Evangelicals, Catholics and abortion

I do not think any of this really constitutes a newsflash. I would be interested in hearing, however, how Orthodoxy performs on the culture of life issues- I really don't know. Have they opened hospitals to serve the poor in this country or overseas, as Catholics and Evangelicals have done? Are their leaders visible in the pro-life movement- as Catholic bishops and Evangelical leaders are? Do they preach against abortion in their homilies, or ask the flock to donate to Orthodox-run pro-life groups or crisis pregnancy centers?
If not, is the excuse that there are so few Orthodox in this country? (Is that really an excuse? I mean, back in the 19th century Catholic nuns built hospitals out of virtually nothing, and in places like Oklahoma City, which essentially did not have a Catholic population.)

Rod:

I get your point, but I think you are painting with too broad a brush. What I see at my parish is a diverse group of individuals trying to live up to the teachings of the church as best they can. Some are a tad more liberal; some very conservative. But all are there to participate in the Eucharist ... that should bridge an awful lot of divides.

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

I don't want the church to tell me I need to perfect in the present life in order to have a chance at the one after.

This isn't intended as a criticism, merely an observation from a reader/sometimes lurker who often feels judged as inferior in the discussions of orthodox practices.

Mary Russell, I know you have a sore spot on this issue, but I'm not going to let you turn this into an Orthodox vs. Catholic thread. I have said above that I don't have nearly enough experience with the Orthodox to make any kind of informed comparison between the two, but based on what I hear from other Orthodox, I suspect the general situation is more or less comparable (more's the pity for both churches). Anybody who seeks to turn this thread into an Orthodox vs. Catholic slapfight will find their posts taken down.

The Pope and the local bishop/archbishop are, perhaps, hierarchically and nominally, in charge of the local parishes, but the pastor reigns supreme at the parish level. If he doesn't want certain subjects preached on, they don't get preached on......even by the associate pastors. It is a direct result of the feudal structuring of the Church. At each level, there is an absolute autocrat who has no canonical obligation to share authority. What the people -- the Christifideli -- want is almost irrelevant.

That doesn't mean there aren't many, many good pastors who act pastorally............but they do so NOT because they are compelled to, but, in my opinion, because they know they are called to be servants, not rulers.

Not all evangelical churches are as consistently pro-life as suggested in these posts, at least in my experience. I have attended a charismatic/evangelical church for the past 16 years and during that time have heard only one sermon on abortion (preached by a visiting pastor!). Several years ago, one of the regular pastors gave a series of 7 or 8 sermons on sexual morality (which overall were pretty good), but he managed to get through them all without once mentioning abortion or contraception. Even evangelical churches that are otherwise rock-solid can be seduced by the culture on these issues.

"It is the Vatican that calls them Catholic."

Yes, as long as they're on the rolls, they're 'Catholic,' but we're talking here about nominal Catholicism (or Orthodoxy or whatever) vs. practicing. Don't try to cloud the issue with anti-Catholic B.S.

I am a recent convert to Catholicism. My wife and I were both confirmed last Easter after having left strong Evangelical backgrounds. We entered the Church for most of the reasons you state, but I have to point out how different my experience has been (as compared to what your post describes). We attend a central Phoenix parish where the pastor demands much more from his congregation than my protestant pastor ever did. A few weeks ago, speaking on the then approaching anniversary of Humanae Vitae, our pastor nearly read the entire encyclical, commented on it and said (I'm paraphrasing): "You cannot now walk out of here and say you don't know the Church's teaching on the use of contraception - you now know. It is a grave sin, and you must confess it." I recall thinking that it was likely that half the church would not return the next Sunday. (Indeed, the crowd was a bit smaller.)

I am thankful I found a parish where the pastor is both orthodox and not afraid to tell his congregation that Church teaching is not a cafeteria line. It is a place where I can raise my family, and I pray that the reforms being pushed by the Holy Father will slowly continue to produce a new generation of priests with the same unyielding and unapologetic devotion to the Truth. There is hope.

Doesn't this depend on where you live, to an extent?

I live in one of the more orthodox Catholic dioceses in the U.S. -- Lincoln, Nebraska -- and our priests speak out about abortion, contraception and other pro-life issues all the time. Consequently or not, at a Lincoln Walk for Life or Life Chain event, there are mostly Catholics in attendance, even though there are far more evangelicals living here.

I know for a fact that the evangelical church that I used to attend before becoming Catholic has dropped all teaching about abortion and premarital sex (and drinking and smoking, too, for that matter). A cousin and her fiance who went to that church were quite openly living together and enjoying premarital sex during their engagement a couple years ago, whereas 14 years ago at the same church, my husband-to-be and I signed oaths that we wouldn't have premarital sex and were closely scrutinized on that issue. Meanwhile, that church's participation in Life Chain has dropped off.

For example, at Life Chain 2006, I was taking photos for the diocesan newspaper. The evangelical church I used to attend was allotted three blocks on one side of the street (congregation numbers over 1,000 people) and not one single person was there. The adjacent four blocks to the east on both sides of the street were designated for a local Catholic parish of about 2,000. They were standing shoulder to shoulder on both sides of the street, and that's just the adults. The kids were in front of them and behind them.

