Ave Maria's Benedict Option stalls

Can you read that if you don't subscribe to American Conservative? I don't think so.

I'm not really a fan of Dr. Healy, and charismatic prayer style doesn't really belong *in* the Mass, though I have no problem with it otherwise.

The church's plan looked lovely for the most part, and compared to the church I'm currently attending it's magnificent. People can nitpick anything to death, can't they?

We sang that "Ave Maria" yesterday! Our tiny choir may not have sounded that good, but we've got a lot of heart. ;)

If the church in the video is the one causing the problems, I don't really see what the problem is, and I consider myself a fairly traditional Catholic.

"a stone rendering of a cartoon rocket-ship on a steel launch pad."

Fellini's 8-1/2 justified again!

People, all I can say is run for your life from anything associated with TR Monaghan. The list of those who have gotten burned by his insane egoism is a long and sad one, and includes dozens of good hearted academics who believed they were signing on to a legitimate Catholic endeavor.

As Prof. John Hittinger has said numerous times, Ave Maria Inc. is a pirate on the high seas of academia. The policy is to rob, loot and burn down Catholic institutions and academics in pursuit of some crazy ill-conceived gigantic institution - witness the three institutions of higher education he has already destroyed in Michigan: Ave Maria College, Orchard Lake-St. Mary's, and the Law School in Michigan. All of these were made up of good Orthodox Catholics who were used and cast aside when they no longer served Monaghan's interests. He called them "Intellectual Terrorists" for opposing his destruction of these institutions.

If you are interested in learning about it, there's a website called "Avewatch" that compiles information going back a few years. It's not for the faint of heart!

I feel very sorry for these mom and pop Catholics who probably believed in the idea of trying to build a community built around Catholic principles. They are likely in for a very rude awakening when they find that Monaghan's idea of Catholicism does not include the church's social justice teachings, nor the teachings on the inherent human dignity of every human being.

Sally Rogers:

You know more about Monaghan than I do. Thanks for the info and the links. I'll check them out.

Utopias generally fail. That's why La Reunion is now Reunion Arena.

I think the church is gorgeous. I love the woodwork especially, and the arches in the ceiling are IMO quite graceful. The altar and crucifix are gorgeous. Yes, it is "modern" architecture (i.e. early 20th c.), but not all churches *have* to look like 1840s German faux-Gothic. If you're going to do modern, in the style of Wright is the way to go.

Tom Monaghan's religion is like his pizza. Counterfeit. Non-traditional. He is a shill for the Novus Ordo. Novus Ordo pizza. Novus Ordo liturgy. The bastardization of Catholicism.

Bishop Fulton J. Sheen wrote, "You are better off going to a state school where you will have the chance to fight for your faith, than going to a modern Catholic university where you will have the new watered-down, modernist version of the faith spoon-fed to your unsuspecting minds, so that you will be apt to lose your faith."

Modernism is, according to Pascendi Dominici gregis of Pius X, the "synthesis of all heresies."

Wrote Paul VI: « il Santo Padre afferma di avere la sensazione che da qualche fessura sia entrato il fumo di Satana nel tempio di Dio. » (The Holy Father affirms that he has the feeling that from some fissure the smoke of Satan has entered into the temple of God.)

Mel Gibson should start a high-school and college to complement his Holy Family Church. The Faith cannot be counterfeited. Neither by the Masons nor by the Protestants.

We will always fall short in our attempts to build houses of worship. While a building is important (ie God dedicated substantial passages of the bible twice over for instructions for his tabernacle--His dwelling place with man), it is interesting how often He met man in the cleft of a rock or high on a hill. My human eyes have frequently found distractions that haven't met my approval in every church I have attended, only to have my heart broken over the truth that i am so weak in my understanding of what constitutes true worship. Reminds me of when Jesus spoke "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks." (john 4)

As a suggestion for the next church design that might sanctify our worship: catacombs :)

I can't get the PDFs to open either, although I've had no trouble wiht American Conservative in the past.

"This kvetching between the Latin traditionalists and the Steubenville-trained charismatics is a scandal. Like most parishes here in NYC, I'm sure they have a number of Mass times on Sunday (including Saturday eve vigil) and several Masses daily. Why not have a Tridentine Rite Mass at one hour and a charistmatic type Mass at another hour and your basic Novus Ordo vernacular language Masses at all the other times ... and "just get on with it" ?"

Because they just can't get on with it. In my experience the "real traditionalists" can't stand anything other than the Traditional Latin Mass (even the Eastern Rites) - and their genuine hatred for the Novus Ordo Mass then get's tacked onto those who attend it as well. Most attending the Novus Ordo will see the Traditional Mass as a viable preference, but that will never be good enough for traditionalist types. Furthermore, the charismatic movement in general is regarded not only with suspicion but outright contempt in the traditionalist movement. I've personally heard sermons from FSSP clergy stating that the Catholic charismatic movement is "demon led". With this belief about the Charismatic movement, its no wonder traditionalist Catholics and the Traditional Latin Mass have not been embraced by Fr. Healy and Ave Maria.

So this is why they can't just "get on with it" and live in peace and harmony with other Catholics. Given the attitude of a number of traditionalists (though not all) that I've encountered at various parishes that have the Traditional Mass, they certainly try to make the argument that they are the remnant, the only true Catholics left in their diocese.

