"Spiritual snobbery" towards the poor

Sorry for my sloppiness: "My eye caught..."

I agree that poor people recently come into money may appear vulgar to those of us more accustomed to wealth. But really, Rod, is this another slow news day? What does it matter? If the "prosperity gospel" is invalid, it can be challenged without attacking those whose only lapse is to have a little less good taste than we ourselves have.

"Should I give everything away and live poorly?" TPSoCal

TR: I'm not a born-again so this might not be applicable to you.

However as I understand it you should be willing to give up everything for Christ, but that doesn't mean you have to do that. Some people can be of service to God in the world. If you use your wealth for good, and inspire others in your class to good, this can be good. Although this depends on you really caring for your neighbor, and God, and not just doing it for show. Now I'm not sure if this is the born-again position so you might have to ask someone in your community.

Also if you feel that money is keeping you from being a good Christian, or you have good reason to think poverty would make you a better Christian, than giving away is worth exploring. However don't make any major life changes on account of anyone you meet on the Internet.

Anyway, it made me vaguely imagine this conspiracy theory. The financial elites are plotting to establish permanent world peace by turning everybody into a materialistic consumer. A sort of Pax Americana Express. .
Posted by: armchair pessimist | August 5, 2008 9:46 AM

Would that really be so bad?

all that glitz is a sign of God's blessing

Imagine if the Roman Baroque had been invented by Calvinists.

For those who have been blessed with material wealth, it seems well to keep in mind that "to whom much has been given, much will be required."

Wealth in and of itself is neutral and only causes problems when it becomes an end in and of iself, i.e., an idol.

I do agree with Rod:

Neither the rich, nor the poor, nor the middle class is exempt from the corruptions of materialism. Nor me. Nor you.

Will a used book or CD do instead of the more expensive brand new one?

Of course, then you have the question of whether or not it is worth supporting the person who put out said book or CD. If it's in print, I buy new -- for the simple reason that I probably want the person in question to be able to publish again.

Richard

Rob G, I have a feeling if you had lived during Biblical times, you would have been very upset with Jesus for turning the water into wine (even "the best wine"). He didn't tell the people at the wedding to just drink the water. He wanted them to enjoy life. Asceticism is simply not Christianity.

If you don't mind, perhaps we can have a back-and-forth dialogue. Your comment is in italics, my response in normal type.

Yes, but he also loves you enough to not leave you as you are.

True, but it's up to Him to change us. We have to be very careful about trying to change ourselves to please Him, when in fact we're just being complicated and introspective. "He will not leave us as we are" is a very true statement. But that might mean He will teach us to be more responsible and faithful in handling our finances, which will increase our wealth so that we may have more to give. I can definitely testify that He has taught me to be more careful with my money, so that I can support my family. He's convicted me of irresponsibility and selfishness. Of course, someday He may convict me of greed, and for some people that is a real problem. But the main thing is we shouldn't be presumptuous about what it means to be pleasing to Him. If you live in a nice home and you think you'll become closer to God by living in a not-so-nice home, I question that.

The NT is replete with warnings against the temptation of wealth. While everyone may not be called to poverty, everyone is called to reject greed and envy, and the unnecessary accumulation of wealth that often accompanies them.

Definitely. But overcoming greed and envy does not necessarily mean to live in poverty, nor does it require us to feel guilty for being middle or upper class and having many possessions. Overcoming is a matter of the heart. If we follow Christ, He deals with our heart. There have been plenty of very wealthy Christians throughout history, who were essential in providing for all sorts of good works, missionary activities, medical establishments, etc. Probably the reason they could be wealthy and yet poured out on the Lord's work is that their hearts had been dealt with.

There are plenty of very poor people who are greedy and envious, even without many possessions. Poverty does not automatically save anyone from their sinful nature. And there are plenty of wealthy people who have been saved from greed, envy, selfishness, and materialism. (I'm not saying God wants everyone to be wealthy, or that poverty is wrong, I'm just rejecting the idea that we should feel guilty if God allows us a comfortable life with many possessions. As long as we live before Him, we don't need to condemn ourselves. He will be faithful to let us know when our hearts have become preoccupied.)

I've found that Protestants have a particular problem with this issue, as in that system asceticism is often mistaken for legalism.

