive co-worker!
Even though I worked for SARMC which brags about being the place where "advanced healing begins," what began there for me was the worst injury I've ever sustained in my 60 years on this earth. After I reported the PTSD to them, management never offered me any treatment for it. I had to seek and finance treatment myself included medication and therapy which is still ongoing, more than four and a half years after the bullying began. I should also add that a St. Alphonsus professional first diagnosed the PTSD as occuring on the job at St Alphonsus, but St. Alphonsus still never offered me any protection from the abusive co-worker, not any treatment for the PTSD!
Unfortunately my experiences as an employee of Trinity Health are not unique. Others at Saint Alphonsus have had similar experiences. Another long-term employee who had to leave for similar reasons told me that she was treated by management as if she were, "as disposable as a used paper towel." Recently I spoke with a young woman who reported that she was fired from Saint Alphonsus because she was having a difficult pregnancy and had to be on bedrest to protect her health as well as the health of the unborn baby. Another former employee was fired because she reported some unethical behavior by a physician to the Trinity Health Integrity Hot Line, even though the "standards" promise that employees will not be retaliated against for reporting problems.
Without a doubt malicious behavior, such as I and others have experienced from employers who claim to be Christian, is giving all Christian a bad reputation. Bullying is bad in any school or work setting, but it's especially harmful when the employer is a health care facility that claims to have a Christian focus or foundation! Certainly strong ethical unions could do a lot to prevent employees from this kind of abusive treatment by co-owrkers or management but union strength in this country has been seriously eroded by misguided conservative efforts. An alternative is for those who have been bullied, or know of others who have been bullied, to speak out. Naturally if you are still employed by or with the bully, speaking out at work may cost you your job. But you can probably talk to others about it. As a Christian I've tried to find a non-vindictive way of addressing the problem. For me this includes, whenever I have the opportunity, telling others what happened to me, as I am doing now in this comment. I included an April 11 entry on my blog at www.leonardnolt.blogspot.com about being bullied and will be adding more this month. Thanks again Mr. Dreher.
Leonard Nolt
Boise, Idaho
Mr. Dreher,
What happened to my comment that I left you on this site? I guess the only comments that aren't erased are only the ones that agree with you. I think that this whole situation has been blown out of porportion. There is no doubt that some bullying occured, but I DO NOT believe that it went to the extremes that you have claimed. I would like to see a copy of the police report. These are children that you are slandering. You are just as much a bully by writing things that you really do not no about. Just because you were abused doesn't give you the right to assume that these boys are guilty. I don't believe this. And they are innocent until proven guilty. You have helped in ruining the reputation of Sunnyvale. Go to therapy and get over your problems and stop trying to ruin innocent childrens lives that you have no idea about. I DO NOT BELIEVE THESE ACCUSED CHILDREN WERE SEXUALLY ASSAULTED!
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