Matthew is absolutely right in describing the loathing felt by many Latin Mass folks against charismatics. I've picked this up from several sources and it greatly surprises me as the charismatic movement is the one thing that has kept many Catholics within the Catholic Church. Were it not for that, the exodus into Protestant and independent charismatic churches starting in the late 1970s would have been far greater. And the charismatic movement is the one thing that is keeping lots of Latin Americans still within the church. I've picked up a similar traditionalist hatred against Medjugorje devotees as well.
I first covered AMU back in 2003 when I flew to Ypsilanti to see the old campus, then to Florida to interview Tom Monaghan in a tomato field that was to be his new university. There were a lot of questions back then as to why he didn't plop his millions into existing Catholic colleges and universities, many of which could have really used the funds. He seemed to feel the way a lot of church-planters feel: It's easier to build and influence a new church than to try to change an older one.

I have tried several times to access the PDF. There are no links to the articles at all, only to the cover story on anthrax.

No - there is something wrong with the page, I think.

Here is a way to get the article about ave maria:

(1) click on the anthrax story, then click on the red PDF letters.
(2) the page is blank on my computer except for the page numbers at the top. I clicked on pp. 18 through 21 and saved them on my disk.
(3) they can be opened with acrobat then.

I'm not sure what the problem is - my browser has never had a problem opening anything before. (I use firefox but I will try IE)

The piece ends on a rather hopeful note for Ave Maria.

Fair enough, Michael B. Dougherty. The "hatchet piece" comment was unwarranted.

I agree mostly with Jeff Culbreath's concerns and his conclusion. The oratory interior you describe sounds heinous. Hopefully it's just a matter of raising funds to finish it out rather than a choice for flexibility seating, carpet, and spare modern stylings.

Thanks - Roland de Chanson. I went into the Anthrax article and then just carried on clicking on the page numbers above it till I got to the Ave Maria article.

I have read quite a few pieces about AMU, since I have known some people connected with the place, and I thought this was the best and the most balanced article I've seen.

If you were an orthodox Catholic, what could be better than being in a town where orthodox Catholics and their values guided public life?

Perhaps the more fundamental issue theologically is that God does not bless this sort of enterprise. What is the point of building a tiny enclave of Catholic orthodoxy anyway? So that -- IF all goes well with the enclave -- there will still be a tiny remnant of believers amidst a vast world that's been written off?

How does this mindset differ from that of the servant who buried his one talent?

Perhaps the more fundamental issue theologically is that God does not bless this sort of enterprise.

Wow. Not only is it unsuccessful, but God hates it. And he hates you too Tom Monaghan. So there.

I would expect that at least some of the AMU grads sent out into the world are paying dividends. Taken to the extreme, the anti-enclave view would promote sex toy parties for the neighbors as an excellent opportunity for evangelization.

David wrote, "I've certainly run into many traditionalists who hate the Novus Ordo Mass and everything having to do with it -- but I've also run into many Novus Ordo Mass Catholics who practicially spit at you if you so much as suggest doing something like singing *Salve Regina* in Latin at the end of Mass. They act as if they think that doing *anything* with the merest *hint* of Latin or Gregorian Chant is tantamount to re-establishing the inquisition or something."

David, you prove my point, in a sense. Catholics who attend the New Mass generally don't care if the Traditional Mass is celebrated in their diocese as long as its not rammed down THEIR THROATS. (Though I must say, in more than 10 years of being a music director and subbing in at different churches with diverse backgrounds from a Latin Mass parish to suburban parishes with Glory and Praise in the pews, I have never encountered outright hostility to either Latin or Chant. While it may not have been the parish's "taste" in music, they at least tolerated it in small amounts.)

I simply can't say the same with the radtrad Latin Mass folks whom it would please nothing more than to see every parish that uses the Novus Ordo either "convert" to the Latin Mass or cease to exist. Unlike the Novus Ordo folks, they DO CARE that the Novus Ordo is celebrated. Musically, I have worked with folks who don't want to sing from the Adoremus Hymnal because some of the hymns in it were written or arranged by Protestants or "Novus Ordo Catholics". Give me a break.

Stumbled on this site, and thought I would give you a little perspective. We live here --moved here this summer --kids, dog and all.

[b]THE GOOD[/b]

Total kid heaven. We have 40 kids within 100 yards of our house. The cell phones, computers and TV have been replaced with playing outside. It really has been remarkable. Water park, basketball courts, tennis courts, ball fields and bike paths everywhere are a huge hit with my kids.

The Catholic Prep School. We moved here from the Northeast, and figured the schools would be ok--not great--but ok. We were wrong, the school has been fantastic. Demanding, rigorous and free from the crap filled days we had experienced in the past. The reading list is fantastic, and we are so happy to see our son reading Tom Sayer, and enjoying it.

Neighbors. Hassle free, normal and little of any keping up with the Jonses -- A nice change.

The church. There are lots of masses to chose from ranging from your basic 10 o'clock mass to the 7 PM college mass and latin masses. I could do without the English as a second language priests--which are hard to understand - but overall it has been a very positive experience.

Amenities. Great place to walk, ride a bike, golf or just relax. They did a nice job of crating nice open spaces and green spaces.

Dog Park. Best I have ever been to.

Fresh Vegetables. Immokalee (nearby) has a great vegetable co-op. We have been spending less than 10 bucks a week for a big bag of fresh vegetables.

[b]THE BAD [/b]

The weather. It gets hot in Florida. BUT--mornings and nights are beautiful.

Shopping. It is 15 miles to the Publix in N. Naples or 7 miles to Winn Dixie in Immokalee. We allegedly will see a Publix early next year -- here in town. Ditto for the Gas station.

Town center businesses. We need more. Of course, we need more people as well.

House Prices. they need to accept reality and just cut the darn prices. They are out of whack with other Naples communities. The 275K houses in Emerson Park- need a 25% reduction--same with the other neighborhoods.

OK--that is my take. We really like it here--it has been a tremendous change for our family--but so far it has been a great move.