U.S. out of Afghanistan?

But shouldn't it oppose the Afghan war for all the same reasons it has opposed Iraq?

Yes! This leftie says get us compltely out of the Middle East - Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, all of it. Otherwise, there is no end game, it's a permanent occupation 'till Kingdom Come.

'Failing States

I believe the most persistent and potentially dangerous threats will come less from emerging ambitious states, than from failing ones that cannot meet the basic needs - much less the aspirations - of their people."

"Afghanistan Challenge

The vastly larger, more complex international effort in Afghanistan presents a different set of challenges. There are dozens of nations, hundreds of NGOs, universities, development banks, the United Nations, NATO, the EU - all working to help a nation beset by crushing poverty, a bumper opium crop, and a ruthless and resilient insurgency. Getting all these different elements to coordinate operations and share best practices has been a colossal - and so far an all too often unsuccessful - undertaking."

The above from Bob Gates' 7/15 speech via Small Wars Journal

Iraq was/is largely an urban conflict. It was not the first choice of conflict site by AQ. Afghanistan was their first choice. Its terrain, and the proximity of friendly safe territory in Pakistan makes it good insurgency material. Afganistan is bigger and has a larger population, a more decentralized population. If we can simply make it improved enough to not qualify as a failed state, it improves our security.

Steve

Let's also not forget that the Taliban didn't move in a big way towards suicide bombing as a primary if not *the* primary anti-NATO tactic until fairly recently, like late 2006/early 2007. Before then it was classic hit-and-run light infantry actions and weapons (mortars, etc.) for the most part.

Why the switch? Um, because they saw how well it worked in Iraq--that random violence like that could make western supporters of the war go wobbly, or even flip to a defeatist mindset. There were those of us who tried warning Rod et al. at the time that their lack of tenacity and willingness to see the fight through to the finish in Baghdad, far from freeing up "focus" for Afghanistan, could only have dire blowback consequences in "the good war". Our warnings were brushed aside.

Wars aren't fought with "focus". They are fought with force.

The US/NATO presence in Afghanistan keeps a lid on a very unstable situation. Without those forces, large parts of the country would fall to the Taliban, especially in the Pashtun belt along the South and Eastern border of Afghanistan with Pakistan (which is where the Taliban/Al-Qa'ida safehaven is and has been since early 2002).

The Democrats are absolutely right that Iraq caused the US to "take the eye off the ball" in Afghanistan - I was there and saw it happen. There was a real opportunity to get things right in those first few years before the Taliban really got going again - we blew it.

Now what we have is an increasingly bloody stalemate. Pouring more US troops and money into Afghanistan, and cutting off the Pakistani safehavens could conceivably give the Karzai regime more breathing room but it is just that. They will need propping up for a long time even if we are able to improve things.

Obama put it clumsily but he was actually right - the problem is Pakistan and how can you stabilize Afghanistan when there is this congenial, radical base next door - the Soviets never got it right, eventually got exhausted and left. Their puppet regime in Kabul - the notorious but effective Najibullah - didn't collapse immediately, it held on for a few years and even sought to make alliances with some of the Pashtun mujahids. The Karzai Government would probably do the same (Karzai briefly worked with the Taliban in the old days) and you would see a slow motion "talibanization" of Afghanistan - which is kind of happening anyway and is probably Afghanistan's destiny (or the break up of the country into a Northern moderate Islamist Dari/Uzbek entity and a Southern very radical Pashtun mini-state.

The Democrats and Obama have a problem in that many Americans want their leaders to look and act tough, and actually like war - at least when they look winnable - so the Dems can't look like a party that thinks that foreign intervention and military adventures are generally a very bad idea (as Jefferson and Washington did). So they posture about getting out of Iraq but going in heavy in Afghanistan/Pakistan. Wouldn't it be refreshing to say we should get out - and also out of Korea or Colombia or Djibouti -and mind our own business. Now that would indeed be "change we can believe in."

The Taliban has coordinated the opening of old marble quarries in Pakistan. This adds to their income and legitimizes their role in FATA. They currently pay their guerillas about $8 a day vs $2 a day that PAkistan pays its Frontier Corps. It will take a concerted diplomatic effort and lots of money to get Pakistan to address the FATA problem, especially as it effects us more than them.

Steve

&    nbsp;[having difficulty posting this at "Police Pense" thread - this one seems related, so here goes, I beg your indulgence]

And count me firmly in the camp of "modern Islam is dangerously deluded."

My evidence? Pakistani blogger Moin Ansari provides the "real" low down on precolumbian Islam (see side bar for the proof of heiroglyphic rock markings in "Arabic") along with musings on Syriac script on a Christian tombstone (hello - Maronite and Malankari rites both worship liturgically in their original semitic tongues and have done for two millenia, PREDATING ISLAM):

http://tinyurl.com/6qvn9j

One could keep oneself bemused for hours at this site, if it weren't so tragic: don't forget this is a Western educated "progressive" -- this is "mainstream" in such South Asian circles, except like all violent human-incited perturbations of the peaceful waters of Divine Creation there's no quelle-source, there's just an awful lot of waves... unsettling all around with fear and trembling...

As Christians we have a duty to counter irrational dehellenistic voluntarism wherever it rears its ugly head, and that's even when its here at home on Pennsylvania Avenue!

Maybe John Derbyshire had the right idea from the get-go. I believe it went something like, "Forget occupying these countries. Bomb the hell out of them, and if they don't learn their lesson, bomb the hell out of them again until they do."

Big difference between Afghanistan and Iraq. Afghanistan has no oil. It was attacked for the sole purpose of posturing - public retaliation for 911.

Iraq is an occupation. An endless occupation. The guys who are really running the show will make sure of that.

And you're paying for it with your hard-earned tax dollars. Talk about government deciding how your tax dollars are spent! But I guess you figure its worth it because they're keeping "the terrorists" over there. What a fool believes...

Clare - I seen a lot of stuff on this website in the past couple of weeks, "Christian" stuff that is so extreme it's on par with any delusions modern Islam could conjure up.

The people of Afghanistan just want to live in peace. I've never spoken with someone who has lived there, but I imagine that's what any person with a family would want. To not be bothered by foreign occupiers or local terrorists. I have a great deal of empathy for them because I can imagine what it would be like not knowing where to turn with America saying one thing and many of your countrymen saying another. How utterly exhausting. How terrifying.

But we over here talk about how it's such an easy decision to make. Just choose democracy. Easy! I mean, we make it doubly easy because if you don't, we're going to "bomb the hell out of you." What incentive is that? Maybe they want to be like America only if to get some semblance of power with which to defend themselves from experiencing more humiliation and death.

I'm not saying America was wrong to topple the Taliban, nor is it wrong in trying to construct a healthy government in Afghanistan. But I really don't think we can force the square peg through the round hole here. We need to look at root causes of terrorism in these areas and how they can best be alleviated. I imagine it won't be by using bombs.