As you've probablly guessed, I'm a Protestant, or more accurately in modern terms an "evangelical." I reject both legalism and asceticism. Both are wrong. The Lord does not teach us to live like Pharisees, nor does He teach us to live like Buddhist monks.

But the simple ascetical rule would be along the lines of "don't buy anything more expensive that what you actually need." ... Decisions like this are simply the application of good stewardship principles.

I agree with you here, but I wouldn't call that ascetical. To me asceticism is described in Colossians 2:20-23, and is rejected by the apostle Paul: "Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 'Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!'? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."

But how many Christians really NEED a Hummer or an Escalade, especially when there are vehicles of equivalent quality for much less money, ones that don't scream "Look at me!"? (As an aside, I once read in an ascetical work that anything that is done with the intention of drawing attention to oneself is probably sinful. That makes a lot of sense.)

The way to be free from drawing attention to yourself is not to worry so much about what you buy or possess, but to focus your attention on Christ. Again, I think the disagreement we have is that you consider an ascetic way of life to be virtuous, and I consider it contrary to Christian doctrine. Of course we shouldn't live ostentatiously or selfishly, but we don't need to go out of our way to live poorly either, as if that will earn us good will from God the Father.

Do you really need a $5,000 TV when a $1,500 one will do just as nicely, even though it may not have all the bells and whistles? Will a used book or CD do instead of the more expensive brand new one? Do I need Tommy Hilfiger jeans or will Levis or Lees be fine?

I wouldn't be so complicated myself. It's not just about us. When you buy an expensive TV, you are helping support all the workers in that company, plus the salesmen and managers of the store, plus the truckers who transport the inventory, plus all the different companies involved in manufacturing the various small parts that make up a TV. I agree that we shouldn't spend much money on "bells and whistles," but we should also remember that someone out there makes those bells and whistles, and probably would appreciate being kept out of poverty by consumers.

These are the type of questions we can ask ourselves, not in a self-condemning way, but in a self-examining one.

I agree, but too much self-examination can actually be a form of pride. I know many people, usually on the political left (and usually single and childless), who uplift poverty as if it were a virtue. I just don't think that their attitude is a Christian one. Being a Christian does not require you to buy poor quality goods because you don't want to offend God. It doesn't require you to move out of your house and buy a cheaper one. (Unless in prayer and fellowship you are led to do so.) The Christian life is a simple one. We love Him, and trust Him to lead us in the ways of righteousness. When we love ourselves too much, whether through consumerism or asceticism, He is faithful to let us know.

"To me asceticism is described in Colossians 2:20-23, and is rejected by the apostle Paul: 'Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules...'"

You are much mistaken here, however, both in your description of asceticism and in your reading of Paul. Asceticism is not about "rules," but is about wrestling with the help of grace against sin, which is something St. Paul encourages. He was not condeming the ascetic struggle, but legalism.

"The way to be free from drawing attention to yourself is not to worry so much about what you buy or possess, but to focus your attention on Christ."

Yet, St. Paul said, "Let a man examine himself...," did he not? That's the essence of the ascetical life.

"I agree, but too much self-examination can actually be a form of pride."

Yes, and as all Christian ascetical writers consider pride the root of all sin, they constantly advise the believer to be aware of this ever-present possibility.

Rob G, thanks for the reply.

Perhaps it's the use of the word "asceticism" that is throwing me off here. "Wrestling with the help of grace against sin" does not seem ascetic to me. I equate asceticism with the attempts to wrestle against sin by applying human concepts of disallowing physical enjoyments. An extreme example would be the desert hermits (Anthony, etc.). A modern less-extreme example would be the commenter above who felt guilty because he had a good life, nice home, etc. Those things don't need to be struggled against because they are not sin, unless they occupy a man's heart.

Your quote of Paul, "Let a man examine himself...", is from 1 Corinthians 11 where he is talking specifically about the Lord's Table. I don't think Paul meant it in the context of self-examination about purchasing necessities (or even luxuries). The verse in context is: "Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself, if he does not judge the body rightly."

Elsewhere Paul strongly rejects self-examination: "But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord." (1 Cor. 4:3-5)

You call self-examination the essence of the ascetical life. I don't see where in the New Testament we are supposed to be "ascetical." One last quote from 1 Corinthians: "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God." (1 Cor. 10:31) We are supposed to be joyful, and thankful for all of God's provisions. Let the Buddhists practice asceticism and live in poverty, thinking that it brings them closer to God (or enlightenment). It doesn't.

