What do converts want?

I know as a COnvert to Catholicism that is waht I want. That does not mean there is not room for such things as THE WAY, or the Charismatic movement etc etc. However I would like proper Liturgy, a sound CCD education, etc to be the norm and not have to go searching for it around town

In short, they don't want less Orthodoxy, they want more Orthodoxy.

The things you hit on make it sound like they want more Orthodox practice. The thing is, those desires - beauty, a stable tradition, complex worship practices - could be fulfilled just as easily in Orthodox Judaism as Orthodox Christianity. Hell, Shinto would work fine, for that matter. So I have to suspect that some of these converts wanted a smelly, belly, dusty religion, so they picked the one with the mythology they were already familiar with, and as long as the church is smelly, and belly, and has the right iconography, they'll be satisfied, and in the absence of any particular interest, they'd be happy to let the rest of it drift towards convenience.

In short, I think your enthusiasm for the broad appeal of small-o orthodox practice and your idealization of the orthodox as a remnant preserving the idea of doctrine-that-matters are somewhat at odds.

Senescent,

I can only speak for myself, but any "mythology" without Christ would absolutely *not* do. As a convert from protestantism to Orthodoxy, I wanted *more* of Christ, not less.

Interesting question. I'm not sure I would qualify under your criteria as a "convert," as I was raised Methodist but was unchurched during my early adulthood. But I have had what I think of as a "long conversion," with some white light experiences, much time in spiritual deserts, and then mostly slow spiritual growth to where I am now. (We'll see what happens next.)

What I want is similar to what you describe. I want worship with soaring music, a variety of theological perspectives in the pulpit to challenge me, and a community of fellow travelers to be in company with. And I want sufficient silence in community for us to feel God's mystery. With the music, my wants have changed drastically from charismatic gospel traditions (African-American and bluegrass) along with some contemporary worship music to mostly choral and classical with chant mixed in.

To the point about who gives to the parish, your description is quite typical, regardless of denomination or tradition. 10%-15% of members generally give upwards of 90% of tithes and offerings. No matter what pastors and stewardship experts try, nothing seems to be able to break that pattern consistently. I don't know if it is theological, spiritual, or just familial and historic bonds to the local church, but it is consistent across the board.

I'm journeying east, hoping in God's time to be received into Orthodoxy (closest church is 60 miles so hard to be part of parish life; and so far my husband is not with me on this). What I want is 1) a God who is truly good and loves mankind, 2) a theology that is whole and beautiful and does not have to make excuses or loopholes for God, 3) Sacramental life- the Real Presence without having to know exactly how it happens, and the reality of all the material symbols; 4) a purpose for the church in this life, and communion with God and others in living that out; 5) recognition that people are imperfect, and help with practices and guidance that actually beckon me to love better along the way.

Rod,

I read an article a few years back, I can't remember exactly where, but it studied different denominations in America, and which ones were growing and which ones were dwindling in congregants. As I recall, the two main factors, that were determined to be the common causal factors in which religions were growing were:

1) The religion preached a consistent, unflinching and unchanging,firm set of doctrines, and principles, especially firm moral standards.

2) The religion required, asked for significant, sacrifice, participation and commitment on the part of its adherents.

Sacrifice develops or produces commitment, and reverence. Effort and action build genuine devotion, belief, and faith.

It reminds me of the Lord when he says in the New Testament: If any man shall keep these sayings, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of mine own self, or of my Father who sent me."

Conviction comes from action and sacrifice, and when action and sacrifice are required by a denomination, they produce that conviction.
Our doubting, fallen, hearts and minds, would however prefer, the conviction first, because that doesn't require faith, which is the Lord's wayand requires us to do the work of believing and trusting, before we have knowlegde or a reassurance of our faith, which for a human being, is some of the hardest work there can be.

I think the information came from the research of Rodney Stark, the well-known sociologist of religion here in the U.S. If it wasn't that it may have been the Pew Forum on Religion.

I left Catholicism some time ago and am still searching for a church home. What I want in a church is simple: 1) proclaims the good news of God's Grace (my understanding of this is somewhere between Lutheranism and Calvinism) and 2) will believe the same thing tomorrow as it does today. You don't get that in post-Vatican 2 Catholicism. I am VERY attracted to Orthodoxy but find much of the doctrines/practices confusing - for example they don't seem to veer so far into Mariolatry as the Romans (I can accept the "Mary is the Church writ large" explanations), but you have things like the Icon of the Protection of the Theotokos (I think) where a Marian icon saved a monastary? I realize it's impossible to find ANY church without a significant amount of folk devotion, but some of the stuff in Orthodoxy is rather large to swallow.

This November will mark nine years since I converted to Orthodoxy. I was raised in the Church of the Nazarene, but found in the Orthodox Church a depth of worship and presence of God I never knew could be possible outside of a revival. Leading up to my conversion, I was enlisted in the Army, first serving at Fort Drum, NY, then because I wanted to see more of the world, I served in Seoul, Korea. I thought God wanted me to go to Korea to prepare to become a missionary--boy was I wrong.

Shortly after arriving in Korea, I sought some instruction from my chaplain in order to prepare for studying religion at Eastern Nazarene College. He obliged, and he introduced me to the Fathers of the early Church, Polycarp, Clement, Anthony and Athanasius--people I had never heard of in Sunday School. After six months he invited me to the Greek Orthodox cathedral Saint Nicholas with him and his family. My chaplain was a Presbyterian, but because of the changes occuring at that time in his church regarding increased acceptance of homosexual clergy, he had begun a few years earlier to search for a church that he believed would not bow to the pressures of modern culture. He settled on the Orthodox Church, specifically the OCA. His wife and son at the time had already converted, but he had to bide his time carefully lest he lose his endorsement and thus his job.