There were other evangelical churches of different denominations that participated in Life Chain, but it's predominantly the Catholics who turn out for that. It's predominantly the Catholics who pray at the abortion clinic. It's predominantly the Catholics who organize and populate the local Walk for Life.

The Will | August 8, 2008 12:09 PM: A few weeks ago, speaking on the then approaching anniversary of Humanae Vitae, our pastor nearly read the entire encyclical, commented on it and said (I'm paraphrasing): "You cannot now walk out of here and say you don't know the Church's teaching on the use of contraception - you now know. It is a grave sin, and you must confess it."

Yup. Same ol' Catholic church.

I simply don't buy Rod's thesis that the opposition to abortion from Catholics is mainly from those who don't go to church. In my experience practising Catholics are much stronger on the principle of going to church than they are on listening to what the bloke in a dress has to say. The church is founded on the principles of apostolic succession but many of the parishioners don't see that as granting the Pope a right to interfere in their private lives.

Sparki, Gradchica, that's very encouraging!

I believe Tony was raised Catholic.

He is somewhat right although I think he's mixing up birth control with abortion. (There are Catholics who, however wrongly, support birth control without supporting abortion) Still only 60% of white Catholics who attend Church weekly believe abortion should be illegal in all/most cases. (I believe this was by the same group that showed a disparity between Evangelicals/Catholics)

http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=295

In another measure 43% of Evangelicals who attended church "less than weekly/never" favored more restrictions on abortion. This was the same percentage as Hispanic Catholics who attend weekly and only 7 points lower than white Catholics who attended weekly.

http://people-press.org/commentary/?analysisid=88

The majority of Catholics I've known are poorly informed in their religion or almost don't see it as a religion. It's simply a culture, like being Italian. This is even true of some Mass-attending Catholics I've known. With Evangelicals if you quit believing in it you quit it. For some reason when Catholics quit believing in the religion they often still see it as "their home" and don't want to be "driven out" from it. Witness Andrew Sullivan.

There are many cafeteria Catholics, many of those in political office.
There are also many cafeteria Protestants of all denominations. They're
listening too much to the hair splitting arguments by feminists and later
day clergy.

The root problem is a lack of faith. People do not believe what the Catholic Church teaches and believe in moral relativism: follow your conscience rather that follow your informed conscience. When Humanae Vitae was signed on July 25, 1968, Catholics who wanted to practice contraceptive sex and remain "good Catholics" embraced this moral relativism while silence reigned from the pupits.

On that date, a new Catholic Church was formed. Sex, population explosion (a myth, the environmental movement were strong forces that led to this "new" understanding of the faith.

Once a Catholic could legitimately act and believe differently than Catholic Teanching on one issue, contraception, the door was wide open to the rejection of other teachings. That is where we are today, 40 years past Humanae Vitae.

The solution is to preach the true meaning of conscienc, the true teaching of the Catholic Church on contraception. The silence to achieve unity or "avoiding causing problems" must stop.

Pope Benedict XVI issued a statement on the 40 anniversary date of Humanae Vitae, however, what he says does not reach the average Catholic.

This problem of the "Cultural Catholic" has major ramifications in our society. As the largest church by membership in the US, Cathoics directly effect who runs our country. An example of the problem is Boston (Phil Lawler book's Faithful Departed lays it out in detail) where Catholic people continue to elect Senator Kennedy, even though he is prochoice.

Again the solution is the one Christ gave us: Preach the Gospel.

Rod, what you're saying is simply not true for those of us who go to traditional masses. We have the Fraternity of St. Peter now where I live and of course they are very familiar with the teachings of the saints, the encyclicals, etc. In Houston there were at least three or four parishes where you'd hear about papal enyclicals and other important documents.


It's true that most local parishes in the United States have squishy priests who are either ignorant of the faith or reject it. That's not necessarily true in the Hispanic world, nor the Philippines, nor Indonesia, nor even every parish in the USA, although the corruption of the last 45 years has affected many priests around the world. The fundamental problem is related to liturgy and the confusion created by ambiguous language in Vatican II, which is slowly being addressed.


But Rod, with all due respect to you, you simply could have stayed at home if there was nothing available to your family in Dallas. I did that for years, or just went to adoration. But I wasn't about to join a schismatic sect that teaches that you can divorce and remarry, generally permits contraception (even at the highest levels of teaching), and even worse things. In Romania, recently, the Orthodox authorities said that a girl who was impregnated by her uncle could get an abortion! If you were in Romania, would you leave Orthodoxy?


I understand that you found a nice parish with some people who seemed sincere and committed. That's a good thing, but it's not as important as your relationship with God himself. You let your feelings get in the way of truth. Would you have left Christ when things were going badly as well? It wasn't fun for those who watched him crucified and buried. There was serious corruption in the early Church as well, as we read in the scriptures. Would you have become a Montanist, like Tertulian, in reaction to such problems?


It was easy to be a Catholic in the 1930s, 40s, and 50s, but there was less glory. To be able to say to God, on the day of Judgement, "I stayed with your Church during its darkest moments" -- that is a gift from the Almighty that we should all treasure. I hope you'll begin to treasure it too, while you still have a chance, instead of returning when you're 60 and the madness has passed. What credit will you receive then? Better late than never, but the question remains: are you really willing to suffer for Christ? I think that's the real test of our commitment.