"A $1500 TV? Seriously?"

My dad just bought a new Sony 32" LCD TV for $1,100.00. Is that high or low? I don't really know -- I bought my last TV about 8 years ago and it cost me $100.00.

**Perhaps it's the use of the word "asceticism" that is throwing me off here. "Wrestling with the help of grace against sin" does not seem ascetic to me.**

The very word 'ascetic' comes from the Greek word for 'struggle,' if memory serves.

I would have to see the context of I Cor. 4:3-5 to see why Paul is saying that. I'd argue that he certainly isn't contradicting what he says in ch. 11. I don't think the fact that the latter passage has a Eucharistic context makes a difference. It's not like he's saying, "Examine yourself when you approach the Lord's table, but don't worry about it otherwise."

"So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."

True enough, but I don't see how it is contradictory of asceticism.

I think we're called to be "poor in spirit," as the Beatitudes put it. To me, this means cultivating in ourselves a sense of humility and gratitude for all the blessings God permits us to have, including the material; to avoid strictly the sin of elevating material goods beyond their proper value; to share willingly and gladly with others whether from our abundance or from our want; and to strive, to the best of our ability, to perfect that spirit of detachment which caused St. Francis to feel that even his simple habit was a burden he yearned to be free from, so better to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

There is no more virtue in hiding one's avarice and stinginess under a mask of asceticism than in flaunting one's pride and envy in a parade of high-dollar status symbol possessions. A man can go to Hell on brown bread and vegetables just as easily as he can on steak and potatoes, after all--the brown bread eater may be convinced of his spiritual superiority, and become like the Pharisee thanking God he is not like that glutton over there, while the steak-eater may simply be eating what has been placed before him in a spirit of deep thankfulness for God and His bounty.

We should be careful not to judge on appearances. The once poor man who now lives a bit large may be generous beyond belief to those in his former condition, because he has shared their grinding poverty and has sympathy for him; or he may be a miser, determined to protect his new status, looking down on the less fortunate as being unworthy to join him and jealous of the success of others who have more money than he does. We can't know by looking at him which it is.

In mediaeval times, there was largely a zero-sum economy, so, at least in lean years, if one person ate too much, someone else didn't eat. Frugality was therefore moral for straightforward practical reasons, quite apart from debates about whether possessions get in the way of love for God, blah-blah.

It was Calvin who taught that prosperity is good, and that it is just the love of money that is the root of all evil. However, Calvin was speaking for the nascent capitalist classes - the merchants and urban artisans - who no longer lived in a zero-sum world. Calvinism never caught on among the peasantry in France, and it took a long time to do so in Scotland and Holland.

However, it is at least arguable that, with the looming resource shortage, and the fact that externalities (air, sea, etc.) are now seen to be finite, the world is returning to a zero-sum state. In view of the antagonism between the Green movement and ultraconservative Catholicism, it is ironic that they are here among the few parties that see eye to eye.

"A man can go to Hell on brown bread and vegetables just as easily as he can on steak and potatoes, after all--the brown bread eater may be convinced of his spiritual superiority, and become like the Pharisee thanking God he is not like that glutton over there, while the steak-eater may simply be eating what has been placed before him in a spirit of deep thankfulness for God and His bounty."

Very true. In addition, we must remember that asceticism involves not just the stomach, but also the guarding of the eyes and ears as well; in sum, the struggle against all sinful passions.

Making merchandise of God's people... Particularly hurtful in teaching people tghat if they "sow a seed" (to them, of course) they can basically buy a healing from God.

Justin Peters speaks eloquently on this topic and is considered by some to be an expert on the health and wealth teachers.

You can see an overview of his seminar here: http://www.justinpeters.org and be sure to watch "demo." He gave this presentation at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Mr. Peters is also uniquely positioned by God to speak on this as he has cerebral palsy, but contends with the apostle Paul, "My grace is sufficient for thee..."

He gave his full seminar at my church and comes highly recommended by my pastor, Dr. John MacArthur.

treebeard, while I appreciate your intent, I must say that your understanding of asceticism is quite faulty (as was mine when I was an Evangelical Protestant). Might I recommend you read a great little book, 'The Illumined Heart,' by Frederica Mathewes-Green, to get a better handle on it?