I enjoyed the Divine Liturgy, in spite of the fact that the only English-speaking priest had a thick Korean accent. Unfortunately, the bishop ended the English services due to low attendence, but I still found I could follow and enjoy the Korean service.

My conversion was mostly of the mind at first. I read various pamphlets and small books about Sola Scriptura, which I understood at the time to be a core Nazarene belief. Once that concept had been shown to me to be completely inaccurate, I began to wonder if I might become Orthodox. I never lost my love of the Church of the Nazarene, I felt I owed my existence to it, but I remember at that time I thought that I might eventually become Orthodox. It was not too long after that when I realized that I no longer had a choice--it was either become Orthodox or remain Nazarene, and by so doing deny the truth of all that I had learned. It was a strange moment, to realize that what I had learned forced me to convert, or else lie to myself for the rest of my life. I was like a fish who had been caught by the hook, and could stay in the water only by denying the steel barb piercing my cheek. In a way, that was for the best, becuase I realized there was no point in being afraid to venerate icons, or cross myself, etc. I quickly realized that I missed doing these things I had never done before.

Around the same time I recall happening upon an interview of Frederica Mathewes-Green I think on some morning show. She was talking about converting to Orthodoxy. She was asked about what draws people to the Orthodox Church, and she said that she thinks that men in particular are drawn to Orthodoxy because of the order of the Liturgy. That resonated with me because as a Soldier my life was very regimented.

Another aspect of Orthodoxy that drew me was the depth of the services--I felt like I was being treated like an adult, rather than like a child. The more I learned about Orthodoxy the deeper it got, the thicker it got. In a word, Orthodoxy is "crunchy."

I will never believe the teachings of either Catholicism or Orthodoxy, and, meaning no offense to any of you who do, I would even say they strike me as an exquisitely logical systems built on delusional premises. But even I am moved by the beauty of the services and the sense of "place" the Church can create.

Brandon Chase Bell:

"Why Strict Churches are Strong" by Laurence Iannaccone, perhaps?

As a convert to Catholicism I think the relevant question is 'what does God want?' I came to the conclusion that because the Roman Catholic Church is the Church of Christ, he wanted me to join it, so I did.

I was nominally raised a Catholic and studied Zen in college, but I finally converted to Judaism. I converted to Judaism because I found the study of Talmud the defining spiritual experience of my life.

I want to say that I respect Catholicism and Christianity and Zen Buddhism. My conversion had nothing to do with any lack in those religions. I simply feel more comfortable in Judaism.

Strangely, since I converted, I find myself more in tune with the sister religions and other spiritual practices as well.

I don't know how to explain this, but I love studying the ancient texts in their original forms rigorously, as if every word and every interpretation mattered. It's not for everybody, but it works for me.

I could slip back into my zealot phase and tell you about my conversion from Catholicism to Orthodoxy, but it is very similar to everyone elses. I won't tell you about how I was one of the o"rthodox Catholics and how I looked down my nose on all the liberal Catholics who wouldn't take the time to learn their Baltimore catechism and how I personally corrected Scott Hahn on the many flaws in his books. I could tell you how elated I was to discover Orthodoxy and found the "true and ancient faith" and how I beat up all of my "o"rthodox Catholic ex-friends about not converting with me.

I could tell you about how I moved 100 miles back to my hometown and how frustrated I was leaving my EOC-Antiochian parish to a small GOA parish where the ethnics knew very little about their faith and never showed up on time. Especially the other choir members with their beautiful voices. I could tell you about my losing my business and then my divorce and then all my possessions in Katrina and how humbled I was. Then I could tell you how I found out how hard it was for me to stay on the path and how it led me to understand human frailty.

I now live in a town in Mississippi 100 miles away from the nearest Orthodox church and I am married to a Southern Baptist. We attend a Disciples of Christ Church most Sundays when we don't travel to the Orthodox church, which is unfortunately rare. The people at the DOC church are truly wonderful Christians and the pastor is a better orator than almost any Orthodox priest I have listened to. But the liturgists are Episcopal wannabe's and I just want to tell them that if they want true litury to skip the Anglicanism and Catholicism and go to Orthodoxy. But I truly enjoy the company of these people.

My wife and I listen to a lot of Thomas Hopko CD's and she has never found a point that he makes with which she can disagree. We read from the OS Bible and she never disagrees with any of the comments. She agreed to have a big fat Greek wedding in my hometown. I have had many people in my new city who have heard of the Orthodox church and have told me they wish they had a little bit of Orthodoxy in their churches. Especially the ones who have left their churches and no longer attend. My dream is to start a mission church in my new hometown, but having previously been a high brow Christian who towed the line and was pretty pissed at anyone else who couldn't fall in line, and now a still repentent humble backslider after my divorce, I don't feel worthy of starting one. I wish I could convince one of the "o"rthodox Protestant pastors I have me to check out the AOC Western Rite.

An interesting observation: My DOC church led a mission team to refurbish a DOC church in the 9th Ward in New Orleans. The pastor of the Black church, in his 60's, and his wife and a few parishoners came to my DOC church and joined us for the worship service. The choir director chose Kum By Yah as one of the songs. None of 9th Warders were familiar with the words or the tune. They led our congregation in one of their spiritual hymns. After about five minutes they stopped singing and jokingly said they weren't near finished but they understood that we couldn't keep up with them much longer.

I think different converts are looking for different things. Take you for example, Rod. Given all the trolling of liberal Catholicism you've been doing lately, I'd say you're looking for Lefebvrism, except without all the paranoia and high camp.