Rob G, thanks for your recommendation. I will look for FMG's book. (If you have the time and motivation, could you say more about your spiritual journey away from Protestantism? I'm interested.)

Christine, thanks for your comment. Well put.

Unfortunately I have to leave the computer for awhile ("and there was much rejoicing"). I look forward to seeing how this thread has progressed later tonight.

"If you have the time and motivation, could you say more about your spiritual journey away from Protestantism? I'm interested."

Treebeard, drop me an email at vent_61@hotmail.com. I'll be happy to share that with you. I'd do it here with no problem, but it's rather off-topic.

There is an opposite danger of "reverse spiritual snobbery": those poor people don't know any better than to use their newfound relative wealth badly. Since that kind of wisdom is a spiritual attribute, to discount its existence in people because of their prior economic or social status is also a form of snobbery.

So the real answer is probably to view others with humility and generosity as fellow sinners in need of and benefiting from grace, rather than an overstrained excuse-making for those "poor people who can't help themselves" OR a negative attitude toward "irresponsibility" in others.

TPSoCal

You ask a good question and, after all solf examination is the core of repentence. is your money a blessing? The answer can only be answered by asking another one, are you a blessing? If your money only improves your life then it is without a oubt a spiritual curse. If it improves the life of your immediate family then it is better, maybe neutral, maybe not, but the real question is is it a blessing to people who have nothing much to do with you? Do your alms help others. Is it carefully managed to do good in the world as well as to support you and your family? Work on answering those questions. Talk to someone whose righteousness is an inspiration to you (I'd suggest a priest, but thats my background, yours may vary. A Rabbi might be of good help to you here, but find someone with wisdom who can help you understand yourself and your relationship with God). Answer those questions and if money is not a blessing to others then make it one.

Treebeard:

I'm curious to know what you think of the life of St. Francis of Assisi?

Was he not Christ-like, i.e., living a life modeled on Christ?

I think he was, but I wonder what you think?

By the way, thank you Allen. Would that more people understood that point.

I would have to disagree with treebeard's use of Paul's writing's though. He knew that the powers that were (Romans) would never accept the message of Jesus as Jesus taught it. He had to adapt and bend it to make it fit, without giving up too much of the source. In the end, he accomplished little of either. That's why Paul's works should be of little value to those following Jesus. Occasionally, there is a gem, a little nugget of gold. But by and large, Paul's writings are Paul's attempt to make the teachings of Jesus more accessible to those who could spread it. In short, to make the teachings of Jesus something that they are not.

If you only read what Jesus himself said and did in the gospels (particularly the synoptics), you find a completely different picture. You see a jesus that is strongly anti-materialism, anti-consumerism, and anti-wealth. Try it - buy a second copy of the Bible, cut out everything that is not Jesus talking, and give it a read. Sometimes, less is more.

As for "spiritual snobbery" and the poor, did or did not Jesus preach humility? The poo who have misspent what wealth they have gained are to be pitied, for sure. But not because they were poor, or because they misspent the money. They are to be pitied because they could not see beyond the money to God.

P.S. - Rod, I finally got the book you recommended some time ago, Mountain of Silence. I haven't finished it, but you were right. It was very much worth the price. And there are countless parallels between the Orthodox monks on Mt. Athos (and other places) and mainstream Buddhism. I like what I'm reading, and I look forward to finishing it.

It seems that so many American Christians want to make excuses for their lifestyles by bringing up people like Lydia, Abraham, etc. in the Bible as exs. of godly people with wealth. Well. I can't imagine either zipping around in an SUV or needing a huge, flat-screen TV in order to serve God. Let's think in terms of degree. There is still a lot of hostility out there to books such as "Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger", because it hits so close to home.

WAIT! I forgot to ask? (or state) Is this guy saying that poor people have poor taste, the need to OVER-do their do's and face paint, have no sense of restraint or social morality? These folks seem to be delirious with materialism, not the ways of Jesus! And not all were "poor". Why do the shows on TBN preach material wealth? THAT is what I hear them preach every single time I tune in-which is fairly often with only a couple available channels. "Get Jesus-get the blessings (and they do mean monetary blessings,they supply the qualifiers) "Getting Jesus" means sending the cash for whatever goofy "mission" of the moment. I absolutely cannot believe that anyone would send money when Benny Hinn and others actually say "....send the money to me!"